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Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 18:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable.... |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 18:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable....
There are 2 mining barges that can have bs like tank, Procurer and Skiff. Also did you forget that they can use drones, even the offensive ones. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:Frost 3 wrote:the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable.... There are 2 mining barges that can have bs like tank, Procurer and Skiff. Also did you forget that they can use drones, even the offensive ones.
and the excuse for a hulk being the size of a battle cruiser and having a tank of a destroyer? |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:Johnson Oramara wrote:Frost 3 wrote:the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable.... There are 2 mining barges that can have bs like tank, Procurer and Skiff. Also did you forget that they can use drones, even the offensive ones. and the excuse for a hulk being the size of a battle cruiser and having a tank of a destroyer?
We are given choice to be greedy and go for maximum yield with Hulk/Covetor while having lowest cargo hold and ehp, cautious with Procurer/Skiff for BS like tank while having lowest yield, Retriever/Mackinaw for biggest cargo hold while having lower yield and ehp. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:Frost 3 wrote:Johnson Oramara wrote:Frost 3 wrote:the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable.... There are 2 mining barges that can have bs like tank, Procurer and Skiff. Also did you forget that they can use drones, even the offensive ones. and the excuse for a hulk being the size of a battle cruiser and having a tank of a destroyer? We are given choice to be greedy and go for maximum yield with Hulk/Covetor while having lowest cargo hold and ehp, cautious with Procurer/Skiff for BS like tank while having lowest yield, Retriever/Mackinaw for biggest cargo hold while having lower yield and ehp. so your saying that you think a ship of that size should be able to be crushed in 12 seconds by a single destroyer? logi dictates a ship without offensive ability (and drones are not aggressive they are enough to ward off rats at most) would focus on defense... |
BobDole DraggoFasst
Captain Simian and the Space Monkeys The Kingdom of Heaven
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
The point is fleet defense, as the mining barges are SOCIAL ships. A single/fleet of Procuror/Skiffs in a dangerous area can handle being attacked for a bit while the guardian fleet comes to the rescue. A Retriever/Mackinaw in a reasonably safe area is a decent solo miner. The Covetor/Hulk in fleet ops is king, as with orca/Rorqual support it outmines everything else. These ships were never meant to stand alone, the venture was intended to stand alone. The rest of the ships were designed for fleet operations. I fail to see the real point in your arguement, other than "I get ganked while AFK mining and would like it to stop" The easy answer is to not AFK mine, to set up fleet ops with your corp, and make some serious isk. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
31
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:28:00 -
[7] - Quote
Last time i checked barges are closer to cruiser size and I got in excess of 40k ehp on a procurer without t2 shield mods or rigs. The price is basically supply and demand so that doesn't really matter. |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:Johnson Oramara wrote:Frost 3 wrote:Johnson Oramara wrote:Frost 3 wrote:the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable.... There are 2 mining barges that can have bs like tank, Procurer and Skiff. Also did you forget that they can use drones, even the offensive ones. and the excuse for a hulk being the size of a battle cruiser and having a tank of a destroyer? We are given choice to be greedy and go for maximum yield with Hulk/Covetor while having lowest cargo hold and ehp, cautious with Procurer/Skiff for BS like tank while having lowest yield, Retriever/Mackinaw for biggest cargo hold while having lower yield and ehp. so your saying that you think a ship of that size should be able to be crushed in 12 seconds by a single destroyer? logi dictates a ship without offensive ability (and drones are not aggressive they are enough to ward off rats at most) would focus on defense...
While i would love to have my hulk sturdier too i understand where you are coming from but when the mining barges were balanced the idea was to give a role to each of them and not just have the old decent, better and best ship.
I understand that it must feel unfair and stupid to have few million ship able to easily gank 200 million tech 2 ship but unfortunately this is how things are now and if you are afraid of ganks you should go with Procurer/Skiff. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Im not sure if you understand the purpose of this subsection on the forums
its for proposed changes and ideas not well its always been this way so f it... lets keep it. |
Dave Stark
1861
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 19:52:00 -
[10] - Quote
the exhumer rebalance failed miserably, but this thread addresses none of those issues. "100k for notifications of stupidity, i love this bounty system." |
|
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1008
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 20:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Is this seriously a thread, after the massive buff to their tanks they just got?
lol |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
240
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 20:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote: and the excuse for a hulk being the size of a battle cruiser and having a tank of a destroyer?
Lowest sig rad for combat BCs = ~250 Highest sigrad for combat BCs = ~300 Lowest sig rad for attack BCs = ~170 Highest sigrad for attack BCs = ~200 Hulk sig rad = 150
Destroyer base EHP = ~4000 Attack BC ( closest to Hulk in terms of size ) base EHP = ~9000 Hulk's base EHP = ~11000
Attack BC ( closest to Hulk in terms of size ) possible EHP = ~25000 Hulk's possible EHP = ~40000
Hulk = dedicated fleet mining ship BCs = dedicated combat vessels OP = idiot |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 21:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:Frost 3 wrote: and the excuse for a hulk being the size of a battle cruiser and having a tank of a destroyer?
Lowest sig rad for combat BCs = ~250 Highest sigrad for combat BCs = ~300 Lowest sig rad for attack BCs = ~170 Highest sigrad for attack BCs = ~200 Hulk sig rad = 150Destroyer base EHP = ~4000 Attack BC ( closest to Hulk in terms of size ) base EHP = ~9000 Hulk's base EHP = ~11000Attack BC ( closest to Hulk in terms of size ) possible EHP = ~25000 Hulk's possible EHP = ~40000Hulk = dedicated fleet mining ship BCs = dedicated combat vessels OP = idiot I want to see your fit for a hulk if you can get 40k ehp at most I can get 22k ehp |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
780
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 21:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
BobDole DraggoFasst wrote:The point is fleet defense, as the mining barges are SOCIAL ships. A single/fleet of Procuror/Skiffs in a dangerous area can handle being attacked for a bit while the guardian fleet comes to the rescue. A Retriever/Mackinaw in a reasonably safe area is a decent solo miner. The Covetor/Hulk in fleet ops is king, as with orca/Rorqual support it outmines everything else. These ships were never meant to stand alone, the venture was intended to stand alone. The rest of the ships were designed for fleet operations. I fail to see the real point in your arguement, other than "I get ganked while AFK mining and would like it to stop" The easy answer is to not AFK mine, to set up fleet ops with your corp, and make some serious isk.
Please, enlighten us on how do your "fleet defense" would save your hulks from highsec gankers. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
240
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 21:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote: I want to see your fit for a hulk if you can get 40k ehp at most I can get 22k ehp
1. You could try using some tanking modules/rigs for instance ( AIF + DC + CDFE + Extenders ). 2. Remembering that this is a fleet mining ship could also help ( gang links, both siege and armour ). 3. There are also those things called : implants.
Last I checked you could get at least 38k EHP on Hulk. It ain't pretty but it's doable. That is the same thing others need to do with their ships you know : fitting choices. Of course some of you miners always want to get full yield + full tank with no fitting constraints, which was the main reason for mining ship 'rebalance'. That is a problem with you people and not the game.
|
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
780
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 22:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:Frost 3 wrote: I want to see your fit for a hulk if you can get 40k ehp at most I can get 22k ehp
1. You could try using some tanking modules/rigs for instance ( AIF + DC + CDFE + Extenders ). 2. Remembering that this is a fleet mining ship could also help ( gang links, both siege and armour ). 3. There are also those things called : implants. Last I checked you could get at least 38k EHP on Hulk. It ain't pretty but it's doable. That is the same thing others need to do with their ships you know : fitting choices. Of course some of you miners always want to get full yield + full tank with no fitting constraints, which was the main reason for mining ship 'rebalance'. That is a problem with you people and not the game.
Deadspace tank. Your Hulk now takes 2 Catalysts to pop instead of one. That km is going to be hilarious.
Debating whether barges should be able to fit tank is one thing. Suggesting that they currently can fit one worth a damn is only making a fool out of yourself, and no one else. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
33
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 22:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:logi dictates a ship without offensive ability (and drones are not aggressive they are enough to ward off rats at most) would focus on defense... Logic dictates that mining ships are special and they sacrifice defense for larger ore hold/yield. If you want to be tanky - use skiff. |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
241
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 22:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Deadspace tank. Your Hulk now takes 2 Catalysts to pop instead of one. That km is going to be hilarious. Debating whether barges should be able to fit tank is one thing. Suggesting that they currently can fit one worth a damn is only making a fool out of yourself, and no one else.
[Tanky Fleet Hulk] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
+ SM Gnome 705
Yeah, I see a lot of deadspace here. For someone with at least modicum of intelligence I wouldn't add it but since you are a special case, here it goes : This is a fleet mining ship. Now you surely get it. . . . Oh, who am I kidding, you don't get it do you. Here's a hint for you : defensive gang links. I really hope you get it now. If not then you are beyond anyone's help, sorry. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 22:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:sabre906 wrote:Deadspace tank. Your Hulk now takes 2 Catalysts to pop instead of one. That km is going to be hilarious. Debating whether barges should be able to fit tank is one thing. Suggesting that they currently can fit one worth a damn is only making a fool out of yourself, and no one else. [Tanky Fleet Hulk] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core I Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II Modulated Strip Miner II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I + SM Gnome 705 Yeah, I see a lot of deadspace here. For someone with at least modicum of intelligence I wouldn't add it but since you are a special case, here it goes : This is a fleet mining ship.Now you surely get it. . . . Oh, who am I kidding, you don't get it do you. Here's a hint for you : defensive gang links. I really hope you get it now. If not then you are beyond anyone's help, sorry.
1 this fit doesn't work CPU wise even with a T2 Micro Auxiliary Power Core 2 and both Ca-1 and CA-2 implants for fitting. is actually not capable of running power grid wise without the CA-1 and Ca-2 implants....
2 shield harmonizers are a must anyways.
3 You still fail on EHP calculations cause at level 5 most EHP with that fit is 34,210 far short of the 40K (not to mention the invalid fitting options) |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
33
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 23:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:1 this fit doesn't work CPU wise even with a T2 Micro Auxiliary Power Core 2 and both Ca-1 and CA-2 implants for fitting. is actually not capable of running power grid wise without the CA-1 and Ca-2 implants....
2 shield harmonizers are a must anyways.
3 You still fail on EHP calculations cause at level 5 most EHP with that fit is 34,210 far short of the 40K (not to mention the invalid fitting options) Perfectly fits with EE-602 (Or CA-1 + CA-2), 41k ehp with tengu links, 46k ehp with 2nd extender rig and EG-605 implant + CA-1/2. |
|
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
242
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 23:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote: 1 this fit doesn't work CPU wise even with a T2 Micro Auxiliary Power Core 2 and both Ca-1 and CA-2 implants for fitting. is actually not capable of running power grid wise without the CA-1 and Ca-2 implants....
2 shield harmonizers are a must anyways.
3 You still fail on EHP calculations cause at level 5 most EHP with that fit is 34,210 far short of the 40K (not to mention the invalid fitting options)
1. 1% - 3% CPU implant or downgrade single AIF to meta 2 ( can't remember which, probably 2% ) 2. harmonizer + pd 3. ~ 40k EHP with T2 AIFs and mindlink ~ 38k EHP with T2 AIFs without mindlink ~ 39k EHP with downgraded AIF and mindlink
|
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
373
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 23:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
[Hulk, EHP] Damage Control II Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction EM Ward Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Shield Maintenance Bot II x5
30,000 EHP without boost, with boost youre looking at more like 35,000
Also, your Orca (youre using a hulk so you do have an orca right?) has 3 high slots . . . consider using one of them for a shield transfer . . . it gives you a 400 DPS tank and hits at the beginning of the cycle . . .
ugh and I though PvPers failed at fitting their ships. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 23:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Frost 3 wrote:1 this fit doesn't work CPU wise even with a T2 Micro Auxiliary Power Core 2 and both Ca-1 and CA-2 implants for fitting. is actually not capable of running power grid wise without the CA-1 and Ca-2 implants....
2 shield harmonizers are a must anyways.
3 You still fail on EHP calculations cause at level 5 most EHP with that fit is 34,210 far short of the 40K (not to mention the invalid fitting options) Perfectly fits with EE-602 (Or CA-1 + CA-2), 41k ehp with tengu links, 46k ehp with 2nd extender rig and EG-605 implant + CA-1/2. so only another 120 mill added ....maybe more ... or we just be reasonable and increase the powergrid on barges and exhumers |
Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice R O G U E
38
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 00:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
I must agree that there are several illogical features when it comes to eHP vs ship's actual size and structure. Even if it is a game mechanic or whatever attempt on reality, fact is that it is not great to see a ship of such mass (let alone the actual MASS stat) easily be blown to bits. It is obvious that some industrial would have paper armor or vulnerable segments unlike a true battleship, but I must say that the game could be more fun for everybody.
I'll just cast a thread hijack Vayn Baxtor sucessful casts a "Forum: Thread Hijack" spell!
Just a quick note, this is a seperate suggestion to buff the chance of catching miners (!) but also not having the miners be punished or easy killmail food(!). See this as a proposal+counterproposal. So to be clear, something for those who attempt to get kills on miners, but also having mining-vessels that don't go poof that easily(!).
We have two sides, the miners in their barges + hunters trying to kill them. Let's see if this proposal can please both, even if it is just a bit:
So there are people who try to catch unwary miners or just simply trying to have luck by blinding jumping into a system and randomly catching miners specifically in a belt. Reality shows - regardless of Amazing Intel/Local or just out of pure luck- that mining vessels usually have more than sufficient time to get out of the belt and be in their cozy POS shield; by the time hunters have arrived, they'll see x numbers of Barges/Exhumers all bunched up at -¦5 dirscan at the tower. Botting alone profits from getting away easily, even if the current sets of barges have crappy align-times.
Now I've always been mouthy about getting industrial ships more into combat and stuff, so excuse me if I'm nutty here.
So how about this:
LOTS of HP for barges/exhumers + Barges and Exhumers, all in general (I don't care right now about Skiff/Procurer) get a very decent amount of HPs across the board - resists being the same as now. The point of this is to give the barges a very large buffer to actually take a tremendous amount of damage over time. - Hunters/pirates would need considerably and logically a lot more time to nuke these Barges.
(Side note: NPC rats should have a decent dmg penetration vs exhumers. Be it a dmg bonus of some sort. Also, the Mission Rat AI needs to "ignore Barges/Exhumers" in missions. To avoid dummy-tanking)
+ Extra capabilities for combat for barges/exhumers Aside to fitting the usual Strip Miners, maybe there could be some chance of fitting real turrets/missiles (so you have a few weapons vs tacklers for instance, but nothing special) - Hunters/Pirates have to worry a bit more about getting hit aside to the drones
Those were the advantages for the Miners, now here's the miner's downside -> thus advantages for the Hunters/Pirates
- Exhumers/Barges are to have a seriously long align time. It should be almost like with Freighters or any other capital sized vessel in somewhat that one would need crapton of time just to warp. Somewhere a rightclick "Cruise Mode/Mining Deployment Mode" would be interest but lets ignore that for now. Anyhow, the Exhumers/Barges wouldn't be able to get away that easily. After all, their tummies are usually just LOADED with yummy ore.
+ Hunters/Pirates have the real chance to catch these miners! Rushing tackler-Pirates can actually catch these or even catch them in a dictor bubble. However, it won't be an easy kill! They need quite some time to chew through the loads of HP.
This idea is to give the miner's friends a chance to respond. So they have the time to scream SOS on their ally channels and call for help rather than just posting their instant-lossmails.
I know there are some godly tankers out there, but I've also seen ships of such kind go pop in seconds.
Nonetheless, this would or could give both sides advantages and disadvantages (and actually pleasing both mouths). You can catch the miners faster, but they won't die that easily and they would have some breathing time to call for help. If they have no friends or pirates-DPS was faster/higher, win for pirates. If friends show up before the miners blow up, perhaps a chance to suceed.
This would also nerf miner-bots as they are likely to be mining without support. They would need some crapton of time to warp out and unless somebody programmed SOS+system -> happy killmails for you.
Anyways, I'll make a seperate thread sometime; a discussion thread, that is. Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
15
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 02:30:00 -
[25] - Quote
Vayn Baxtor wrote:I must agree that there are several illogical features when it comes to eHP vs ship's actual size and structure. Even if it is a game mechanic or whatever attempt on reality, fact is that it is not great to see a ship of such mass (let alone the actual MASS stat) easily be blown to bits. It is obvious that some industrial would have paper armor or vulnerable segments unlike a true battleship, but I must say that the game could be more fun for everybody.
I'll just cast a thread hijack Vayn Baxtor sucessful casts a "Forum: Thread Hijack" spell!
Just a quick note, this is a seperate suggestion to buff the chance of catching miners (!) but also not having the miners be punished or easy killmail food(!). See this as a proposal+counterproposal. So to be clear, something for those who attempt to get kills on miners, but also having mining-vessels that don't go poof that easily(!).
We have two sides, the miners in their barges + hunters trying to kill them. Let's see if this proposal can please both, even if it is just a bit:
So there are people who try to catch unwary miners or just simply trying to have luck by blinding jumping into a system and randomly catching miners specifically in a belt. Reality shows - regardless of Amazing Intel/Local or just out of pure luck- that mining vessels usually have more than sufficient time to get out of the belt and be in their cozy POS shield; by the time hunters have arrived, they'll see x numbers of Barges/Exhumers all bunched up at -¦5 dirscan at the tower. Botting alone profits from getting away easily, even if the current sets of barges have crappy align-times.
Now I've always been mouthy about getting industrial ships more into combat and stuff, so excuse me if I'm nutty here.
So how about this:
LOTS of HP for barges/exhumers + Barges and Exhumers, all in general (I don't care right now about Skiff/Procurer) get a very decent amount of HPs across the board - resists being the same as now. The point of this is to give the barges a very large buffer to actually take a tremendous amount of damage over time. - Hunters/pirates would need considerably and logically a lot more time to nuke these Barges.
(Side note: NPC rats should have a decent dmg penetration vs exhumers. Be it a dmg bonus of some sort. Also, the Mission Rat AI needs to "ignore Barges/Exhumers" in missions. To avoid dummy-tanking)
+ Extra capabilities for combat for barges/exhumers Aside to fitting the usual Strip Miners, maybe there could be some chance of fitting real turrets/missiles (so you have a few weapons vs tacklers for instance, but nothing special) - Hunters/Pirates have to worry a bit more about getting hit aside to the drones
Those were the advantages for the Miners, now here's the miner's downside -> thus advantages for the Hunters/Pirates
- Exhumers/Barges are to have a seriously long align time. It should be almost like with Freighters or any other capital sized vessel in somewhat that one would need crapton of time just to warp. Somewhere a rightclick "Cruise Mode/Mining Deployment Mode" would be interest but lets ignore that for now. Anyhow, the Exhumers/Barges wouldn't be able to get away that easily. After all, their tummies are usually just LOADED with yummy ore.
+ Hunters/Pirates have the real chance to catch these miners! Rushing tackler-Pirates can actually catch these or even catch them in a dictor bubble. However, it won't be an easy kill! They need quite some time to chew through the loads of HP.
This idea is to give the miner's friends a chance to respond. So they have the time to scream SOS on their ally channels and call for help rather than just posting their instant-lossmails.
I know there are some godly tankers out there, but I've also seen ships of such kind go pop in seconds.
Nonetheless, this would or could give both sides advantages and disadvantages (and actually pleasing both mouths). You can catch the miners faster, but they won't die that easily and they would have some breathing time to call for help. If they have no friends or pirates-DPS was faster/higher, win for pirates. If friends show up before the miners blow up, perhaps a chance to suceed.
This would also nerf miner-bots as they are likely to be mining without support. They would need some crapton of time to warp out and unless somebody programmed SOS+system -> happy killmails for you.
Anyways, I'll make a seperate thread sometime; a discussion thread, that is. finally someone that gets it. Thank you |
BobDole DraggoFasst
Captain Simian and the Space Monkeys The Kingdom of Heaven
4
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Posted - 2013.02.25 04:37:00 -
[26] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:BobDole DraggoFasst wrote:The point is fleet defense, as the mining barges are SOCIAL ships. A single/fleet of Procuror/Skiffs in a dangerous area can handle being attacked for a bit while the guardian fleet comes to the rescue. A Retriever/Mackinaw in a reasonably safe area is a decent solo miner. The Covetor/Hulk in fleet ops is king, as with orca/Rorqual support it outmines everything else. These ships were never meant to stand alone, the venture was intended to stand alone. The rest of the ships were designed for fleet operations. I fail to see the real point in your arguement, other than "I get ganked while AFK mining and would like it to stop" The easy answer is to not AFK mine, to set up fleet ops with your corp, and make some serious isk. Please, enlighten us on how do your "fleet defense" would save your hulks from highsec gankers.
Fleet defense against hisec gankers? Well that one is easy. Many hisec gankers come in already blinky. Blinky is fair game for a highsec kill. Each barge mounts 5 light scout drones. My personal drone control range is 54km, but let;s cut that down to 48km or so. If your fleet op consists of an orca and a hulk, you have 10 hobgoblin IIs to send against said blinky catty. An Orca also has decent shield rep ability. Now let's put a small corp out there, 5 people. That's 25 Hob IIs. Most gankships aren't going to last too long. They would need a fresh pilot to take out a single miner.
Let's put this at absolute worst case scenario. We have a fleet op of 5 people, 1 orca and 4 hulks. In warp 300 gankfit cattys, all fresh toons so none are blinking suspect or wanted. The Orca pilot immedietly hits squad warp to a safe or celestial, and the fleet warps out. Well warps out about 10 seconds later. The orca pilot, being the intelligent Op handler he is, made sure everyone was about 30km from the warpin point of the belt, so our goonfleet warps in and has to travel to the targets, granting more time for warpout. The orca pilot may have also told the fleet to align to a particular spot before beginning mining, so that warpout time is further reduced. Now only 1 person needs pay attention to keep 5 people alive. With fleet boss and squad leader roles being passed around afk breaks can be done in shifts, or watches can be done in shifts.
Ultimately, with fleet support your highsec hulks can afford to scout out a nice, quiet lowsec system and mine there, while your defensive cruisers and cloakys stand guard. The occasional ganker warps in only to be tackled and popped. Even without defensive ships, a large enough mining fleet can defend itself just fine with drones. Few ships can stand up to 25 drones for long, much less 50-100 drones (10-20 man fleet).
Lastly, the larger the fleet the more ore mined in less time. Less time in a belt means less chance to be ganked. |
Frost 3
Desertus Caterva The Interstellar Trade n Terror Alliance
15
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Posted - 2013.02.25 05:01:00 -
[27] - Quote
BobDole DraggoFasst wrote:sabre906 wrote:BobDole DraggoFasst wrote:The point is fleet defense, as the mining barges are SOCIAL ships. A single/fleet of Procuror/Skiffs in a dangerous area can handle being attacked for a bit while the guardian fleet comes to the rescue. A Retriever/Mackinaw in a reasonably safe area is a decent solo miner. The Covetor/Hulk in fleet ops is king, as with orca/Rorqual support it outmines everything else. These ships were never meant to stand alone, the venture was intended to stand alone. The rest of the ships were designed for fleet operations. I fail to see the real point in your arguement, other than "I get ganked while AFK mining and would like it to stop" The easy answer is to not AFK mine, to set up fleet ops with your corp, and make some serious isk. Please, enlighten us on how do your "fleet defense" would save your hulks from highsec gankers. Fleet defense against hisec gankers? Well that one is easy. Many hisec gankers come in already blinky. Blinky is fair game for a highsec kill. Each barge mounts 5 light scout drones. My personal drone control range is 54km, but let;s cut that down to 48km or so. If your fleet op consists of an orca and a hulk, you have 10 hobgoblin IIs to send against said blinky catty. An Orca also has decent shield rep ability. Now let's put a small corp out there, 5 people. That's 25 Hob IIs. Most gankships aren't going to last too long. They would need a fresh pilot to take out a single miner. Let's put this at absolute worst case scenario. We have a fleet op of 5 people, 1 orca and 4 hulks. In warp 300 gankfit cattys, all fresh toons so none are blinking suspect or wanted. The Orca pilot immedietly hits squad warp to a safe or celestial, and the fleet warps out. Well warps out about 10 seconds later. The orca pilot, being the intelligent Op handler he is, made sure everyone was about 30km from the warpin point of the belt, so our goonfleet warps in and has to travel to the targets, granting more time for warpout. The orca pilot may have also told the fleet to align to a particular spot before beginning mining, so that warpout time is further reduced. Now only 1 person needs pay attention to keep 5 people alive. With fleet boss and squad leader roles being passed around afk breaks can be done in shifts, or watches can be done in shifts. Ultimately, with fleet support your highsec hulks can afford to scout out a nice, quiet lowsec system and mine there, while your defensive cruisers and cloakys stand guard. The occasional ganker warps in only to be tackled and popped. Even without defensive ships, a large enough mining fleet can defend itself just fine with drones. Few ships can stand up to 25 drones for long, much less 50-100 drones (10-20 man fleet). Lastly, the larger the fleet the more ore mined in less time. Less time in a belt means less chance to be ganked. this is assuming a decent lock time on a mining barge... again requiring a bonus if thats even a option |
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
243
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Posted - 2013.02.25 08:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
1. You do understand that any changes to mining vessels will mainly impact hisec ( yes, the area with immortal and omnipotent NPC police force ) ?
2. If you have any problems with survivability of your mining fleets in nullsec when using current barges then you are just incompetent or your opponents were simply better. No problem with the game whatsoever. Actually its a fine example of : "Working as intended".
3. What illogical features might those be ( concerning ehp ) ? You do know that Hulk is quite a bit smaller than attack BCs and it still has more raw buffer on Shields ( Armour and structure being similar ). The only attack BC having slightly more structure and armour is also 33% bigger. Hulk even gets much higher shield resistances.
Oh you meant Skiff? Nope. It already has aBC sig and BS tank. Makcinaw? Nope. It's weaker but it has gigantic ore hold and much better mobility ( align time included ) than Hulk.
So I repeat : What illogical features might those be ( concerning ehp ) ?
Vayn Baxtor wrote: This would also nerf miner-bots as they are likely to be mining without support.
I'm sure CCP Sreggs would disagree with you. Actually, anyone having at least faint idea about the game would disagree.
Oh and just for my own perversive amusement : - how many raw HPs should be added in your opinion? Would 10k be ok with you? 20k? I think 30k would be fine. - would 4 additional hislots ( including hardpoints ) be enough? I imagine 2 would be quite weak. Oh you want to give them that neat double damage bonus. Smart, very smart. - medium sized guns? - you do understand that they won't be able to hit tacklers without tracking bonus ( even when using small guns ) or web? - you do understand that adding turret capabilities would mean huge increase in PG/CPU? - you do understand the implications of adding hislots, PG, CPU?
Those are all serious questions ( no they aren't ) and I expect serious answers ( no I don't ).
And just a fun fact : You typical Tengu sports ~35k EHP ( with Hulk size sig rad ) meaning that it is actually easier to destroy than most barges. Just in case anyone tries to bring cost into this 'discussion'. |
Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
420
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Posted - 2013.02.25 08:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Frost 3 wrote:the EHP on a mining barge or exhumer is stupid low. In some cases regardless of what you do you cant tank them against an attack. Why is this? why would someone design a ship that moves at a snails pace, participates in a stationary task so affectingly the most likely target and oh By the way has 0 Offensive ability. ... as a benefit of all of that... lets make them ridiculously easy to kill too...
Anyone notice how stupid that is? I mean seriously I'm not a rocket scientist but if I made a ship that was super slow and no aggressive ability the Defense would take a pretty big step forward as the Major design option... Considering Exhumers cost similar to Battleships why not give them respective ehps?
just an idea for being reasonable....
no the EHP on the "more useful" and "higher yeald" miening ships is "too low" its a case of risk vs reward.. use a procuror/skiff with a BS sized EHP or move to some where less plauged by gankers and stop whineing and crying. |
Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
420
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Posted - 2013.02.25 08:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
And just a fun fact : You typical Tengu sports ~35k EHP ( with Hulk size sig rad ) meaning that it is actually easier to destroy than most barges. Just in case anyone tries to bring cost into this 'discussion'.
it still takes a 200m+ fit BS with 1400s and instalock to take out a tengu befor it turns on its shields but it IS and has been done. as for mineing barges maybe 5 gank-a-lysts are needed for a hulk still (not too sure) but cost is much cheaper to gank miners but yealds next to no reward except stat padding on killboards and +7 douchebag status. |
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