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Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
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Posted - 2013.03.12 08:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
tried serveral ships with armor ancil reppers .... am I the only one, who thinks they suck?
especially if I compare them to ancil boosters.
1) low rep rate with paste (maybe it is bugged but no big difference to non paste rep) 2) can fit only 1
Maybe I am doing it wrong but so far the only setup i like it on was the dragoon so i dont have to bail the cap for the neuts.
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March rabbit
No Name No Pain
587
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Posted - 2013.03.12 08:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
personally i think ancillary reppers are mainly designed to use by mission runners as rescue button in case if you got overwhelmed and need short boost in tanking to get out.
Not sure if they can be somehow used in PvP. Maybe frigate fights: the whole fight lasts around 1 minute and ancillary repper will work in "paste" mode like 2x reppers. |
Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
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Posted - 2013.03.12 08:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:personally i think ancillary reppers are mainly designed to use by mission runners as rescue button in case if you got overwhelmed and need short boost in tanking to get out.
Not sure if they can be somehow used in PvP. Maybe frigate fights: the whole fight lasts around 1 minute and ancillary repper will work in "paste" mode like 2x reppers.
well i am using them in frig dessie fights .... and the paste mode DOES NOT WORK LIKE 2 reppers ... something is wrong.
and well for pve it is useless third repper will work better.... but i am not carebear so hard to say |
March rabbit
No Name No Pain
587
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Posted - 2013.03.12 09:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:March rabbit wrote:personally i think ancillary reppers are mainly designed to use by mission runners as rescue button in case if you got overwhelmed and need short boost in tanking to get out.
Not sure if they can be somehow used in PvP. Maybe frigate fights: the whole fight lasts around 1 minute and ancillary repper will work in "paste" mode like 2x reppers. and the paste mode DOES NOT WORK LIKE 2 reppers ... something is wrong. you sure? they explicitly said "AR reps 2/3 of standard repper. In paste mode its rep amount is 3x" (which is 2x of standard repper)
btw: "standard repper" was somehow not clear for me because we have 5 "standard" reppesr from Meta 0 to Meta 5 (T2). Haven't checked tho |
Armeggeda iscariah
Ganja Labs Exodus.
34
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Posted - 2013.03.12 09:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ancil reps work great on frigs in 1v1's that get rep bonuses. also work good on frigs that have high resists. been using it on my enyo recently , Got in a really good 2v4 Fight with it (Enyo/Atron Vs Enyo/Merlin/Maller/Rapier) and didnt lose my poor enyo because of the ancil rep.
--------------------------------------He who dares , wins. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
641
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Posted - 2013.03.12 09:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
You need a plate to use them properly on a frig. Can't do the whole bait tanking thing you can do with an ASB. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
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Posted - 2013.03.12 12:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:You need a plate to use them properly on a frig. Can't do the whole bait tanking thing you can do with an ASB.
Well maybe it is just a matter of feel ... I am usually using at least 200mm plate on the ship wit A repper. And I had some good fights with that ships too..... but nothing stellar as with ASB. :) |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
641
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Posted - 2013.03.12 13:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:You need a plate to use them properly on a frig. Can't do the whole bait tanking thing you can do with an ASB. Well maybe it is just a matter of feel ... I am usually using at least 200mm plate on the ship wit A repper. And I had some good fights with that ships too..... but nothing stellar as with ASB. :)
The thing with the ASB is that its a massive boost that is instant while the AAR is delayed.
The difference doesn't feel THAT great between using an AAR and a t2 but its there, recently did a 2v1 vs tristan and merlin and i managed to kill the tristan when i was in 30% hull. Would never have even attempted that with a t2. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
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Posted - 2013.03.12 13:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:You need a plate to use them properly on a frig. Can't do the whole bait tanking thing you can do with an ASB. Well maybe it is just a matter of feel ... I am usually using at least 200mm plate on the ship wit A repper. And I had some good fights with that ships too..... but nothing stellar as with ASB. :) The thing with the ASB is that its a massive boost that is instant while the AAR is delayed. The difference doesn't feel THAT great between using an AAR and a t2 but its there, recently did a 2v1 vs tristan and merlin and i managed to kill the tristan when i was in 30% hull. Would never have even attempted that with a t2.
well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
641
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Posted - 2013.03.12 13:40:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:You need a plate to use them properly on a frig. Can't do the whole bait tanking thing you can do with an ASB. Well maybe it is just a matter of feel ... I am usually using at least 200mm plate on the ship wit A repper. And I had some good fights with that ships too..... but nothing stellar as with ASB. :) The thing with the ASB is that its a massive boost that is instant while the AAR is delayed. The difference doesn't feel THAT great between using an AAR and a t2 but its there, recently did a 2v1 vs tristan and merlin and i managed to kill the tristan when i was in 30% hull. Would never have even attempted that with a t2. well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap.
Dual rep setups take up two slots and need a cap booster so they are generally ****.
The AAR does not rep 2x that of a T2 its more like 1.66X or something (Havn't done maaaath) Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
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Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
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Posted - 2013.03.12 13:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:You need a plate to use them properly on a frig. Can't do the whole bait tanking thing you can do with an ASB. Well maybe it is just a matter of feel ... I am usually using at least 200mm plate on the ship wit A repper. And I had some good fights with that ships too..... but nothing stellar as with ASB. :) The thing with the ASB is that its a massive boost that is instant while the AAR is delayed. The difference doesn't feel THAT great between using an AAR and a t2 but its there, recently did a 2v1 vs tristan and merlin and i managed to kill the tristan when i was in 30% hull. Would never have even attempted that with a t2. well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap. Dual rep setups take up two slots and need a cap booster so they are generally ****. The AAR does not rep 2x that of a T2 its more like 1.66X or something (Havn't done maaaath)
that might be the problem ... it is just the edge of the 2v1 fights if you are pined down. And it is definetly beyond buffer fit of 400mm plate and APL in case u decide to buffer tank and hope.
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Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
350
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Posted - 2013.03.12 14:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
the Ancill armor rep was slated from the moment people understood how they would work. As usual though CCP didn't listen and did what they thought was best... despite being told the glaring issues that it presented.
It didn't bridge the gap between the shield and armor tanking disparities (EHP versus active). Changes to rigs and small reductions on fitting helped but not enough to make this module fully sort these discrepancies. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14458
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Posted - 2013.03.12 14:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
They are very underwhelming. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
641
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 15:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:the Ancill armor rep was slated from the moment people understood how they would work. As usual though CCP didn't listen and did what they thought was best... despite being told the glaring issues that it presented.
It didn't bridge the gap between the shield and armor tanking disparities (EHP versus active). Changes to rigs and small reductions on fitting helped but not enough to make this module fully sort these discrepancies.
Well AAR's outperform t2 for about 19 cycles
ASB's outperform t2 for about 11-13 i think.
I personally think they are really good but w/e Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
145
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Posted - 2013.03.12 16:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
isnt the trick to fit an ancil and a normal rep and pulse the ancil wen single reps breaking... i dk iv not really tried them but told the incursus and other rep bonused ships work well like this
GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
411
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Posted - 2013.03.12 16:28:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap.
Use one AAR and one normal rep. Primarily run the normal rep, and pulse the AAR as you need to catch up. They work very nicely together I find.
EDIT: Yeah pretty much what Alucard said. |
Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
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Posted - 2013.03.12 16:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap. Use one AAR and one normal rep. Primarily run the normal rep, and pulse the AAR as you need to catch up. They work very nicely together I find. EDIT: Yeah pretty much what Alucard said.
well nice on the paper but betterto run two normal reps ... long fightwise |
Mire Stoude
Antelope with Night Vision Goggles
137
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Posted - 2013.03.12 18:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Active tanking is just broken, the AAR would be ok if it was active tanking was balanced. The only reason ASB's are good is because larger sizes can be fit to smaller ships (sometimes 2 or 3 of them).
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate Samurai Pizza Cats
411
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Posted - 2013.03.12 18:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:chatgris wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap. Use one AAR and one normal rep. Primarily run the normal rep, and pulse the AAR as you need to catch up. They work very nicely together I find. EDIT: Yeah pretty much what Alucard said. well nice on the paper but betterto run two normal reps ... long fightwise
well, I turn auto reload off on my AAR's all the time. And most of my fights I find I need more repping power early as I try to get into my optimal//fight multiple people and towards the end of the fight I am at my optimal, taking less damage, and/or I've killed some people and the incoming dps has dropped off.
For example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPFpkeKgE_Q : My AAR didn't run out of paste until after the merlin was in armor. After that, it wasn't bad tanking a hookbill with the un-nanited repper. This is pretty much how much of my AAR fights go against multiple people. |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
35
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Posted - 2013.03.12 21:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
You had SAR and MAR fits that worked before. Now they are just better. What's the problem with that? |
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Inkarr Hashur
Sacrificial Lambs The Devil's Warrior Alliance
248
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Posted - 2013.03.12 22:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
Seraph Castillon wrote:You had SAR and MAR fits that worked before. Now they are just better. What's the problem with that?
I guess no one's made a xXNoScopeGanjaXx youtube pvp vid showing off the new modules yet? Sometimes the metagame just takes time to reveal itself. I think MJDs as well still receive very little attention and discussion for what is an excellent new module. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1079
|
Posted - 2013.03.12 22:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
The SAAR is fantastic. I waited a week after they came out before buying some Rifters and equipping them thus:
High: 200mm II x 3 Rocket Launcher II Mid: AB II Web Scram Low: SAAR EANM II Internal Force Field Array Rigs: Projectile Burst Armor Aucilliary Nano Pump x 2
Absolute killing spree. Loved it. Merlins, incursi, comets, rff, slashers, tristans,-- great little surprise! |
Umega
Solis Mensa
136
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Posted - 2013.03.13 01:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
I found them to be a bonus.. a significant step up.
Watch out for the words of lemmings, the cookie-cutter cults. They aren't very adapt at thinking for themselves.. spitting out what they heard from some one else they trust, and that person could very will be just a **** lucky PvP pilot.. running glorified killboard stats that don't showcase them using pills/boosters/RR alts to achieve the numbers, all while preying on 'easy' targets.
TDs. For years, very few players were preaching their effectiveness.. while the majority ignored. Something changed.. without the module actually changing.. and now TDs are the rage. Sometimes.. **** changes without **** actually being changed. Ideas change.. I could run off a list of ship/weapon/mod cookie cut changes that happened, without any significant mechanic changes taking place to promote the switch.
And you can't discount all the surrounding parameters of AARs. Rigs.. no penality to piloting. ASBs likely going to promote higher sigs.. no matter how little (and sometimes not so little the sig bloom), that equates to taking more dmg.. it is a Fact and no reason to discount such. Couple points in sig bloom upwards could make the difference from hits landing as 'grazing' to hit' or even 'penetrates'. Increasing sig is going to have a positive impact on your opponent(s) dps curve, fact. No longer being slower going active armor is a HUGE bonus.
Given the changes to hulls, and more to come.. a lot of ships are now supporting utlity highs, more so than in the past. The chance of coming across neuts are more likely.. and the ability to fit NOS more likely as well. ASBs fits generally side-step cap-boosters.. AARs fit usually won't. What's the point? Active armor ships are likely going to have better cap reserves than ASBs.. which leads to resists. Armor are gifted with a capless omni protection mods.. shield omni needs cap, see where this is going? On top of this.. the passive bonuses to active hardeners are now bye-bye.
Oh, and DCU is still more friendly to armor ships.. which happen to be Gallente and Amarr.. which happen to be the two highest structure classes.. again, benefitting from DCU even further.
You can blindly look at the one number.. but it isn't the whole equation of fights/fits. To think that one number you decided to focus on as being the determining factor towards deciding if something is good or bad.. is, imo.. a stupid, half-assed way of figuring things worth. |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
120
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 02:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
In 30 seconds the saar dumps the equivilent of a t2 400mm plate. Turn off auto reload and it will take that time again before a t2 sar overtakes it. In a frig fight, someones dead by then and as mentioned before it's often the first 30 secs where you need the rep the most.
They're solid.
The aar means I can leave the plate off and keep the speed. Attack frigs are the biggest winners here. The only thing wrong with them is their price, which looks like it has stabilized around 6 mill atm. More BP drops please. |
Hidden Snake
Hidden Squid Society
276
|
Posted - 2013.03.13 07:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
chatgris wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:chatgris wrote:Hidden Snake wrote:well did some tests with my friend and so far it looks dual rep setups perform better .... sigh so far the only plus is in a moment you want to save cap. Use one AAR and one normal rep. Primarily run the normal rep, and pulse the AAR as you need to catch up. They work very nicely together I find. EDIT: Yeah pretty much what Alucard said. well nice on the paper but betterto run two normal reps ... long fightwise well, I turn auto reload off on my AAR's all the time. And most of my fights I find I need more repping power early as I try to get into my optimal//fight multiple people and towards the end of the fight I am at my optimal, taking less damage, and/or I've killed some people and the incoming dps has dropped off. For example, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPFpkeKgE_Q : My AAR didn't run out of paste until after the merlin was in armor. After that, it wasn't bad tanking a hookbill with the un-nanited repper. This is pretty much how much of my AAR fights go against multiple people.
yeah I found it "working" on my optimal speed tanking comets and firetails, but not the brawler fits. but in longer fights still they are meh .... |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
251
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Posted - 2013.03.13 10:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hidden Snake wrote:yeah I found it "working" on my optimal speed tanking comets and firetails, but not the brawler fits. but in longer fights still they are meh .... AAR is not meant to be better than regular AR for longer fights. They are not meant to obsolete regular AR. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
388
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Posted - 2013.03.15 10:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
The VC's wrote:In 30 seconds the saar dumps the equivilent of a t2 400mm plate. Turn off auto reload and it will take that time again before a t2 sar overtakes it. In a frig fight, someones dead by then and as mentioned before it's often the first 30 secs where you need the rep the most.
They're solid.
The aar means I can leave the plate off and keep the speed. Attack frigs are the biggest winners here. The only thing wrong with them is their price, which looks like it has stabilized around 6 mill atm. More BP drops please.
repper is never same than plate, if someone can instapop your repper does not help. (example arty trasher) |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
121
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Posted - 2013.03.15 11:25:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bad Messenger wrote:The VC's wrote:In 30 seconds the saar dumps the equivilent of a t2 400mm plate. Turn off auto reload and it will take that time again before a t2 sar overtakes it. In a frig fight, someones dead by then and as mentioned before it's often the first 30 secs where you need the rep the most.
They're solid.
The aar means I can leave the plate off and keep the speed. Attack frigs are the biggest winners here. The only thing wrong with them is their price, which looks like it has stabilized around 6 mill atm. More BP drops please. repper is never same than plate, if someone can instapop your repper does not help. (example arty trasher)
Whoever told you it was the same as a plate is an idiot, and yes, high alpha is very effective against active tankers, something which every good active tanker knows. You can manage the risk by not putting yourself in that position in the first place.
However, AAR's rep the equivalent hp of a T2 400mm plate in 30 seconds and in the right engagement (not arty thrashers) that can be very effective.
ps, Stay away from medium and large neuts too, they'll also ruin your day. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
137
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Posted - 2013.03.15 11:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alpha and Cap are the reasons I would use plate plus rep combo, personally I feel the SAAR is pretty good, especially on a bonused frigate, it is great on my comet too.
I do doubt the stat posted my calculations suggested that overheated SAAR + 2x Nano pumps is the same as a RT 400m plate +2x Trimarks after 46 seconds, it is also better than overheated MASB + one raw boost from cap at the end after 27s with the rigs 35sec without.
Things change at cruiser level MAAR compares well against LASB and LSE surpassing both around 46 seconds but not (perhaps understandably) against 1600mm plate and XL-ASB.
LAAR+ rigs also can compare not as well to XL-ASB +SBA II over an extended period, here you rely on advantages of armour EHP and mid slot e-war more to offset apparent raw tank.
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Denuo Secus
148
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
I made the opposite experience. One of the major benefits of the AAR is its ability to be useful when run out of nanite. An ASB just stops to work after ~30sec. Which leads to dual ASB setups - low on EHP and more or less gimped fittings. Maybe I just do it wrong but I never had much luck with single ASB setups - contrary to single AAR + (not oversized) plate setups. |
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