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fukier
RISE of LEGION
844
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Posted - 2013.02.23 16:44:00 -
[1] - Quote
So now that retribution 1.1 is out and the affects of armor tanking 1.5 felt i would like to continue the rebalance by making armor tanking 2.0
What this entails is:
1. fixing the disparity between active tank bonus and resistance bonus
2. rebalance of armor plates
3. rebalance of armor rigs (trimarks and resist armor rigs)
So now on the 1. and how to fix this.
first thing is i would take away the 5% bonus to resistance blanket skill and replace it with 5% bonus to passive resist mods. This would make your average passive resist mod as good as an active
Second i would make the 7.5% bonus also reduce the cap usage for local reps. so on a ship like the brutix which is extremely cap heavy (i.e. mwd blasters tackle and rep) would make it so you use much less cap charges during a fight.
This would make the 5% bonus to resist no longer op and would make the 7.5% bonus actually useful.
2. rebalance of armor plates:
Fozz did a good job to start with by reducing mass by 20% on small 50,200,800 mm plates and adding in the honeycomb skill 5% reduction in plate mass per level. but also admitted plates like 50mm are useless.
So how about making the 50,200,800mm plates useful but also boosting the 100,400,1600 plates too (that way oversized expanders for armor actually means something)
first i would break the two kinds of plate into two separate categories 1 being light plates and 2 being heavy plates.
so 50,200,800 mm plates are now renamed light plates and 100,400,1600mm plates are now named heavy plates.
Then i would make the fittings for the plates into 3 categories being small medium and large (also making so you cant realistically fit a medium plate on a small ship or a large plate on a medium ship like armor reps)
I would increase light plateGÇÖs armor addition to 75% of their current heavy versions
so a small light armor plate (currently a 50mm) would now add 141 armor
To offset this i would increase the heavy plates armor by 25% and also its mass by 25% so that means a new small heavy plate will add 235 armor but also add 46875 kg of mass.
What this would do is make two tiers of armor plates one for good hp amount and great agility and the second heavy hp increase but heavy mass increase.
3. i would take the mass penalty for armor rigs (resistance and trimarks) and make it so its 5% for speed and 5% for agility. that way at skill level v for armor rigging you are only slower by 2.5% and have 2.5% less agility.
so what do you guys think would this be the final nail in armor/shield balance or do you think this is not enough?
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2013.02.23 16:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
intriguing ideas however making passive resists so good on any ship is too OP my suggestion is they should replace all resist bonuses to armour/shield HP this way armour repping ships will be better at repping than ships with resist bonuses on them. And further clarifies a ships role as to whether using buffer tank or a repping ship.
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fukier
RISE of LEGION
844
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Posted - 2013.02.23 16:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:intriguing ideas however making passive resists so good on any ship is too OP my suggestion is they should replace all resist bonuses to armour/shield HP this way armour repping ships will be better at repping than ships with resist bonuses on them. And further clarifies a ships role as to whether using buffer tank or a repping ship.
that too is an idea and one i would support.
but i kinda like the idea of having to select which resistance you are going to tank. gives you options as a player.
also this would make the 5% bonus to armor ships slightly better then the 5% bonus to shield ships as the energy adaptive would now be as good as an invul.
i dont mind the bonus being slight op due to the ships usually haveing bad speed and agility to offset.
but yeah making the bonus be for hp amount would work too At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
kerradeph
THORN Syndicate THORN Alliance
18
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Posted - 2013.02.23 19:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
I just want the active bonus to apply to remote repairs too. then ships with active bonuses would actually get that bonus in fleet operations. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
844
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Posted - 2013.02.23 19:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
kerradeph wrote:I just want the active bonus to apply to remote repairs too. then ships with active bonuses would actually get that bonus in fleet operations.
hey i thought and argued the same damn thing till i was blue in the face...
fozz said that currently logi RR is op and he does not want to make even more ships op...
so unfortuanly thats not a current option... (unless kil2 convinces him otherwise)
if anyof you guys are going to fanfest can you get fozzie real drunk and get him to make it so that it does work?
that would be sick At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
539
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Posted - 2013.02.23 19:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
1. Balance ships, not bonuses. 2. Making "light" plates more useful sounds sensible, but there's no real need for more HP on "heavy" plates. 3. Maybe. Let the current changes settle in first. Then we'll have a better idea of what mix of "blanket changes" and "individual fixes for individual ships" is needed. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
844
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Posted - 2013.02.23 20:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:1. Balance ships, not bonuses. 2. Making "light" plates more useful sounds sensible, but there's no real need for more HP on "heavy" plates. 3. Maybe. Let the current changes settle in first. Then we'll have a better idea of what mix of "blanket changes" and "individual fixes for individual ships" is needed.
good points...
and yes balance the ships... but i stil think that some of the bonus needs to bee looked at in conjunction with the ships... to me they go hand in hand.
reason i was looking to boost heavy plates is that according to fozz armor tanking is supposed to be about overrized plates. and if you compare shield to armor both ships currently are able to oversize thier extenders but only shield can oversize thier active reps.
so increaseing the hp for heavy plates to me would be a way to oversize armor extenders.
though yeah it will take a while for the "dust" to settle but i allways think its a good idea to get a discussion going. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
823
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Posted - 2013.02.24 02:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
+1 from me! Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
337
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Posted - 2013.02.24 08:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
I would be very careful about splitting the speed reduction on armor rigs into speed and agility. Don't forget that two stats are always greater than the sum of their parts.
100 + 50% + 50% = 225
The reduction in agility would greatly affect a ships mobility and it would take longer to align. It would also be easier to kite it.
The passive resist module increase vs blanket resist increase is a funny one. Overall, I think it would ads more tank that it currently does to ships like the Abaddon, (because ENAM2s would become more powerful than Invulnerable2s,) while shield tankers would struggle but would probably get leas tank.
I agree with the "balance ships not bonuses" principal. If a ship has a resist bonus, it could probably use less buffer to balance it out more. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
46
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Posted - 2013.02.24 09:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would personally leave the resist ships as they currently are, and swap the rep bonus for a raw HP bonus. Thus most Amarr ships would be more likely to add additional plates. And most Gallente ships would be more likely to add resistance mods. Bringing their EHP to about the same level and giving them both a way to truly participate in a larger fleet.
Perhaps there will also need to be further balancing on ships within Amarr and Gallente, where some Amarr ships will get a Rep Bonus for Duration, and some Gallente a Rep bonus for amount(or vice versa) in order to fulfil the role of 1v1 PvP/PVE
Or give a mixed Bonuses reduce the resistance bonus and add the Rep duration bonus for Amarr, with Reduced Bonus HP and rep amount for Gallente, thus not pigeon holing any ship into PvP or PvE
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Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
337
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Posted - 2013.02.24 11:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:I would personally leave the resist ships as they currently are, and swap the rep bonus for a raw HP bonus. Thus most Amarr ships would be more likely to add additional plates. And most Gallente ships would be more likely to add resistance mods. Bringing their EHP to about the same level and giving them both a way to truly participate in a larger fleet.
Perhaps there will also need to be further balancing on ships within Amarr and Gallente, where some Amarr ships will get a Rep Bonus for Duration, and some Gallente a Rep bonus for amount(or vice versa) in order to fulfil the role of 1v1 PvP/PVE
Or give a mixed Bonuses reduce the resistance bonus and add the Rep duration bonus for Amarr, with Reduced Bonus HP and rep amount for Gallente, thus not pigeon holing any ship into PvP or PvE
The problem with swapping active bonus for raw EHP bonus is its just the other side of the same coin. While it would add more ehp which is useful in fleets, active solo fights would suffer as would PvE fits. Its not solving anything.
I dont see a ship with a resist bonus as unfair, but when it is compared to ships with other bonuses, the resists gives that ship a universal edge. Resists basically apply to everything, while other tanking options don't.
Realistically, a direct comparrison would be a rep bonus (both RR and and local,) as well as raw EHP bonus. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
46
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Posted - 2013.02.24 12:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:I would personally leave the resist ships as they currently are, and swap the rep bonus for a raw HP bonus. Thus most Amarr ships would be more likely to add additional plates. And most Gallente ships would be more likely to add resistance mods. Bringing their EHP to about the same level and giving them both a way to truly participate in a larger fleet.
Perhaps there will also need to be further balancing on ships within Amarr and Gallente, where some Amarr ships will get a Rep Bonus for Duration, and some Gallente a Rep bonus for amount(or vice versa) in order to fulfil the role of 1v1 PvP/PVE
Or give a mixed Bonuses reduce the resistance bonus and add the Rep duration bonus for Amarr, with Reduced Bonus HP and rep amount for Gallente, thus not pigeon holing any ship into PvP or PvE
The problem with swapping active bonus for raw EHP bonus is its just the other side of the same coin. While it would add more ehp which is useful in fleets, active solo fights would suffer as would PvE fits. Its not solving anything. I dont see a ship with a resist bonus as unfair, but when it is compared to ships with other bonuses, the resists gives that ship a universal edge. Resists basically apply to everything, while other tanking options don't. Realistically, a direct comparrison would be a rep bonus (both RR and and local,) as well as raw EHP bonus. Hence why I also suggested a mixed bonus.
As for the PvE side, I doubt that a lack of a local rep bonus is going to change much, as there are allot of Amarrian ships that get routinely get used for PvE despite having the resist bonus, which is effectively just an EHP bonus.
The only caveat that I can see is in the solo PvP, which I'm still trying to think of something for, but as a whole I'm just spit-balling and seeing if it can generate an idea from someone else that may point a way for a better solution or the next step in an overall plan to a better solution. |
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