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Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
53
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Posted - 2013.03.15 13:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
Not sure what it's like in other space, but missions vs hisec Angels are a lot more interesting since the AI changes. Specifically the agro vs drones. Instead of habitually dragging out the Machariel whenever I need a bit of ISK I now have to think twice. A clumsy shot can end up with a scram and a few webs that drones no longer have a 100% chance to save me from.
Now I'm looking at other (cheaper) ships to play with. AC Mael to be safe, Tempest FE for a bit more punch without breaking the bank.
More chaos and more options thanks CCP! |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
26
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's all good and well for turret based ships, but for drone platforms a lot of the missions have somewhat broken aggression towards them, to the point where it is only possible to use sentries until all that is left are tackling frigates.
I am all for the more intelligent AI, but right now I don't think it is balanced quite right.
there are some lvl 4 missions where i can complete everything without being targeted and pulling the sentry drone the AI aggros results in them doing nothing while i kill them all. |
Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
55
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
As a (rightly guessed) turret junkie, I don't quite understand your post.
Sentries don't get agro? Drone boats ignore tackle frigs until everything else is gone? You can confuse the AI so that they are ineffective by docking your drones?
That all seems like easy mode. I'm sure I've misunderstood. |
Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
1264
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Minimal Charisma wrote:As a (rightly guessed) turret junkie, I don't quite understand your post.
Sentries don't get agro? Drone boats ignore tackle frigs until everything else is gone? You can confuse the AI so that they are ineffective by docking your drones?
That all seems like easy mode. I'm sure I've misunderstood.
He's complaining that the AI goes after the real threats shooting them now instead of keeping a lock on him. It's not so bad with sentry's because they remain next to you and attack while you RR them.
Essentially Drone boats can't aggro the whole room and afk the mission anymore. |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
26
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Minimal Charisma wrote:As a (rightly guessed) turret junkie, I don't quite understand your post.
Sentries don't get agro? Drone boats ignore tackle frigs until everything else is gone? You can confuse the AI so that they are ineffective by docking your drones?
That all seems like easy mode. I'm sure I've misunderstood.
to an extent you have yes,
AI in some cases will only aggro drones. making it next to impossible to use anything other than sentries (because they have higher ehp and can be instantly recalled).
because of this unless tackle frigates can be killed before they get into orbit, it is often better to ignore them until anything that will pretty much instapop light of meds has been removed.
as for the AI getting confused that seems to be a bug. from what i understand even when a drone is pulled the AI does not properly unlock it, but also will not fire because it is not on the field resulting in the rats doing nothing. |
Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
55
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:
He's complaining that the AI goes after the real threats shooting them now instead of keeping a lock on him. It's not so bad with sentry's because they remain next to you and attack while you RR them.
Essentially Drone boats can't aggro the whole room and afk the mission anymore.
Ahh. My mistake. I was always under the impression the Gals were in to a bit of adjusted pleasure. Turns out they were really about laying back and letting others doing the work. Oh well. |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
27
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote:Minimal Charisma wrote:As a (rightly guessed) turret junkie, I don't quite understand your post.
Sentries don't get agro? Drone boats ignore tackle frigs until everything else is gone? You can confuse the AI so that they are ineffective by docking your drones?
That all seems like easy mode. I'm sure I've misunderstood. He's complaining that the AI goes after the real threats shooting them now instead of keeping a lock on him. It's not so bad with sentry's because they remain next to you and attack while you RR them. Essentially Drone boats can't aggro the whole room and afk the mission anymore.
it's a matter of balance, personally i run missions very rarely tbh. but the result of the AI is that anything other than sentries are useless.
the difficult of missions hasn't particularly changed. I have never been an AFK mission runner, and i was testing the aggro using a rattlesnake with cruise.
the end result is that sentries and mjd become mandatory for any drone boat. hardly helping the game remain diverse.
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Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
1264
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
monkfish2345 wrote:Micheal Dietrich wrote:Minimal Charisma wrote:As a (rightly guessed) turret junkie, I don't quite understand your post.
Sentries don't get agro? Drone boats ignore tackle frigs until everything else is gone? You can confuse the AI so that they are ineffective by docking your drones?
That all seems like easy mode. I'm sure I've misunderstood. He's complaining that the AI goes after the real threats shooting them now instead of keeping a lock on him. It's not so bad with sentry's because they remain next to you and attack while you RR them. Essentially Drone boats can't aggro the whole room and afk the mission anymore. it's a matter of balance, personally i run missions very rarely tbh. but the result of the AI is that anything other than sentries are useless. the difficult of missions hasn't particularly changed. I have never been an AFK mission runner, and i was testing the aggro using a rattlesnake with cruise. the end result is that sentries and mjd become mandatory for any drone boat. hardly helping the game remain diverse.
The man is always trying to oppress the Drone Brothers and Sisters!
The other drones are still viable, you just have to be a little more proactive on when to use them and when to call them back now. Sorry man, gotta play the game now. |
Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
56
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Posted - 2013.03.15 14:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
The Drone Boat guys seem to not be happy. I was annoyed and lost some T2 drones the first few missions too. (who cares about the drones, but putting a scrammed 2B ship at risk is something to think about). Is it just that drone boats have to adjust a bit? As I have?
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Micheal Dietrich
Kings Gambit Black
1264
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
My tactics only changed slightly. Usually I would try to wipe out a few of the larger ships and push drones about halfway into a battle and making sure to recall them on spawns. But seeing how frigs do slap damage to my hull anyways I figure on just leaving them there until the end and then I'll let the lights clean up, unless the webbing bugs me too much or I get a scrammer. |
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monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
27
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
it's easy enough to adjust to the changes, with a mjd and sentries the missions are if anything easier than ever.
The point i was trying to make was that making changes that make certain fittings next to mandatory for efficiency is not a good thing. there is no point using heavies or meds because a flight of bouncers or gardes do the job better without risk of wasting isk. now with the mjd getting under their tracking is far less of an issue.
personally if i was to run missions i'd normally use a mach anyway. i'm just trying to get across that the AI changes have effected drone boats far more than anyone else. |
Minimal Charisma
Padded Sell
56
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Agree that it looks like mediums and heavies are useless now. Anyone have a use for them?
Lights are still good for cautious defense against fast frigs.
Not used sentries myself. |
monkfish2345
D'reg The Methodical Alliance
28
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Minimal Charisma wrote:Agree that it looks like mediums and heavies are useless now. Anyone have a use for them?
Lights are still good for cautious defense against fast frigs.
Not used sentries myself.
they are still fine for pvp because people tend not to go after drones.just in PVE they are very difficult to use effectively. |
Kodama Ikari
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
29
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Micheal Dietrich wrote: He's complaining that the AI goes after the real threats shooting them now instead of keeping a lock on him. It's not so bad with sentry's because they remain next to you and attack while you RR them.
Essentially Drone boats can't aggro the whole room and afk the mission anymore.
I really hate this sentiment (probaby because it doesn't describe how I played and its used to justify a change that affects me). Any ship that can perma-rep/perma-tank could go afk and they still can. Drones are about as smart as FOF missiles, most of the time you would try this tactic (and go literally 10-15 minutes without looking at the screen) you'd end up with dead drones due to respawns/new wave, or your sentries would be shooting a frigate that they can't track. The only time drones could reasonably be left to their own devices is once you've cleared all small ships, dealt with any unique mechanics or respawns of the particular encounter, and are just chewing through 3-10 BS/BC while tanking. In other words, 95% of the hard work and attention-paying is done. Now imagine you are in this situation. Frigates and Ewar cleared, no respawns, dps manageable, just grinding through the last few ships of the mission/complex. The "Hard Part" is done.
1 Non-drone ship - Home free. Press f1, switch targets, repeat 2 Drone Ship (not getting drone aggro) - Home free. Press f1, switch targets, repeat. Your drones sometimes switch for you. 3 Drone Ship (getting drone aggro) - constantly scooping and releasing drones, targeting individuals to apply reps, etc. The easiest part of the mission now requires constant micromanagement. You're at the DPS grind part of the mission, and your drone dps has plummeted because you're needing to scoop and rep constantly.
The reason this change has honked me off so much is that its hurt explorers more than "afk missioners" and its hurt the gila/ishtar more than the domi and the rattlesnake. The gila and ishtar get more of their dps from drones than the domi and snake, and their ability to remote rep drones is much much less than those two ships. Furthermore, they can't use the large MJDs, which the domi and snake can use to great effect. Also, drone ships make a lot of sacrifices to use drones. In particular, if you're using sentries, you give up MOBILITY (unless you have a MJD lololololol). Honestly, having your sentries auto-switch for the last 5 minutes of a mission seems like a pretty insignificant advantage. if the 1% of people that were literally afking the entire mission/encoutner/whatever, I'd much rather have ccp change drones so they must be manually ordered to aggro a new target than make them harder to use for everyone in every situation.
Also, when CCP made the change, they cited this one particular place (not even a mission) where players were setting up afk-domis to make hundreds of millions of isk per day. Some kind of static cosmos plex or something. I can't find the bluepost or devblog that mentioned it, but it seemed like a really absurd edge case to use to justify the whole overhaul.
Lastly, I reject the entire notion that PVE content needs to be more like PVP content, in terms of ewar and AI. If it was, missions would not pit you against 1:10 odds regularly, and offensive ewar besides target painting and webbing would have a point (it doesn't because jamming 1 ship out of 10 is still pointless). Some first-hand PI tips |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1118
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 16:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Wow so CCP has alts now, too? EvE is like prison.-á It's a place when bad people go to learn how to become even worse people. |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1210
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Want to draw aggro away from your drones? Bring in a Noctis... NPCs seems to love the hell out of my Noctii when I drop them into active rooms... "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
Norm Tempesta
The Konvergent League Sev3rance
25
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Posted - 2013.03.15 18:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
The drone AI changes had a big effect on me iskwise. Before, I could run 8/10 DED complexes solo in my proteus, but now I can't due to the fact that I cannot let my drones loose to go kill the stasis towers because the drones die before they can finish one tower. There may be a way to get around this but I have not discovered it yet. The Proteus has to move to stay alive.
As a result, I guess I need to train for and buy a new ship that is able to solo these complexes (any hints or suggestions would be appreciated, trolls----who cares). I have had to run them (when I can find them) with someone else, cutting my isk for doing them in half.
So in summary, one of my primary isk sources has been reduced by half, unless I can find another way (ie, different ship which results in a loss of training time and isk). There may be some simple solution that I have overlooked... |
Xercodo
Xovoni Directorate
2225
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 18:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
I actually jsut built a navy domi and am loving it so far.
Only lost one ogre during Stop the Thief and I dont even know when or how lol
Besides that the damage bonus from the domi jacked up my hobs so much that they nearly two shotted all the frigates
Ogres are pretty awesome for tear a new one for a Mercenary machariel (yet to try an angel mach).
Personally It's not near as bad as people think really. The Drake is a Lie |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
631
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 19:32:00 -
[19] - Quote
Seems more like a neutral change from where I sit. Haven't changed a single fit on a ship save carrying a few spare lights since I've had some die near instantly even at 20km range. I haven't changed the way I fly my turret or drone boats save a lot more recalls. I've almost totally sworn off use of large drones unless there are no frigates on the field and the ship I'm shooting is under 10km since sentries are far more versatile and safer to use beyond those ranges.
Also no longer using drone based cruisers much as their non-drone DPS and utility can be anemic and one of the better ways of using them, dropping sentries and orbiting to mitigate incoming damage, can't be used in a reliable fashion.
Not seeing how the claim of things being more interesting plays out. I'm only getting more tedium. Not even feeling encouraged to change fits, ships or tactics really. It's not a terrible change, but it falls well short of its intended goal. |
Castor Narcissus
Outerspace Vanguard
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 01:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
If you say the changes were meant to stop the afk drone boats then you are dumb. If they wanted to do that they could just remove aggressive stance, revamp drone interface (which it's actually something that takes work and testing) and make drones work like a turret slot.
But that would take too much trouble, better copy paste sleeper aggro mechanics, call it advanced AI (aka random target instead of a first contact aggro) and stick it in patch. +1 Feature |
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