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Rococho Ranger
Rangers of the One
9
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
Right, I've played on and off since the beginning of EvE and the system of Tech2 BP has changed before I really got into research etc. I have looked into this many ways but all I find is out of date articles and small amendments saying that the BPO lottery with R&D agents does not exist any more. I'm fully aware of invention, what it entails, it's benefits and it's limitations.
All that said, my questions are thus... 1, Is it still possible to get tech2 BPO from NPC's? and 2, If so, how does one do this?
Oh, and this only applies to few people on here, but I'm not a newbee so please don't reply if you intend to be sarcastic and unhelpful. |
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
165
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Your answer is no, you cannot get a T2 BPO from an NPC. The T2 lottery ended in 2005/2006 if I remember correctly and that was the only way to do it. Or if you were a member of BOB you could have one delivered to your hanger by CCP. |
Rococho Ranger
Rangers of the One
9
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Toku Jiang wrote:Your answer is no, you cannot get a T2 BPO from an NPC. The T2 lottery ended in 2005/2006 if I remember correctly and that was the only way to do it. Or if you were a member of BOB you could have one delivered to your hanger by CCP.
Thanks for the confirmation. |
Rococho Ranger
Rangers of the One
9
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Posted - 2013.02.22 17:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Though I'm guessing that the existing BPO were not removed? so their owners have the significant advantage...
Oh well. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
567
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Posted - 2013.02.22 18:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rococho Ranger wrote:Though I'm guessing that the existing BPO were not removed? so their owners have the significant advantage...
Oh well.
Don't start this, please please please don't start this. You will get into a huge, wasted argument between the leave,my,t2 bpo alone group, and the all t2 bpos are the spawn of Satan group. It's not good. Just back away now.
But to point out a few minor details...
Assuming a t2 ballistic control bpo of 100 pe, it takes 3+ days to make 100 mods. On the other hand, I can easily invent enough bpcs to run 10 jobs a day, producing 100 mods each day.
Note copying a t2 bpo takes longer than manufacturing on it.
So basically, on an individual mod basis, bpo comes out a head. On a volume basis, invention is far supperior. |
Rococho Ranger
Rangers of the One
9
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Posted - 2013.02.23 17:02:00 -
[6] - Quote
oh don't worry, I was just thinking aloud. I know better than to truly complain about things that start such pointless arguments.
Besides, The change passed beneath my notice for so long that it's clearly not detrimental to me. |
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
204
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Posted - 2013.02.23 20:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rococho Ranger wrote:oh don't worry, I was just thinking aloud. I know better than to truly complain about things that start such pointless arguments.
Besides, The change passed beneath my notice for so long that it's clearly not detrimental to me.
I like you a refreshing change from the "Waah I can't make money from my invention jobs so get rid of T2 BPO's CeeCeePee!" |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2848
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Posted - 2013.02.24 02:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rococho Ranger wrote:Though I'm guessing that the existing BPO were not removed? so their owners have the significant advantage...
Oh well.
And pay through the nose for it. It's not a big deal and doesn't affect the profitability of an invention setup (because the volumes produced are small in most markets and inventors can trivially avoid the markets where the T2 BPO produced volumes are significant). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
shar'ra matcevsovski
white knightess
352
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Posted - 2013.02.24 06:16:00 -
[9] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
And pay through the nose for it. It's not a big deal and doesn't affect the profitability of an invention setup (because the volumes produced are small in most markets and inventors can trivially avoid the markets where the T2 BPO produced volumes are significant).
batphoning brewlar kuwakei shar'ra phone home |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2850
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Posted - 2013.02.24 06:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
And pay through the nose for it. It's not a big deal and doesn't affect the profitability of an invention setup (because the volumes produced are small in most markets and inventors can trivially avoid the markets where the T2 BPO produced volumes are significant).
batphoning brewlar kuwakei
Romeo Foxtrot, Shall We Dance? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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Carniflex
StarHunt
35
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Posted - 2013.02.25 08:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Rococho Ranger wrote:Though I'm guessing that the existing BPO were not removed? so their owners have the significant advantage...
Oh well. Don't start this, please please please don't start this. You will get into a huge, wasted argument between the leave,my,t2 bpo alone group, and the all t2 bpos are the spawn of Satan group. It's not good. Just back away now. But to point out a few minor details... Assuming a t2 ballistic control bpo of 100 pe, it takes 3+ days to make 100 mods. On the other hand, I can easily invent enough bpcs to run 10 jobs a day, producing 100 mods each day. Note copying a t2 bpo takes longer than manufacturing on it. So basically, on an individual mod basis, bpo comes out a head. On a volume basis, invention is far supperior.
Nothing prevents you from producing from that BPO in addition to doing invention.
Theres no competiton between BPO's and invention. Invention just fills whatever demand there is after the BPO's putting a cap at BPO profitablily at rought at the invention cost (after the datacores, BPC and possiblily decryptors, additional mat cost from negative ME, etc). That, in my opinion, can be called a "signficant advantage".
Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... *THWONK!* GOT the bastard. |
shar'ra matcevsovski
white knightess
353
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Posted - 2013.02.25 14:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
there we go, there is always one who doesnt get it.
Carniflex wrote: Theres no competiton between BPO's and invention. Invention just fills whatever demand there is after the BPO's putting a cap at BPO profitablily at rought at the invention cost (after the datacores, BPC and possiblily decryptors, additional mat cost from negative ME, etc). That, in my opinion, can be called a "signficant advantage".
Having an advantage of something that you have to pay for (tbh quite a bit when it comes to T2 BPO`s) sounds like a normal thing to me. Also there is a competetion between Invention and BPO`s (2 different methods leading to the same result = competition) But there is not necesarry a competition between a Inventors and BPO-Owners because, they can be both like you said. shar'ra phone home |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
485
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Posted - 2013.02.25 14:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rococho Ranger wrote:Though I'm guessing that the existing BPO were not removed? so their owners have the significant advantage...
Oh well. Well really there is not.
T2 BPO's while some are actually used, are really nothing but collectors items.
If a T2 BPO owner actually wants to make isk, what is their best option?
You can manufacture from it making decent profit for a couple years, or you can sell the BPO for more than that 2 years worth of profit, and not have to "Manufacture" anything.
So if you can make way more selling the BPO than actually using it to manufacture from, why keep it?
As I said, it is a collectors item. If you have many billions siting there doing nothing, why not buy some rare collectors items like T2 BPO's. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2887
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Posted - 2013.02.26 01:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
Carniflex wrote:Nothing prevents you from producing from that BPO in addition to doing invention.
Theres no competiton between BPO's and invention. Invention just fills whatever demand there is after the BPO's putting a cap at BPO profitablily at rought at the invention cost (after the datacores, BPC and possiblily decryptors, additional mat cost from negative ME, etc). That, in my opinion, can be called a "signficant advantage".
For any given amount of capital, Invention earns more. Period.
The only way BPOs have an advantage over invention is if you ignore the opportunity cost of tying up all your capital in that BPO.
And the existence of BPOs doesn't affect the profitability of the invention market (as there are no significant barriers to switching production away from BPO dominated items*), so there's no competition between BPOs and Inventors.
*Those items whose demand is entirely filled by BPO supply. Per CCP Diagoras, ~80% of Expanded Cargohold IIs are produced by BPOs, and yet they're still profitable to invent because Invention sets the price as soon as there is the tiniest bit more demand than what the BPOs can fill. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Kodama Ikari
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
14
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Posted - 2013.03.01 03:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:[quote=Carniflex]
For any given amount of capital, Invention earns more. Period.
The only way BPOs have an advantage over invention is if you ignore the opportunity cost of tying up all your capital in that BPO.
True, but many people are willing to ignore that opportunity cost (which doesn't automatically make them "bad" or "inefficient" - there are many circumstances or reasons for not being completely invested).
BPOs come out way ahead in terms of the opportunity cost of clicking. Even if its slow compared to invention, the amount of effort required to keep that BPO churning is trivially small. There's also zero need to think ahead of time. There's no denying that they're a tremendous boon if you happen to have one, and don't want to take the time/effort/risk required in leveraging all your assets to make isk. That said, the low volume they produce means their impact on the market is usually negligible, which would otherwise be the only real justification for taking them away. |
RubyPorto
SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2918
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Posted - 2013.03.01 03:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kodama Ikari wrote:True, but many people are willing to ignore that opportunity cost (which doesn't automatically make them "bad" or "inefficient" - there are many circumstances or reasons for not being completely invested).
BPOs come out way ahead in terms of the opportunity cost of clicking.
Only if you have a (IMHO) unreasonable cost/click. Manufacturing Caps and JFs takes negligibly more clicks/month and produce a fantastically higher rate of return per billion invested. Hell, Researching Capital/Component BPOs does better on both clicks/month and return/billion. T2 BPOs are regularly selling in the neighborhood of a .8% rate of return (10 year payback) or worse.
Quote:Even if its slow compared to invention, the amount of effort required to keep that BPO churning is trivially small. There's also zero need to think ahead of time.
Since when do BPO owners not have to build components?
Quote:There's no denying that they're a tremendous boon if you happen to have one, and don't want to take the time/effort/risk required in leveraging all your assets to make isk.
Buying one/Not selling it (both are equivalent) is leveraging all (or at least a huge amount of) your assets to make ISK. They are a tremendous boon if you have one, absolutely. But the boon is in the price for which you can sell it, and that boon applies similarly to all rare/discontinued items.
Quote:That said, the low volume they produce means their impact on the market is usually negligible, which would otherwise be the only real justification for taking them away.
Agreed. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
Prekaz
The Gentlemen's Corporation
25
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
The very best way to make money from T2 BPOs is to buy them, and then sell them for more than you bought them for.
Any other use of them is going to give you a far lower ROI than you could be earning with the amount of money tied up in the asset.
If I sink 20 billion into a T2 BPO and use it for building, I can probably expect to make about 300m a month from that.
Do you know how hard I would have to try to make ONLY a 300m return on 20 billion in a month doing, literally, anything else in Eve? I would basically have to go out of my way to sabotage myself to make my money perform that badly while doing T1 manufacturing, Invention, T3 manu, or station trading.
About the only time this isn't true is when you have such a ludicrously large sum of money that you simply cannot put it all to work through other means. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1835
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:09:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm curious, if you have 10-200b to invest, what gives a better rate of return than a t2 BPO?
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Pwnzer
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
I haven't run the numbers in a long time, but the building and selling Titans was a big ROE for us in the past. Very risky as far as investments go though. |
Prekaz
the gentlemen's corporation
26
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote: I'm curious, if you have 10-200b to invest, what gives a better rate of return than a t2 BPO?
I'll assume you mean "investing in a BPO for the sake of production" since I think I covered resale already.
10-200 is a pretty wide range.
You will have NO problem outperforming any BPO in the 10 billion range doing something else.
The "classic" pricing model for most T2 bpos put their sell value at around 5 years worth of manufacture profits. This has been increasing, really - lately you can expect to pay closer to 7-8, from what I've seen happening in the Sell forum.
So, using the generous 5-year estimate, if you pay 10b for a T2 BPO, you can expect to earn ~167 million a month from using it in production.
Do you really need to ask what gives a better rate of return than that? Because the answer is "almost anything" - including "lowly" T1 production. :D
Seriously, station trading, invention, T1 manu, T3 manu - you name it, it will outperform that.
200 is a different story, strictly because you might have trouble scaling other activities to that amount of capital -however, using the same 5 year pricing model, that's still only ~3.33 billion of MANUFACTURING profit per month.
I had a T3 manu operation that turned out more than that per month with a fraction of the capital investment. There's definitely potential for speculative investments/inflation shield
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