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handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.02.27 00:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
According to the DUST514 forums CCP just made this giant leap in their focus on how to monetize DUST. DUST514 is now Pay2Win. To get the best possible combo of Suits and Modules, you need to pay with AUR items. Some of these have no comparable ISK variants (Complex dmg mods requiring less CPU/PG freeing up more space for other and better equipment (higher meta equipment require more CPU/PG).
The Big question now is when CCP are going to introduce AUR tanks that'll obliterate the ISK variants to give total dominance to there Financial Backers.
I for one welcome our new Rich overlords who will decide which side wins in either FW or SOV wars. Baddest poster ever |
Zanzbar
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
118
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Posted - 2013.02.27 01:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yea atm it seems that way due to aur mods often having the same stats with lower fitting requirements, however once the market opens up this will probably change as you can buy those mods with isk from other players. Then they should just fill a role similar to deadspace mods in eve, quite a bit more expensive for a small stat increase that has the potential to make a significant difference in the fit. The lack of bind on account gear in the eve universe is what keeps things like this from being pay 2 win as it can be freely traded. For me pay to win would be if they made officer gear aurm based as well as implementing bind on account, as guns like "thale's" sniper have about 50% higher damage then their tier 5 counterparts |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
414
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Posted - 2013.02.27 06:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
The whole Pay-to-Win argument starts to lose what little shred of credibility it had as soon as you add the "player-run secondary market" into the equation. Adapt or Die |
Cyriel Longinus
XERCORE E X T E R M I N A T U S
0
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Posted - 2013.02.28 13:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
The Aurum items are not giving anyone an added edge.
What I do notice is that mowing down any Aurum item wearing dust bunny is far more enjoyable than killing any player who bought gear with ISK. In fact my Squad and I demolished a Aurum item wearing squad several times and again until they gave up on storming our objective. I guess it got too real for them. They paid real cash money. We killed them while wearing militia and basic gear backed by the right skills trained and team play. We died a couple of times in the firefight, held our ground and paid nothing for the good time.
The reality is that the most lethal weapon in Dust 514 is the Squad.
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Cawfield
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
2
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Posted - 2013.02.28 16:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
I really don't know where you're getting the idea that it's pay to win.
AUR items are pretty much the equivalent of their higher tech counterparts, you just can use them with less skills.
For example, the highest end assault rifle may require Assault Rifle V, costs 15,000 ISK, and produces say...35 dps (random off the top of my head number).
An AUR rifle may have the exact same stats as the high end, but you can use it at Assault Rifle III instead of V.
That's the difference between AUR and ISK items (and we haven't even opened the player market, yet). There are no AUR items more powerful than ISK items in the game. Period. http://diaryofadredditor.wordpress.com |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.02.28 19:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Cawfield wrote:I really don't know where you're getting the idea that it's pay to win.
AUR items are pretty much the equivalent of their higher tech counterparts, you just can use them with less skills.
For example, the highest end assault rifle may require Assault Rifle V, costs 15,000 ISK, and produces say...35 dps (random off the top of my head number).
An AUR rifle may have the exact same stats as the high end, but you can use it at Assault Rifle III instead of V.
That's the difference between AUR and ISK items (and we haven't even opened the player market, yet). There are no AUR items more powerful than ISK items in the game. Period.
Look at a complex damage mods or shield extender. Now look at the AUR variant, now look at the ISK variant again, see how they require less CPU/PG? On tight fits this could make the difference between being able to fit a complex module, or some sub-par one when you don't pay with AUR.
So it is possible to buy modules with AUR that are better than there ISK counterparts. Because there is no martket in DUST, it isn't known if you can even trade AUR items. They don't show up on the EVE market as being bought, so it is possible AUR items aren't trade-able in DUST. Baddest poster ever |
Hienz Doofenshmirtz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
I spend most of my time murdering people with a exile AR bpo I got from an in game event. alot of people do this as well. yeah it takes me four or five more shots to kill you, but my death doesn't cost me anything, your costs you plenty, there is no pay to win in dust514, you want to win, get a good team, and even in militia gear you can mop the floor with anyone. www.dust514stats.com do you know? |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
414
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:Cawfield wrote:I really don't know where you're getting the idea that it's pay to win.
AUR items are pretty much the equivalent of their higher tech counterparts, you just can use them with less skills.
For example, the highest end assault rifle may require Assault Rifle V, costs 15,000 ISK, and produces say...35 dps (random off the top of my head number).
An AUR rifle may have the exact same stats as the high end, but you can use it at Assault Rifle III instead of V.
That's the difference between AUR and ISK items (and we haven't even opened the player market, yet). There are no AUR items more powerful than ISK items in the game. Period. Look at a complex damage mods or shield extender. Now look at the AUR variant, now look at the ISK variant again, see how they require less CPU/PG? On tight fits this could make the difference between being able to fit a complex module, or some sub-par one when you don't pay with AUR. So it is possible to buy modules with AUR that are better than there ISK counterparts. Because there is no martket in DUST, it isn't known if you can even trade AUR items. They don't show up on the EVE market as being bought, so it is possible AUR items aren't trade-able in DUST.
That still doesn't explain how my militia fit can kill your aurum fit when I use my veteran experience to maximize its effectiveness. Adapt or Die |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
414
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Posted - 2013.03.01 06:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Give a sword to a noob and it will break. Give a butter knife to an expert and he will be able to skin you alive with it. Adapt or Die |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.03.01 10:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm sorry to say I don't use anything higher than Militia/Shadowweave and an Exile rifle or Militia Shotgun when there are many heavies, Henry. Yet I'm still being put in matches with full squad Internal Error/Seraphim Initiative dudes who rock full adv/proto squads most of the time now.
Guess going 30/0 on newberries wasn't gonna last forever :(
All the babble about butter knifes doesn't negate the point I made earlier though. Baddest poster ever |
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Archibald Liberty Killmore
Red Star.
0
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Posted - 2013.03.01 14:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Noobs will get and are getting owned regardless of gear. Going 30-0 is nothing in Dust. there are people that consistantly go 50+/1or2 on ground. |
Big Jim Slade
No Sacrifice No Victory
10
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Also remember, they are paying for higher teir weapons that don't require the extra skills the isk variants have. So anyone using these weapons with fewer skills than the equivalent isk gun is still at a disadvantage to the perks of skills for the weapon type. Like buying a Navy ship with skill level 2 for that race. You CAN fly it, but is it really worth it?
And people can find officer weapons which are better than AUR. and when market opens up, people buy Aur weapons, sell for isk, buy officer. Just like Eve officer items, buy plex, sell for isk, buy officer. pay to win?! OMG. Its not new, and its not a problem. Once you die, its gone. The only way it could have been a problem is if you never lost powerful payed items and you couldn't sell them. And the only bpos right now are colorful militia equivalent items which can be eventually sold. |
Archibald Liberty Killmore
Red Star.
0
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Posted - 2013.03.01 15:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Big Jim Slade wrote:Also remember, they are paying for higher teir weapons that don't require the extra skills the isk variants have. So anyone using these weapons with fewer skills than the equivalent isk gun is still at a disadvantage to the perks of skills for the weapon type. Like buying a Navy ship with skill level 2 for that race. You CAN fly it, but is it really worth it?
And people can find officer weapons which are better than AUR. and when market opens up, people buy Aur weapons, sell for isk, buy officer. Just like Eve officer items, buy plex, sell for isk, buy officer. pay to win?! OMG. Its not new, and its not a problem. Once you die, its gone. The only way it could have been a problem is if you never lost powerful payed items and you couldn't sell them. And the only bpos right now are colorful militia equivalent items which can be eventually sold. If high meta bpos you never have to build are ever sold, you can then rightfully go into some kind of outrage.
A counter to this is all bpos to eventually needing an equivalent amount of items like eve. Either by reprocessing older meta into base materials, or getting items from Eve. And the higher the meta, the less efficiency the bpo so no 1:1 reprocess of other metas into better meta.
This actually sums it all up. Although AUR mods/dropsuits/weapons are available early unless you have a good squad and appropriate map awareness you will loose the AUR gear in a heart beat. for example you could be hacking a terminal with REs and you can go boom. There is all your money and gear down the drain.
Officer weapons are hot commodities. Once trading starts you will be seeing all of those exchange hands. Officer weapons play key roles ic Corp matches. You will see a lot of it being used there. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1187
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Posted - 2013.03.01 16:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Trading doesn't exist. /yet/.
Beta, remember? It will exist later. And I'll get to offload all the officer, proto and advanced gear I'm not skilling for.
are there edge cases? yes. But most edge cases have trouble when I shoot them with a forge gun. A regular, basic, forge gun. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator, invention chance calculator, isk/m3 Ore chart-á and other 'useful' utilities.As well as mysql and CSV/XLS conversions of the Static Data Extract. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
4359
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
sigh...
for the idiots that don't understand the lower requirements of fitting is that the chances are the suit they're slapping it onto is also not designed to fit the next level up. Hence the term early access. Upgrade skills will eventually compensate for that and no longer need for those, and ultimately some fits may seem broken because they can fit one meta level higher in one slot but its not game breakingly bad I mean whats 0.23 more damage going to save you in a magazine? 1 bullet of a fully automatic machine gun that fires 500rpm?
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Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
415
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Posted - 2013.03.01 17:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:I'm sorry to say I don't use anything higher than Militia/Shadowweave and an Exile rifle or Militia Shotgun when there are many heavies, Henry. Yet I'm still being put in matches with full squad Internal Error/Seraphim Initiative dudes who rock full adv/proto squads most of the time now.
Guess going 30/0 on newberries wasn't gonna last forever :(
All the babble about butter knifes doesn't negate the point I made earlier though.
Ok, fine. No more butter knife analogies.
Now officer weapons, you know the kind that you only find in salvage but might end up in the secondary player run market in the future, those can totally destroy your aurum fit in just a few shots regardless of how p2w your fit is. But of course officer weapons are not as tear inducing as remote explosives on that one objective you're hacking. Adapt or Die |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:handige harrie wrote:I'm sorry to say I don't use anything higher than Militia/Shadowweave and an Exile rifle or Militia Shotgun when there are many heavies, Henry. Yet I'm still being put in matches with full squad Internal Error/Seraphim Initiative dudes who rock full adv/proto squads most of the time now.
Guess going 30/0 on newberries wasn't gonna last forever :(
All the babble about butter knifes doesn't negate the point I made earlier though. Ok, fine. No more butter knife analogies. Now officer weapons, you know the kind that you only find in salvage but might end up in the secondary player run market in the future, those can totally destroy your aurum fit in just a few shots regardless of how p2w your fit is. But of course officer weapons are not as tear inducing as remote explosives on that one objective you're hacking.
Yet these officer weapons are balanced against other weapons, they drop for everyone. I've yet to see AUR items drop as loot and I have most guns now as officer variants, but I still haven't gotten an officer dropsuit module. Regarding the officer weapons, CCP has stated loot is saleable and tradeable in a future update, yet regarding to AUR items, they've been very silent.
You can make all kinds of posts on how to kill them. I could also buy them myself, Run them over, spawn stuff on there heads, jump on them.
Like the saying goes; If You're Not Paying, You're The Product being sold. It doesn't fit everywhere, but it looks like it fits the bill pretty darn well regarding Dust. Baddest poster ever |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
415
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Posted - 2013.03.01 19:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Me thinks you run out of rebuttals.
The current mechanics may suggest pay to win, but future mechanics will invalidate all of that. Again, secondary market. I have yet to see anyone make a rebuttal on that. Adapt or Die |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:29:00 -
[19] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:Me thinks you run out of rebuttals.
The current mechanics may suggest pay to win, but future mechanics will invalidate all of that. Again, secondary market. I have yet to see anyone make a rebuttal on that.
Edit:
In regards to aurum items on the secondary market, if CCP goes down the same route they did with plex, which made plex a huge success, then chances are the aurum items may take off in terms of sales depending on how much you are willing to pay in ISK for that item.
? I' don't have to make many retributals; I've stated in the OP and the posts after it dust is P2W as it stand now, and unless they add more modules or make aur items tradable, the latter would pretty much make it P2NotGrind. Baddest poster ever |
Archibald Liberty Killmore
Red Star.
0
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Posted - 2013.03.01 20:43:00 -
[20] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:? I' don't have to make many retributals; I've stated in the OP and the posts after it dust is P2W as it stand now, and unless they add more modules or make aur items tradable, the latter would pretty much make it P2NotGrind.
Dust is anything but P2W. Most of the corps that are on the top actually come from FPS backgrounds like MAG and Battlefield. These guys can pretty much chew out people in AUR/Proto gear in their militia outfits.
Right now all the grinding you are seeing is due to CCP catering to the QQers. CCP trying to make this game Average Joe friendly has caused the game to turn out the way it has turned out so far. These are the same people that cry OP and want more nerfs rather than adapting to the game.
Dust is far from P2W. If someone lacks the skill to point a gun at someones face and kill kill while avoiding the other guy shooting at them they will always QQ. |
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Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
415
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Posted - 2013.03.01 21:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:Henry Haphorn wrote:Me thinks you run out of rebuttals.
The current mechanics may suggest pay to win, but future mechanics will invalidate all of that. Again, secondary market. I have yet to see anyone make a rebuttal on that.
Edit:
In regards to aurum items on the secondary market, if CCP goes down the same route they did with plex, which made plex a huge success, then chances are the aurum items may take off in terms of sales depending on how much you are willing to pay in ISK for that item. ? I' don't have to make many retributals; I've stated in the OP and the posts after it dust is P2W as it stand now, and unless they add more modules or make aur items tradable, the latter would pretty much make it P2NotGrind.
Then the only thing left to do is wait for the market to open up. CCP already knows that everyone is saving up their aurum items, uvt included, so that they get sold for ISK later on. Adapt or Die |
Velarra
197
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Posted - 2013.03.02 00:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Archibald Liberty Killmore wrote:Dust is anything but P2W. Most of the corps that are on the top actually come from FPS backgrounds like MAG and Battlefield. These guys can pretty much chew out people in AUR/Proto gear in their militia outfits.
Is there anything keeping these skilled player groups from outfitting in primarily "shiny" Aur squads? |
Henry Haphorn
Kid's Logistics Inc
415
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Posted - 2013.03.02 06:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
Velarra wrote:Archibald Liberty Killmore wrote:Dust is anything but P2W. Most of the corps that are on the top actually come from FPS backgrounds like MAG and Battlefield. These guys can pretty much chew out people in AUR/Proto gear in their militia outfits. Is there anything keeping these skilled player groups from outfitting in primarily "shiny" Aur squads?
As soon as they hit prototype level in terms of skill points, those aurum items will start to become pointless even with the slight fitting advantage. Adapt or Die |
handige harrie
Hedion University Amarr Empire
43
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Posted - 2013.03.04 06:11:00 -
[24] - Quote
not to mention AUR gear completely negates any and all industry CCP wants to implement in the Dust/EVE link, the same way the Ship skins for only AUR did. Baddest poster ever |
El Cymech
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2013.03.04 14:33:00 -
[25] - Quote
It better be play to win, or it will be a money maker fail. Anyone who is in sales or retail these days can tell you everyone wants everything for free. People think because they are broke everything is free. People are so poor today they will freeload anything to death and there will be massive amounts of people who will never pay a cent for DUST 514. I think Microsoft was right to turn them down because they are smarter business people and knew it would be lackluster profit wise. You can say what you want about Microsoft but you don't reach the heights of the business world and stay there by making bad business calls. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7958
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Posted - 2013.03.04 16:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
El Cymech wrote:It better be play to win, or it will be a money maker fail. Anyone who is in sales or retail these days can tell you everyone wants everything for free. People think because they are broke everything is free. People are so poor today they will freeload anything to death and there will be massive amounts of people who will never pay a cent for DUST 514. I think Microsoft was right to turn them down because they are smarter business people and knew it would be lackluster profit wise. You can say what you want about Microsoft but you don't reach the heights of the business world and stay there by making bad business calls.
8/10 not bad at all Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Big Jim Slade
No Sacrifice No Victory
13
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Posted - 2013.03.04 16:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:not to mention AUR gear completely negates any and all industry CCP wants to implement in the Dust/EVE link, the same way the Ship skins for only AUR did.
Aur ship skins wouldn't have negated industry if only they planned ahead and made the nex store capable of multiple currency transactions like LP stores from the start. That's why the gold scorpion never came out, because they couldn't though nex trade a ship+aur. One could only hope they left the dust market a bit more flexible for future additions and changes without a major rework that the nex store would need code wise. |
Archibald Liberty Killmore
Red Star.
0
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Posted - 2013.03.04 17:04:00 -
[28] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:Velarra wrote:Archibald Liberty Killmore wrote:Dust is anything but P2W. Most of the corps that are on the top actually come from FPS backgrounds like MAG and Battlefield. These guys can pretty much chew out people in AUR/Proto gear in their militia outfits. Is there anything keeping these skilled player groups from outfitting in primarily "shiny" Aur squads? As soon as they hit prototype level in terms of skill points, those aurum items will start to become pointless even with the slight fitting advantage.
This is pretty much it. I have already hit my proto gear and proto mods. So I just run the ISK variants of it. Besides that the AUR dropsuits are only equivalent to the Vk0s. Most players I know prefer the Vk1s over the Vk0s. The Vk1s is strictly ISk based. |
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
152
|
Posted - 2013.03.04 17:50:00 -
[29] - Quote
El Cymech wrote:It better be play to win, or it will be a money maker fail. Anyone who is in sales or retail these days can tell you everyone wants everything for free. People think because they are broke everything is free. People are so poor today they will freeload anything to death and there will be massive amounts of people who will never pay a cent for DUST 514. I think Microsoft was right to turn them down because they are smarter business people and knew it would be lackluster profit wise. You can say what you want about Microsoft but you don't reach the heights of the business world and stay there by making bad business calls.
And yet some of the most successful microtransaction models have primarily been cosmetic. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
4362
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Posted - 2013.03.10 15:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
I would also remind everyone that ccp has never made 'bound items' so everything should be sell-able.
Person to person trading is coming at least in version 0.8.
Also everyone on the forums is bragging how their cheap militia gear is putting people with neo suits down and how horrible these players are performing.
In other words 'pay to lose.'
I also got corrected that majority of the equipment that's an level early no longer have easier fitting requirements outside of skill point level.
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