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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
63
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Posted - 2013.03.08 10:27:00 -
[121] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: It should be noted that it's relatively easy for any individual pilot with a reasonable level of competence to run with a high combat efficiency, as a ship can appear on the killmails of a theoretically unlimited number of ships but can only ever be destroyed once.
Thereby it should also be noted that Corporate kill figures represent a truer representation of kill efficiency if the Corporation in question frequently fly together.
A Corporation can only claim a Killmail once for it's own records.
The Pyre Falcon Defense Cadre run with a very respectable combat history.
But you could have figured that out if you had spent 0.2 seconds doing research instead of running your mouth.
BloodBird wrote: Can we progress beyond this bickering and get back to the topic at hand?
My previous comment aside, I agree. This isn't the venue. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
470
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Posted - 2013.03.08 10:48:00 -
[122] - Quote
BloodBird wrote:Seriously people, if you are going to hold a ****-measuring competition using space-born warships and their effective K/D ratio as a metric, you must have started off with very cruel handicaps indeed.
Can we progress beyond this bickering and get back to the topic at hand?
My apologies, I shouldn't have risen to Andreus' bait. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
202
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Posted - 2013.03.08 11:18:00 -
[123] - Quote
Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2210
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Posted - 2013.03.08 11:22:00 -
[124] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won. Mane 614
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
64
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Posted - 2013.03.08 11:26:00 -
[125] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.
Statistics obfuscate the truth.
But if you wish to stand by them; Mixed Metaphor have a markedly lower efficiency than XV01A whilst seeming to possess a higher incidence of involvement with fleets outside of those exclusive to their own corporation.
You should take valuable advise when it's given to you and move on. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2210
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Posted - 2013.03.08 11:56:00 -
[126] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:But if you wish to stand by them; Mixed Metaphor have a markedly lower efficiency than XV01A whilst seeming to possess a higher incidence of involvement with fleets outside of those exclusive to their own corporation.
You should take valuable advise when it's given to you and move on. Who are you again, exactly? Mane 614
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Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
248
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Posted - 2013.03.08 12:24:00 -
[127] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote: Needless to say, that level of competence is not consistent among either of our militias. We are both on the winning side of the win / loss efficiency scale, which means there are others out there on the losing side of that scale.
Everyone preys on the runts of the litter first, after all. Furthermore I think the chairwoman wasn't hiding behind the entirety of the STPRO when making her claims and assertions. Unlike Ixiris we do not hide behind others.
Regarding the original topic I can echo the chairwoman's sentiments. Ending this war lies almost entirely in the hands of the federation. Until then we have a job to do. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
65
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Posted - 2013.03.08 12:29:00 -
[128] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote: Who are you again, exactly?
Just a nobody. Fresh face. None of your concern. Which is apparently more than qualified enough to show a higher aptitude for rational discourse than some, Mr. Ixiris.
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2211
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Posted - 2013.03.08 12:38:00 -
[129] - Quote
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote:Just a nobody. Fresh face. None of your concern. Which is apparently more than qualified enough to show a higher aptitude for rational discourse than some, Mr. Ixiris. Not with that attitude, mate. Mane 614
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Shiori Shaishi
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.08 12:46:00 -
[130] - Quote
Yes. Pilot Andreus is more famous than you, and your inability to understand how this lends his arguments more validity than yours is nothing short of insolence. Clearly. |
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Aelisha
Achura-Waschi Exchange
85
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Posted - 2013.03.08 12:50:00 -
[131] - Quote
The fact that all militia-supporting naval assets have been slashed in quantity (but arguably increased in quantity) at CEWPA verified 'vital arenas of combat' impresses on me the possibility that in addition to the current foisting of the majority of cost onto capsuleer finances, the Big Four are entering into a sustained war economy, one which minimizes their morale, financial and media profile in terms of loss of human life and materiel.
Taking this into account, before the consideration of 'possible exit strategies' of the situation, seems to show that this is increasingly a war for capsuleers, waged by capsuleers and perpetuated by our command of literally infinite wealth (as there are always other wealth generation methods to fall back on, and the war itself is not a faucet). Considering that it increases the personal wealth and purchasing power of even relatively young, unskilled pilots, the war will continue to be attractive and economically viable.
With the entry of a new breed of immortal killing machine to the field of planetary warfare, and their current authorized segregation into the war zone, with the exception of high profile contracts on the part of governmental bodies, it seems that the Empyrean Pressure Valve that these conflicts double as, on top of their obvious territorial advantages for the States/nations sponsoring such warfare will find new purpose and thus self-perpetuate. After all, it seems that lucrative land ownership in nullsec and the incentive-laden 'free-form contract of service' that is a stint of milita service are all ways to attempt to get immortals keen to carve their name into the nearest celestial object (whatever the reason why) out of core territories.
Simply put, a stabilisation mechanism like the CEWPA conflict is just too convenient a tool for the CONCORD signatories, including my beloved State, to ignore. While experimental, unpredictable and immortal entities exist as an extreme minority in the cluster-wide population, this method of courting support without having to take direct responsibility for the less savory consequences of individuals like us who have come to view death as an inconvenience at worst, and a method of travel at the best of times, will remain highly attractive.
Regardless of the logical conclusions and the compelling argument the Luminaire demilitarization proposal posits (with interesting ramifications concerning the 'Intaki homeworld problem' perpetuated by this war), the very fact that we as individuals are willing to serve our nations, but also use that service as one of the most potent wealth distribution methods in our society, will encourage us to make the system seem like it is working as intended. Not to win one way or another, but to preserve sovereign, empire forces from the worst ravages of interstellar conflict and segregate unbound capsuleers and other immortal military assets from the realities of political responsibility and national economies.
Call me a skeptic, but it is my opinion that we capsuleers, regardless of capability, loyalty and avenue of input to this system, are the regenerative meat shield both preventing peace and all out war in parallel. Figuring this out (or making the bald assertion thereof in this case) isn't big, clever or an 'out' from the system - at least not until CONCORD changes dramatically or there are mass resignations from their charter. It is mostly a slightly depressing realization of the state of affairs and a much more effective way of realizing that the only victory to be had is to play the long game - fight, mine, trade and collaborate economically - because when the vacuum-seal against our influence in direct national military and political affairs finally pops, the degree to which you gamed the systems that came before will dictate the head start you get when you figure out how to play the next system thrown at you.
Practical makes Perfect. CEO of the Achura-Waschi Exchange: An International trade corporation that adheres to State values
Intaki born State Citizen and supporter of the Practicals Bloc. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
78
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Posted - 2013.03.08 19:10:00 -
[132] - Quote
Very good points, Aelisha. I'm glad to see that the deeper implications behind the argument I've been repeating over and over in this thread aren't lost on the entire Capsuleer population. It is expected that our kind are more interested in exhibiting their bravado than focusing on a delicate subject like territorial negotiations, but this has gotten almost ridiculous.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:My apologies, I shouldn't have risen to Andreus' bait.
Honestly, Pieter, you seem just as interested in chumming the waters with red meat as Andreus if not more. I could care less about what heroic feats you and the other pilots in your Alliance think yourselves capable of in a war of total destruction between our peoples. Although I do care about the progress of the current war between the State Protectorate and the Federal Defense Union, that subject is very clearly outside the core issue of this thread. I said as much to Pilot Ixiris when I labeled his first post on the subject of Black Rise a "provocation."
I didn't start this topic as yet another opportunity for the same posturing. I started this topic because the instability in the Caldari State and the escalation of Nationalist rhetoric in the Federation threaten to escalate the situation in Luminaire to the point of crisis. As of now, this crisis can be averted, but it will take action on our part. Settling the status of Caldari Prime is my only aim here.
To those Caldari who believe this proxy war suits their interests, I say brilliant. Honestly, it suits my finances just as well as yours. Let it continue, my proposal has no ambition to stop it. Just remember this, the first world to burn if we fail to prevent this crisis will be Caldari Prime. If that day comes, you will wail and gnash your teeth and blame the Federation as you always do. Remember also that this was an opportunity. |
James Syagrius
The Philalethes Society
287
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Posted - 2013.03.08 22:05:00 -
[133] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. Then I am a great fool indeed, wars are won in the wallet. "We are what we do." |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
506
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Posted - 2013.03.09 03:00:00 -
[134] - Quote
Militia warfare is meaningless from my standpoint. The Militias fight over petty low security systems that are overrun with pirates and various other vagabonds anyway. The planets and resources may prove valuable, but they cannot be harvested without the major threat of criminals and other militias in the area.
Essentially, these militias are fighting over scraps of food, discarding pieces that serve no practical use to each nation in the grand scheme of things. Regardless of what the Militia's do, the Empires will be able to go about their business with virtually no changes to their routine. The only thing that might concern them is which group will be waiting at the low security gates today.
James Syagrius wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. Then I am a great fool indeed, wars are won in the wallet.
Which is why the Amarr Empire, who are so wealthy they can afford to decorate their ships with gold, managed to lose to ragtag groups of penniless slaves.
All war come down to at the end of the day are the people who come up with the strategies, and the people that execute the strategies. I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Vihtor Heishi
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.03.09 03:32:00 -
[135] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won.
Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.
The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.
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Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
83
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Posted - 2013.03.09 03:48:00 -
[136] - Quote
Vihtor Heishi wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won. Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information. The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.
Your professors at the Academy must be so proud. |
Vihtor Heishi
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.03.09 04:09:00 -
[137] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:Vihtor Heishi wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won. Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information. The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor. Your professors at the Academy must be so proud.
Top of my class. Does it show?
Do you actually have anything to contribute or are you just being a child? |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
616
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Posted - 2013.03.09 05:11:00 -
[138] - Quote
Vihtor Heishi wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Only a fool would believe wars are won with statistics. No, but statistics can show whether a war is being won. Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information. The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor. Sir,
Statistics are only misleading if one does not know how to read statistics.
The eye's mistake is no fault of the pen. |
Vihtor Heishi
State War Academy Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2013.03.09 05:28:00 -
[139] - Quote
Scherezad wrote: Sir,
Statistics are only misleading if one does not know how to read statistics.
The eye's mistake is no fault of the pen.
Very true, but the fault can sometimes lie with the one using the pen.
Seifuku suru ishi wa sh+ìri e no saisho no kagi to narimasu. Watashi wa anata no owarinohajimarida. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
478
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Posted - 2013.03.09 06:04:00 -
[140] - Quote
Miss Vero, I wasn't the one who started bragging about who was winning the war in Black Rise. Still... I did bite when that was waved under my nose - and thus I apologised.
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
624
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Posted - 2013.03.09 14:25:00 -
[141] - Quote
Vihtor Heishi wrote:Scherezad wrote: Sir,
Statistics are only misleading if one does not know how to read statistics.
The eye's mistake is no fault of the pen.
Very true, but the fault can sometimes lie with the one using the pen.
Finding an unbiased human is an impossible task. Do not blame the river for undercutting the foundation of your home, blame the one who built it there.
If one finds statistics misleading, learn to read them. |
James Syagrius
The Philalethes Society
293
|
Posted - 2013.03.10 05:52:00 -
[142] - Quote
I think all that can be said, has been said. We know who is for what, and what each stands for and against. If nothing else I think we have seen that there are those on both sides that seek an permanent and honorable peace.
At times the discussion has been contentious and I take my share of blame for that. We capsuleers hold no little power. But until our... until the respective governments are willing to seek accommodation, all our labors will go wanting. We must therefore act from within our respective factions, to change the dynamic of confrontation.
For some of us that will be more difficult than for others. Facing the realities of ones own opinions is often difficult. We must learn to speak to and not at each other, without resentment or recrimination.
In the coming days and weeks I will be approaching some of you, in an effort to dispel suspicion and promote a mutual trust that I feel is necessary and lacking. So that we together my demonstrate that honest brokers exist and that our mutual suspicions may be overcame. "We are what we do." |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
84
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Posted - 2013.03.10 07:05:00 -
[143] - Quote
Vihtor Heishi wrote:
Statistics are easily skewed in one way or another depending on who is doing the reporting or what sources they used to get their information.
The only thing that decides whether a war is won or lost is history. Usually written by the victor.
Rinai Vero wrote:Your professors at the Academy must be so proud.
Vihtor Heishi wrote:Top of my class. Does it show?
Do you actually have anything to contribute or are you just being a child?
Well, I did start this entire bloody thread. So there's that. I'll admit my patience is wearing pretty thin at this point. Reading all this determined warmongering in a topic dedicated to a very specific peace proposal has that effect. I don't think anyone could accuse me of believing myself famous, and yet believe I might be just as flummoxed as Andreus Ixiris when I see comments like yours. Its as if four (or five?) different cliches managed to manifest in ridiculous symmetry. I love that you've decided to take time from your studies to contribute, but you could at least do so in a manner that doesn't echo popular truisms that predate recorded history.
James Syagrius wrote:I think all that can be said, has been said. We know who is for what, and what each stands for and against. If nothing else I think we have seen that there are those on both sides that seek a permanent and honorable peace.
At times the discussion has been contentious and I take my share of blame for that. We capsuleers hold no little power. But until our... until the, respective governments are willing to seek accommodation, all our labors will go wanting. We must therefore act from within our respective factions, to change the dynamic of confrontation.
For some of us that will be more difficult than for others. Facing the realities of ones own opinions is often difficult. We must learn to speak to and not at each other, without resentment or recrimination.
In the coming days and weeks I will approach some of you, in an effort to dispel suspicion and promote a mutual trust that I feel is necessary and lacking. So that we together my demonstrate that honest brokers exist and that our mutual suspicions may be overcame.
I admire that you've come to this conclusion, and I wish you progress in your endeavors.
Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
479
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Posted - 2013.03.10 08:14:00 -
[144] - Quote
I do not want to bequeath this war to my children and their children's children. If there is truly a way towards an honourable peace, then I'll support it - whichever side of the line it comes from. |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
207
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Posted - 2013.03.10 08:52:00 -
[145] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote: Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment?
When it can be answered what peace with the Federation can offer the Caldari State, then perhaps such a proposal might be taken under consideration. Some might believe that the political locus of the current conflict centers upon Caldari Prime. I would disagree, Caldari Prime is merely a symbol. A symbol of the legacy of the Federation's inability to compromise, to seek accord with the Caldari State and to embark upon continued economic and military rivalry against the Caldari people.
War would have been impossible if the Federation had continued upon the path set by Foiritain in seeking accord with the State through respect and understanding in order to alleviate over two centuries of mistrust and suspicion propagated by the policies of previous Federal Administrations. However, it is clear that even men such as Foiritain are easily dispensed with by men such as Roden and Blaque who are intent on repeating the mistakes of the past and to carry on with the antiquated notion that the Caldari State is nothing more than rebel colonists requiring integration back into the Federation and not an independent, sovereign, interstellar nation worthy of respect as an equal to the Federation.
The tragedy here is that there was indeed a time when both Gallente and Caldari once called each other brothers and sisters - despite how much it might be denied. It was a relationship forged and premised upon mutual respect and understanding between ourselves and it was through it that we escaped Luminaire together and sought our destinies amongst the stars. It should also be remembered that the breakdown in that relationship occurred only when it became increasingly apparent that attempts were being made to force the Caldari people and its colonies into an unequal partnership that did not respect their autonomy or political and economic independence.
This is at the very core of disagreement between the State and Federation. Caldari citizens believe we are a free and independent people who have already purchased our liberty with our own blood, and if the Federation truly wished for peace with the State then it should have adjusted its foreign policy accordingly and not wait until the State called the continued bluffs and sabre-rattling by men such as Blaque or the Sociocrats in order to disabuse the Federation of any notions that we will gladly accept threats to the sovereign interests of the Caldari State.
If peace is truly sought by the citizens of the Federation, then make it to the interests of the State to do so, because feigning affectations and offering nothing in return will never suffice. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
439
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Posted - 2013.03.10 11:29:00 -
[146] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:[quote=Rinai Vero] War would have been impossible if the Federation had continued upon the path set by Foiritain in seeking accord with the State through respect and understanding in order to alleviate over two centuries of mistrust and suspicion propagated by the policies of previous Federal Administrations. However, it is clear that even men such as Foiritain are easily dispensed with by men such as Roden and Blaque who are intent on repeating the mistakes of the past and to carry on with the antiquated notion that the Caldari State is nothing more than rebel colonists requiring integration back into the Federation and not an independent, sovereign, interstellar nation worthy of respect as an equal to the Federation.
Foiritain was still in power when the State attacked Luminaire in YC 111. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
86
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Posted - 2013.03.11 01:46:00 -
[147] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:Rinai Vero wrote: Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment?
... If peace is truly sought by the citizens of the Federation, then make it to the interests of the State to do so, because feigning affectations and offering nothing in return will never suffice.
If you don't understand why a peaceful settlement of the status of your own Homeworld is in the interest of the State by now, then I doubt I can say anything further that would convince you. I hope that as events unfold your outlook will change.
I have no illusion that we can even see the horizon of a full and equitable peace treaty between the Federation and the State from where we are today. All I ask is that despite our current hostility that we act out of mutual humanity to prevent destruction of Caldari Prime on a planetary scale. Even two Nations at war should be able to recognize the need for protecting civilians from atrocity. |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
509
|
Posted - 2013.03.11 21:53:00 -
[148] - Quote
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: If the Federation truly wished for peace with the State then it should have adjusted its foreign policy accordingly and not wait until the State called the continued bluffs and sabre-rattling by men such as Blaque or the Sociocrats in order to disabuse the Federation of any notions that we will gladly accept threats to the sovereign interests of the Caldari State.
If peace is truly sought by the citizens of the Federation, then make it to the interests of the State to do so, because feigning affectations and offering nothing in return will never suffice.
So what you are suggesting is that the Federation agree to peace on Caldari terms? Essentially surrendering to the Caldari State? The Federation surrendering to the State is as unlikely an outcome of this "war" as the State allowing Caldari Prime to remain under Federation control.
You had the right idea at the beginning, but like many of us from both sides of the argument we get lost in our national pride.
Peace terms have to be mutual or unconditional in order for them to work. One side giving up more than the other will only lead to future conflict, many examples can be cited in this case.
We will stop our saber-rattling when you stop your gun toting, particularly in Luminaire.
I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
James Syagrius
The Philalethes Society
299
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Posted - 2013.03.13 18:00:00 -
[149] - Quote
Villore GÇô In an interview, Black Eagles Director Mentas Blaque has spoken out about what he sees as a "devolution of Federation ideals" and a "dangerous trend toward risk and personal gain."
President Roden would be wise to sack Director Blaque.
While appreciating the need for covert operations to defend the Federation from her enemies, a government set against the people cannot long endure. "We are what we do." |
Adel Khamez
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2013.03.14 20:08:00 -
[150] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:I do not want to bequeath this war to my children and their children's children. If there is truly a way towards an honourable peace, then I'll support it - whichever side of the line it comes from.
Thank you for being a voice of sanity.
The Khanid, and the rest of Amarr have your back, regardless.
If God wills it, may peace be upon you. Amarr Victor, Deus Vult
+¦+à+¦ +º+ä+à+å+¬+¦+¦+î +Ñ+¦+º +¦+º+í +º+ä+ä+ç |
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