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Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
The subject says it all. Wholesale ganking of mining barges in highsec has picked up again. I had a Hulk fitted for nullsec successfully ganked by two destroyers in highsec. While poking around killmails, I found an orca that had been ganked in high sec by a gang of 24. Why is that a problem? It had less than 7 million ISK worth of cargo in it:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/engagement.php?id=19043594 (and no the orca pilot wasn't at war as he was in an NPC corp)
That's wholesale ganking for nothing except statistics boosting and that shouldn't be happening in highsec.
There needs to be a balance between those that like to destroy and those that like to create, or else one group will leave. Those that like to destroy have an enormous playground called lowsec and nullsec. Highsec is the playground of industry. I know of no changes that inhibit the destroyers from having a good time in their playground.
Kill rights are awesome, but they don't make up for getting back 45 million ISK from Platinum insurance (I got 65 million back from the insurance which cost 20 million) for a 200 million ISK ship (not including fittings). Especially since it probably cost the gankers less than 10 million ISK.
The last time this kind of behavor was happening, I cancelled the subscriptions on my two accounts for a year and half. And this time I haven't paid for 6 months in advance. I learned my lesson.
Here's some ideas on how to solve this:
1) My understanding is that insurance is no longer paid out for ganker's ships for attacks in high sec. That's a good step and I hope that hasn't changed.
2) Change the killmails for unauthorized ganks in highsec. Obviously, part of what these people are looking for is boosting their stats. Don't give them the stats. Only provide that ships were destroyed, who had their ships destroyed and who did the destroying (and the system). Don't provide information about what ships were destroyed or what was dropped. That way there's no stat boosting from easy targets in highsec.
3) Change the kill rights so that they allow for more than just one ship destroyed. Most of these guys are flying around in T1 fitted destroyers that don't cost much. As already indicated, destroying one or two 5 million ISK ships doesn't make up for the destruction of one 200 million ISK ship. Perhaps the kill right would be satisfied once the value of the ganker's ships destroyed equals the value of the ship destroyed by the ganker (or when 30 days is up). In other words, if you had two gankers destroying a 200 million ISK Hulk, the kill rights would allow for the destruction of 100 million ISK worth of ships for each of the two gankers (200 million divided by two). The kill right would still expire after 30 days, but within that time period the kill right allows for the destruction of ships up to a total calculated by the value of the destroyed ship. If a 200 million ISK ship were destroyed by five gankers, it would be 40 million each. This would also mitigate people using alts to get rid of kill rights.
4) The ganker can run around and gank people at will, but the ganked can only execute a kill right for 15 minutes at a time? The kill right should be able to be left on as long as the kill right remains available to the ganked, but the kill right can be turned on or off once every 30 minutes minutes (to prevent idiots from spamming it). In other words, the ganked can turn on the kill right and leave it on the entire remaining time the kill right provides if they so desire.
5) The destruction of a shuttle or newb ship should not qualify for the satisfaction of a kill right. Perhaps there should be a value limit under which the ship doesn't count? Of course, this could be ignored if #3 were implemented since the value is so small it wouldn't make a difference.
6) The email notification sent to the person on the other end of a kill right currently gives too much information. The only thing it should say is that the kill right has been activated. It shouldn't say that it's for everyone, for the corporation, or for a given individual. The ganker should be looking over their shoulder wondering where the attack is going to come from rather than potentially knowing and being able to look out for those hunting them.
I especially like #3. It brings some parity between the value of the ships being destroyed by the gankers and the ships that can be destroyed via kill rights.
P.S. I'm a long time player obviously using an alt to avoid the inevitable hatemail from cowardly whiners that like to destroy ships that can't fight back.
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DataRunner Attor
Independent Confederacy of Worlds
22
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Wow.. Uh huh... Lets see here, where my umbrella to protect me from the troll droll from all the trolls that are about to hit this thread....
Lets see here what you are suggesting mate. You are suggesting slowly turning highsec from a sandbox style game to a theme park style game.
I'm sorry mate but this will never happen, and may hell freeze over before CCP takes away our ability to gank carebears like you in high sec =V |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
258
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
I see no problem here, aside from you. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
406
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
I will read the rest of that mountainous volume of text when you answer this question:
Kajin Kanjus wrote:That's wholesale ganking for nothing except statistics boosting and that shouldn't be happening in highsec. Why? Why should this not happen in highsec? MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose. The purpose is to allow those that don't want to be in constant danger of having their stuff destroyed a place to go and do their thing. Otherwise, there's no reason to have a highsec. If that goes out the window again (as it did during Hulkegeddeon), those people will start to leave again.
You children out there that decry the carebears don't understand they help keep this game alive and help keep this game around so you can play it. Whether you like it or not, you need them. You need them because CCP needs them. If this weren't true, "Retribution" would never have happened. It would have a different name with a different theme.
High sec ganking has a place in this game. But it should be to get loot worth the risk or the repercussions, not just because it boosts stats. It appears that the repercussions are still too low.
Hakan MacTrew wrote:I will read the rest of that mountainous volume of text when you answer this question: Kajin Kanjus wrote:That's wholesale ganking for nothing except statistics boosting and that shouldn't be happening in highsec. Why? Why should this not happen in highsec?
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Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
354
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Posted - 2013.03.15 15:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:cowardly whiners
That's rich.
Kajin Kanjus wrote: those people will start to leave again.
No they don't. That would be proactive. Can't have that. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14515
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote: Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose.
High security, not total or perfect security.
It's purpose is to be safer than low and null, not safe.
Oh and you say you lost a Hulk to 2 destroyers. Saying it was fit for null, means nothing tbh. How was it fit exactly?
Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
I forgot one thing that couples with #3. Players don't get insurance on ships destroyed via a kill right.
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Sinigr Shadowsong
War Tactical Groups SOLAR FLEET
58
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
High-sec os not a safe-zone. High-sec is not a sacntuary. High-sec is not a WoW city in space. High security does not mean absolute immunity.
Mag's wrote: Oh and you say you lost a Hulk to 2 destroyers. Saying it was fit for null, means nothing tbh. How was it fit exactly?
I bet it was fit for maximum ore yield. |
Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Kajin Kanjus wrote: Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose.
High security, not total or perfect security. It's purpose is to be safer than low and null, not safe. Oh and you say you lost a Hulk to 2 destroyers. Saying it was fit for null, means nothing tbh. How was it fit exactly?
I agree completely that it should not be perfectly safe. That would take a lot out of the game. But it shouldn't be routine to destroy ships there either. It was like that in Hulkageddeon and it's starting up again. No one should have to worry about every single person that comes into highsec and wonder whether they care going to attack you. That's no different from low/nullsec. That's what it was like during Hulkageddeon and that's what's starting up again. If that's what CCP and everyone wants, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. Just isn't right for me or a lot of other paying subscribers either.
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Velicitia
Arma Artificer
1239
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Nullsec tanked hulk is great for rats (where they're more the "wear you down with low alpha, high dps") ... not so hot for player pirates (where the name of the game is "alpha").
With that said, ships exploding is always a good thing (for business, anyway). Gankers _DO_ lose their ships, and, well you need a new hulk now.
The real interesting thing is going to be when the miners realize that trit is 6.5 ISK/unit nearby, because that's where the indy pilots are making a killing by selling to both sides (dessies to the pirates, barges to the miners). Granted, they'll never put up anything as heinous as a system or constellation or region-wide embargo on minerals ... but goddamn that would make for good gameplay...
Miners (and by extension, industrial corps/alliances) -- you have your supply area by the balls ... if you get together AND STOP MINING AND SELLING GOODS ON THE OPEN MARKET the area's economy will collapse. Sure, it also means you're not selling on the open market and making your wallet grow fat ...
... but you can mine ... ... i need minerals ... ... I trade completed (whatever you need) for minerals ... ... we're both happy ... ... market starts having fewer and fewer dessies/whatever ... ... pirates now have longer and longer logistics chains... ... OTHER pirates gank these logistics chains (because, seriously ... it's not like it's "all the gankers over here" vs "all the carebears over here") ...
One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia Malcanis for CSM8 |
Ersahi Kir
Freelance Mining Company
19
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
I don't think I've had a miner lose a mining barge or exhumer since the change. But my miners fly procurers and skiffs.
Just some food for thought. |
Warcalibre
FDA Shipwrights
13
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:35:00 -
[13] - Quote
This thread. Wow. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14515
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:Mag's wrote:Kajin Kanjus wrote: Because that is HIGH SECURITY space. Not lowsec. Not nullsec. It has a purpose.
High security, not total or perfect security. It's purpose is to be safer than low and null, not safe. Oh and you say you lost a Hulk to 2 destroyers. Saying it was fit for null, means nothing tbh. How was it fit exactly? I agree completely that it should not be perfectly safe. That would take a lot out of the game. But it shouldn't be routine to destroy ships there either. It was like that in Hulkageddeon and it's starting up again. No one should have to worry about every single person that comes into highsec and wonder whether they care going to attack you. That's no different from low/nullsec. That's what it was like during Hulkageddeon and that's what's starting up again. If that's what CCP and everyone wants, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. Just isn't right for me or a lot of other paying subscribers either. Then I fear you are playing the wrong game.
You see Eve is a sandbox at it's core. The point of a sandbox, is to allow people to improve and succeed in what ever they wish within it's walls. But this means the everyone else can do the same and sometimes this means they interfere with your goals. High sec simply mean they have far more consequences to deal with, if they shoot you and it's not a legal act.
The trouble you have now, is that CCP already buffed Barges and now you can fit a great tank. You just have to use the right ship and modules. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ersahi Kir wrote:I don't think I've had a miner lose a mining barge or exhumer since the change. But my miners fly procurers and skiffs.
Just some food for thought.
Yeah, I hear ya. I've changed now too. The only thing is you lose even more ore volume given the lower bonuses, even when compared to a hard fitted Hulk. No point in having Hulks if you can't fly them in highsec. |
Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
354
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:43:00 -
[16] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:No point in having Hulks if you can't fly them in highsec.
Why does everything have to be for hisec? There are other ships in the game as well that are not able to do their thing in Hisec. Now the Hulk joined them. Doesn't mean that there is no point to them. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mag's wrote:[quote=Kajin Kanjus][quote=Mag's][quote=Kajin Kanjus]
The trouble you have now, is that CCP already buffed Barges and now you can fit a great tank. You just have to use the right ship and modules.
Since you believe this is true, what fit do you believe fits that description? I'll take that fit and compare it to the Hulks that have been destroyed over the last week and see if that holds true.
I'm not looking for advice on a fit here. I'm looking to compare your statement with reality to see if that's an accurate statement.
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Ersahi Kir
Freelance Mining Company
20
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:Ersahi Kir wrote:I don't think I've had a miner lose a mining barge or exhumer since the change. But my miners fly procurers and skiffs.
Just some food for thought. Yeah, I hear ya. I've changed now too. The only thing is you lose even more ore volume given the lower bonuses, even when compared to a hard fitted Hulk. No point in having Hulks if you can't fly them in highsec.
I disagree, when I was in a wormhole corp I would use a hulk. The rocks are fat enough that you get the most out of your bonus mining yield, and your only real defence in a worm hole is diligently paying attention to your d-scan and your wormhole defence intelligence. In that situation if you get caught you're going to die anyway, so fitting a tank is useless, and there's no rats to tank after you kill the initial spawn of sleepers. Fit for yield and go to town.
It's been a while since I've wormhole mined but I remember fitting ECCM mods in my mids, and my orca was fit with sig reduction, sensor boost, and mining cycle time gang links. |
Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 16:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Beckie DeLey wrote:Kajin Kanjus wrote:No point in having Hulks if you can't fly them in highsec. Why does everything have to be for hisec? There are other ships in the game as well that are not able to do their thing in Hisec. Now the Hulk joined them. Doesn't mean that there is no point to them.
Everything isn't about highsec, but why would you use a Hulk in lowsec or nullsec? That's crazy talk. The only time you would do so is when you have a large, well protected mining op going on. Otherwise, it's much better to use a Skiff in those circumstances. So, if you are using a skiff everywhere because Hulks are getting ganked in highsec, I see no point in even having a Hulk in the game. I might be wrong, but I would be willing to bet the vast majority of Hulks are being used in highsec.
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Beckie DeLey
Living From Scraps
354
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:The only time you would do so is when you have a large, well protected mining op going on
Exactly. Hulks are for mining fleets. They maximise yield, so other ships have to cut up the slack for the Hulk's shortcomings. That's not feasible in HiSec, so use some other ship better equipped for the job. Simple, really *shrug*
Quote: I might be wrong, but I would be willing to bet the vast majority of Hulks are being used in highsec.
Probably true. And that's why they need to burn. Show them the error of their ways. So... i started an industry blog at www.derbk.com/eve There i am preparing a guide to all things related to manufacturing. Check it out!
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Dave Stark
1998
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:11:00 -
[21] - Quote
2x cargo expanders no shield harmonising link. no DCU.
also, if there was a full bounty pay out that was like what, 7m isk per pilot? way more than their destroyers cost.
i see nothing wrong here than the pilot's stupidity. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14515
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:Mag's wrote:The trouble you have now, is that CCP already buffed Barges and now you can fit a great tank. You just have to use the right ship and modules. Since you believe this is true, what fit do you believe fits that description? I'll take that fit and compare it to the Hulks that have been destroyed over the last week and see if that holds true. I'm not looking for advice on a fit here. I'm looking to compare your statement with reality to see if that's an accurate statement. I haven't ever flown them, but a quick look got me the following Mack fit. (I'm sure there are better fits)
[Mackinaw, Over 46k EHP Mackinaw] Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Damage Control II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II EM Ward Amplifier II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Ice Harvester II Ice Harvester II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Then there is the Skiff, which happens to be the best tanker, although not the best yield. If someone scans you and finds you easy to gank and ISK viable, you will be ganked.
The point is, there are options and most likely ones better than I just posted. You can't blame CCP for being shot, when you didn't wear the right body armour in a gun fight. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
2701
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kajin Kanjus wrote:cowardly whiners says the guy posting a whine thread in F&I to avoid the ridicule of GD...
Kajin Kanjus wrote:The last time this kind of behavor was happening, I cancelled the subscriptions on my two accounts for a year and half. This fits the cookie cutter template for a whine thread. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Dave Stark
1999
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:16:00 -
[24] - Quote
with all due respect mag's, if you're fitting a mack like that you may as well use a retriever. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14515
|
Posted - 2013.03.15 17:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:with all due respect mag's, if you're fitting a mack like that you may as well use a retriever. Well like I said bud, never flown one never will. I have no clue what the best fit would be. But I'm sure if I had some sort personality change and found mining the best thing since sliced bread, I'd find the best fit and make sure I wasn't worth ganking. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Kajin Kanjus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:2x cargo expanders no shield harmonising link. no DCU.
also, if there was a full bounty pay out that was like what, 7m isk per pilot? way more than their destroyers cost.
i see nothing wrong here than the pilot's stupidity.
Yeah, I saw that too and don't know about the payout for a bounty. I wondered about that myself, but don't have any way to check. Would be interesting. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
671
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:21:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:2x cargo expanders no shield harmonising link. no DCU.
also, if there was a full bounty pay out that was like what, 7m isk per pilot? way more than their destroyers cost.
i see nothing wrong here than the pilot's stupidity. Wow the no DCU is mildly excusable but to not be using a shield harmonizing link is just dumb. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
Dave Stark
2000
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Well like I said bud, never flown one never will. I have no clue what the best fit would be. But I'm sure if I had some sort personality change and found mining the best thing since sliced bread, I'd find the best fit and make sure I wasn't worth ganking. a retriever will mine roughly 25% more with a max yield fit, and will only cost you 30m rather than 200m when it gets popped, also who'd bother popping you if you're next to an equally easy to kill target worth 200m? isk tanking is a viable method of tanking, i do it myself.
Kajin Kanjus wrote:Yeah, I saw that too and don't know about the payout for a bounty. I wondered about that myself, but don't have any way to check. Would be interesting. as far as i understand it, it's 20% of total value upon destruction. which is ~180m looking at that kill, split 24 ways. just over 7m per pilot. Want miners to move from high sec to null sec? Then give them a reason to join player corps, and stop null sec grav sites being worth less isk/hour than high sec asteroid belts. Really isn't difficult. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14515
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:33:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Mag's wrote:Well like I said bud, never flown one never will. I have no clue what the best fit would be. But I'm sure if I had some sort personality change and found mining the best thing since sliced bread, I'd find the best fit and make sure I wasn't worth ganking. a retriever will mine roughly 25% more with a max yield fit, and will only cost you 30m rather than 200m when it gets popped, also who'd bother popping you if you're next to an equally easy to kill target worth 200m? isk tanking is a viable method of tanking, i do it myself. I bow to your better knowledge on this bud. Putting aside the fit I copied off BC, I believe you made my point anyway.
I also give you much respect for having the patients for mining. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Ersahi Kir
Freelance Mining Company
20
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Posted - 2013.03.15 17:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
High sec mining fits:
Skiff Strip Miner 1 Medium Shield Extender II Medium Shield Extender II EM Resistance Amp II Thermal Resistance Amp II Invurnability Field II MLU II MLU II Shield Extender Rig I Shield Extender Rig I Shield Extender Rig I
EHP: 78k If you want to fit a tech II strip miner you need a 1% powergrid implant. You can swap to ice mining without any tank changes. With an orca with level 5 boosts and shield harmonizing gang link2 you're sporting 96k ehp (assuming mining foreman mindlink).
Procurer Strip Miner (1 or 2, doesn't matter) Medium Shield Extender II Thermal Hardener II EM Hardener II Invurnability Field II MLU II MLU II Shield Extender Rig I Shield Extender Rig I Shield Extender Rig I
I think the EHP on this ~58k, and it can be fit for ice minig without any changes. Without the rigs it's ~44k EHP but you cut 35-40% off the hull cost. If you want to isk tank even more efficiently then use the procurer fit except use tech 1 meto 0 mods and no rigs. I can't remember the number but I think it was around 39k EHP, but the ship costs ~10.5-11 mil.
If gankers are hitting your wallet hard you have no one but yourself to blame. It's also worth noting that all these fits are max yield and don't use a Damage Control, if you slap a DC/DCII where appropriate you'll be even beefier. |
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