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Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha
The Scope Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 20:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Suicide ganking in high sec.
Suicide ganking is, and always has been, a predominent issue with industrialist. Ganking for profit is still a method of money making that encourages a subgroup of players to wage open war on mining ops in high sec, while damaging the economy and driving miners away from systems and away from mining.
Ganking an exumer and having an alternate account that loots and salvages the wreck creates an oppertunity to make high sec ganking a profitable and dominant form of exploitation. Eliminating the profit margin, by making illegal combat non profitable would remove the insentive for suicide ganking in high sec. By making it impossible to loot or salvage wrecks in high security space that have been illegally destroyed would limit ganking further into an even smaller subgroup that will perform ganking for no other reason but entertainment.
Performing illegal attacks in high sec space should not have a dollar sign attacted to it.
By fixing this, it would encourage more players to use mining to accrue the isk they need for other profitable ventures, such as exploring and delving into lower security space, and would provide a more secure enviroment for miners to operate under, while enriching the economy further.
You can still get ganked, but they would be doing it, while losing their isk, and gaining nothing in return with the exception of bounties being collected, which is an acceptable form of law enforcement. This, of course, would not apply to low or null sec operations. |
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium Templis Dragonaors
113
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
This is no different than the calls to make all space like nullsec. There are plenty of protections to stop ganks and likewise your own intelligence and forward planning will prevent almost all of them. So let's not make another "Everyone should have to play the game exactly as I do" thread. Arma Purgatorium - For the State, For the Corporation Faction Warfare, PvP, Training
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Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force Caldari State Capturing
195
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 21:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Are you telling me the solution to my problems is to kill miners? I will get right on that. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2103
|
Posted - 2013.03.16 23:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Three things...
- there are barges called the Procurer and Skiff... they can fit tanks that make it very unprofitable and difficult to gank.
- suicide ganking of mining barges is at historic lows now that they have been buffed... and now you want more?
- the victim is usually the one making such a tactic profitable by having too many expensive items on/in his/her ship and/or not taking enough precautions (like fitting a tank or having support nearby).
Also...
Quote:Performing illegal attacks in high sec space should not have a dollar sign attacted to it. You have not presented a reasonable reason why you believe the above statement and why the current system should change... at least, nothing beyond "it is wrong" and the false claim that it "damages the economy." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gank Knight
Nihilism.
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 01:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote:damaging the economy
yeah... no.
I gank miners full time in highsec and I can tell you that profit margins are very low. I basically rely on Hulk salvage to subsidize all of my Retriever kills. Fortunately threads like this make the practice worthwhile. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 10:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
suicide ganking miners boost economy, every kill means that you need to build 2 more ships and more modules and sell those. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2242
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 12:02:00 -
[7] - Quote
Asteroids have feelings too
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Jay Kreutzer
High Life Industries Fade 2 Black
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 14:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
I find it hilariously ironic that someone named after simo-hayha is complaining about 'unfair' tactics. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
251
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 15:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
It's not as profitable as it used to be.
Right now suicide ganking... For the people that do it, is nothing more than... Fun.
Spooky huh? They don't care much for the losses. We miss you Saede. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14526
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 16:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha wrote:Performing illegal attacks in high sec space should not have a dollar sign attacted to it. Of course it should, but that doesn't mean it has to. CCP give you options in the game. If you decide to use an option that makes you worth ganking, then you must accept the chance of being ganked.
But even then, that still will not exclude you from the chance of being ganked. It simply reduces it. You accept being ganked whenever you undock. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
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Fireflyb1
Walden 2.0
38
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 19:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:It's not as profitable as it used to be.
Right now suicide ganking... For the people that do it, is nothing more than... Fun.
Spooky huh? They don't care much for the losses.
No one suicide ganks for the profit.. everyone who suicide ganks does it for the same reason that people do corp theft/scams, "funny wars", and all the other negatively associated acts that the real world would frown upon (and whose rules do not appear to apply in the world of Eve)...
This game's mechanics seem to be configured in just the right way for normal people from the real world to step into their scum-slicked shoes and wreak whatever kind of mayhem or idiocy they may desire... it's really quite amazing when you think about it.
The kind of perverse satisfaction that people get from suicide ganking or corp theft/piracy (in addition to the same satisfaction others get from reading about it) is almost an opposite of mainstream society, where movies depict these kind of characters as the "bad" person... here, they're on the same playing field as everyone else. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
251
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 20:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
I do however still feel that ship insurance should be void if the ship is destroyed by concord. We miss you Saede. |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
176
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 20:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
There's no such thing as suicide ganking.
It's a silly fairy story told to baby bears by their carebear parents. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2224
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 20:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
There is no empirical evidence that suicide ganking "damages" the market, and there never has been.
There is, however, a wealth of empirical evidence that terrible threads like these decrease my faith in humanity. Mane 614
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14528
|
Posted - 2013.03.17 21:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fireflyb1 wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:It's not as profitable as it used to be.
Right now suicide ganking... For the people that do it, is nothing more than... Fun.
Spooky huh? They don't care much for the losses. No one suicide ganks for the profit.. everyone who suicide ganks does it for the same reason that people do corp theft/scams, "funny wars", and all the other negatively associated acts that the real world would frown upon (and whose rules do not appear to apply in the world of Eve)... This game's mechanics seem to be configured in just the right way for normal people from the real world to step into their scum-slicked shoes and wreak whatever kind of mayhem or idiocy they may desire... it's really quite amazing when you think about it. The kind of perverse satisfaction that people get from suicide ganking or corp theft/piracy (in addition to the same satisfaction others get from reading about it) is almost an opposite of mainstream society, where movies depict these kind of characters as the "bad" person... here, they're on the same playing field as everyone else. To say no one suicide ganks for profit, is disingenuous to say the least. Sure some do it for lolz, but not 'everyone'.
Also what do morals have to do with anything? It's a game with rules and people play by those rules. Your argument is much like saying people shooting others in CoD or BF3 is awful and makes them perverse. Or that a good chess player taking another persons queen is just wrong, as the other player may get upset.
Eve never tries or advertises itself as anything but a place where scamming , theft and loss must be expected and even promoted. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
Gank Knight
Nihilism.
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 00:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:I do however still feel that ship insurance should be void if the ship is destroyed by concord.
It is. |
Fireflyb1
Walden 2.0
38
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 00:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Fireflyb1 wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:It's not as profitable as it used to be.
Right now suicide ganking... For the people that do it, is nothing more than... Fun.
Spooky huh? They don't care much for the losses. No one suicide ganks for the profit.. everyone who suicide ganks does it for the same reason that people do corp theft/scams, "funny wars", and all the other negatively associated acts that the real world would frown upon (and whose rules do not appear to apply in the world of Eve)... This game's mechanics seem to be configured in just the right way for normal people from the real world to step into their scum-slicked shoes and wreak whatever kind of mayhem or idiocy they may desire... it's really quite amazing when you think about it. The kind of perverse satisfaction that people get from suicide ganking or corp theft/piracy (in addition to the same satisfaction others get from reading about it) is almost an opposite of mainstream society, where movies depict these kind of characters as the "bad" person... here, they're on the same playing field as everyone else. To say no one suicide ganks for profit, is disingenuous to say the least. Sure some do it for lolz, but not ' everyone'. Also what do morals have to do with anything? It's a game with rules and people play by those rules. Your argument is much like saying people shooting others in CoD or BF3, is awful and makes them perverse. Or that a good chess player taking another persons queen is just wrong, as the other player may get upset. Eve never tries or advertises itself as anything but a place where scamming, theft and loss must be expected and even promoted.
Sorry, I meant to say that the BASE cause for suicide ganking was in ignorance of morals, and some do it for profit...
and the rest of your post was confirming mine... |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
14532
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 00:55:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fireflyb1 wrote:Mag's wrote:Fireflyb1 wrote:
No one suicide ganks for the profit.. everyone who suicide ganks does it for the same reason that people do corp theft/scams, "funny wars", and all the other negatively associated acts that the real world would frown upon (and whose rules do not appear to apply in the world of Eve)...
This game's mechanics seem to be configured in just the right way for normal people from the real world to step into their scum-slicked shoes and wreak whatever kind of mayhem or idiocy they may desire... it's really quite amazing when you think about it.
The kind of perverse satisfaction that people get from suicide ganking or corp theft/piracy (in addition to the same satisfaction others get from reading about it) is almost an opposite of mainstream society, where movies depict these kind of characters as the "bad" person... here, they're on the same playing field as everyone else.
To say no one suicide ganks for profit, is disingenuous to say the least. Sure some do it for lolz, but not ' everyone'. Also what do morals have to do with anything? It's a game with rules and people play by those rules. Your argument is much like saying people shooting others in CoD or BF3, is awful and makes them perverse. Or that a good chess player taking another persons queen is just wrong, as the other player may get upset. Eve never tries or advertises itself as anything but a place where scamming, theft and loss must be expected and even promoted. Sorry, I meant to say that the BASE cause for suicide ganking was in ignorance of morals, and some do it for profit... and the rest of your post was confirming mine... Actually you said no one, but if you know you were wrong then that's fine. My post merely confirmed that. Malcanis for CSM 8. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless. |
IbanezLaney
the church of awesome Caldari State Capturing
272
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 02:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha wrote:Suicide ganking in high sec.
Suicide ganking is, and always has been, a predominent issue with industrialist. Ganking for profit is still a method of money making that encourages a subgroup of players to wage open war on mining ops in high sec, while damaging the economy and driving miners away from systems and away from mining.
Ganking an exumer and having an alternate account that loots and salvages the wreck creates an oppertunity to make high sec ganking a profitable and dominant form of exploitation. Eliminating the profit margin, by making illegal combat non profitable would remove the insentive for suicide ganking in high sec. By making it impossible to loot or salvage wrecks in high security space that have been illegally destroyed would limit ganking further into an even smaller subgroup that will perform ganking for no other reason but entertainment.
Performing illegal attacks in high sec space should not have a dollar sign attacted to it.
By fixing this, it would encourage more players to use mining to accrue the isk they need for other profitable ventures, such as exploring and delving into lower security space, and would provide a more secure enviroment for miners to operate under, while enriching the economy further.
You can still get ganked, but they would be doing it, while losing their isk, and gaining nothing in return with the exception of bounties being collected, which is an acceptable form of law enforcement. This, of course, would not apply to low or null sec operations.
Seriously dude - low sec is where you should mine. It's way safer.
I mine in Hykanima all the time. We have orca boosts and all - bring your hulk and join the mining fun. Never had a problem mining in Hykanima. TBH - I have never lost even one mining barge there so far.
Just convo me when you get there and I'll happily come help. Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1101
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 10:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha wrote:Suicide ganking in high sec.
Suicide ganking is, and always has been, a predominent issue with industrialist. Ganking for profit is still a method of money making that encourages a subgroup of players to wage open war on mining ops in high sec, while damaging the economy and driving miners away from systems and away from mining.
Ganking an exumer and having an alternate account that loots and salvages the wreck creates an oppertunity to make high sec ganking a profitable and dominant form of exploitation. Eliminating the profit margin, by making illegal combat non profitable would remove the insentive for suicide ganking in high sec. By making it impossible to loot or salvage wrecks in high security space that have been illegally destroyed would limit ganking further into an even smaller subgroup that will perform ganking for no other reason but entertainment.
Performing illegal attacks in high sec space should not have a dollar sign attacted to it.
By fixing this, it would encourage more players to use mining to accrue the isk they need for other profitable ventures, such as exploring and delving into lower security space, and would provide a more secure enviroment for miners to operate under, while enriching the economy further.
You can still get ganked, but they would be doing it, while losing their isk, and gaining nothing in return with the exception of bounties being collected, which is an acceptable form of law enforcement. This, of course, would not apply to low or null sec operations.
a) why shouldn't miners and industrialists have to deal with other players wanting to gank them? The miners and industrialists have a direct effect on prices and availability of everything I buy and use, why should I not be able to have an effect on them?
b) Why shouldn't ganking have the potential to be profitable?
c) Why shouldn't there be incentive for suicide ganking in highsec? This is a PVP game about shooting spaceships, so it makes no sense to remove incentives to shoot spaceships. Even in highsec. Highsec is not meant to be a perfect little carebear paradise, never was. Deal with it.
d) Why do we need to encourage more players to mine? Look at any belt or ice field in highsec and you'll find dozens of barges mining away. There are plenty of miners.
e) Claiming that making it easier for miners to make isk without threat would lead to an increased number of them venturing into low and null is bullshit. The whole "well I'd come to low/null and you could fight me if only my highsec carebearing was easier and more profitable!" line is a flat out lie. Bears are bears not because they can't afford to pvp in low/null, they're bears because they don't want to PVP at all. They want to watch the little number in their wallet increase, maybe buy something shiny to look at in the station. They do not want to actually experience the rest of EVE, otherwise they would have already. I'm tired of this lie.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1923
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 11:38:00 -
[21] - Quote
Thieving and sabotage are RL threats that effect every business. Money is almost always the motivating factor.
In EvE.... you have thieving and sabotage in the form of suicide ganking... and ISK is still a motivating factor...
Why should it be different? |
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
510
|
Posted - 2013.03.18 21:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:I do however still feel that ship insurance should be void if the ship is destroyed by concord. umm, Ships destroyed by concord do not payout insurance. This was changed some time ago, around the time when the T3 battlecruisers were added.
sucide ganking was nerfed as the battleships became to expensive to use without getting insurance for them. This nerf was softened with the addition of T3 battlecruisers that could do battleship damage at a fraction of the cost.
EVE is a hostile place. There is crime in new eden just as there is in the real world. CONCORD are the police. when someone unjustly kills a miner in high sec the police(CONCORD)respond. But just as in the real world this response takes time. The further you are from the police station the longer the response takes. hense the slower response as security level drops.
Much like a criminal in the real world can shoot you and take your wallet. The police will respond. the criminal will usually get caught, But they usually will get away with the loot, i.e. your wallet. Some criminals are smart and make a living off crime.
In New Eden criminals are punished. Police respond to criminal acts, repeat offenders suffer from reduced security status which will eventually lock them out of high sec.
Just like in the real world there are criminals in New Eden that make their living off criminal activities, and just like the real world criminals can get away with their crimes by hiding in area's the police will not pursue them. A criminal in the U.S.A. flee's to Mexico, while a criminal in New Eden flee's to low sec. It would be cool to see a system in EVE that actually punishes criminals who are actually caught. Like criminals going to prison in the real world.
Perhaps when a criminal gets -10.0 security standings CONCORD will try to POD them, and if successful the character would be unavailable for play for a designated jail time(5-10 days) depending on their degree of criminal activity. Perhaps even paying an optional fine to avoid jail time or character lock out, (just that specific character, not the account). Have criminal activities actually have a chance of long lasting punishment.
To give something to the players who choose to play as criminals perhaps add a criminal record to the character sheets. A way to show how bad you are beyond a -10.0 sec status. Each time they do time or pay a fine it will show as time served or fines paid for crimes against the state. If they get away from CONCORD they can live to fight another day, but if they get caught the hammer comes down. Dedicated criminals will eventually have a rap sheet displaying their convictions like a trophy rather than just a -10.0 sec status.
This would add an element of risk to criminal actives. Make that -10.0 security standing actually give the criminal character something to fear. Serving jail time or paying the fine would reset that character to -4.0 security. So they can start their crime spree over again without a huge sec status grind or rolling a new character. After serving their punishment they are now no longer hunted and are free citizens. Until their sec status drops again. Each time they are caught could result in a longer jail sentence (days the character is locked from play) Such content could increase the thrill of playing a criminal character, you now have something to risk/fear. Such content is really not needed in a video game. But it could be cool and add a lot of depth if done right. Such a change would be the first of its type in an MMO, |
Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
143
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 20:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
CONCORD does not provide a defense. It provides consequences.
If you are unwilling to tank yourself/ pay attention/have alts in place to protect yourself from ganks, you deserve it and all the ******** endless threads about "waaaah suicide ganking should be banned waaah" will not change that. |
Sean Parisi
Fugutive Task Force Caldari State Capturing
215
|
Posted - 2013.03.19 22:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha wrote:Suicide ganking in high sec.
Suicide ganking is, and always has been, a predominent issue with industrialist. Ganking for profit is still a method of money making that encourages a subgroup of players to wage open war on mining ops in high sec, while damaging the economy and driving miners away from systems and away from mining.
Ganking an exumer and having an alternate account that loots and salvages the wreck creates an oppertunity to make high sec ganking a profitable and dominant form of exploitation. Eliminating the profit margin, by making illegal combat non profitable would remove the insentive for suicide ganking in high sec. By making it impossible to loot or salvage wrecks in high security space that have been illegally destroyed would limit ganking further into an even smaller subgroup that will perform ganking for no other reason but entertainment.
Performing illegal attacks in high sec space should not have a dollar sign attacted to it.
By fixing this, it would encourage more players to use mining to accrue the isk they need for other profitable ventures, such as exploring and delving into lower security space, and would provide a more secure enviroment for miners to operate under, while enriching the economy further.
You can still get ganked, but they would be doing it, while losing their isk, and gaining nothing in return with the exception of bounties being collected, which is an acceptable form of law enforcement. This, of course, would not apply to low or null sec operations. Seriously dude - low sec is where you should mine. It's way safer. I mine in Hykanima all the time. We have orca boosts and all - bring your hulk and join the mining fun. Never had a problem mining in Hykanima. TBH - I have never lost even one mining barge there so far. Just convo me when you get there and I'll happily come help. Edit: How can you have illegal combat in a game about blowing up internet spaceships? Isn't that the point of eve?
Best mining party ever. |
Apelacja
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.03.29 10:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
as long as u need 8 ships to gank a freighter there is smthing wrong....in the game when everyone use as many accounts as he need.
About suicide ganking -> all third programs used to autotargetting/attacking should be chased and ppl using them should be baned so u will need at least 3-4 ppl to gank not 1 with ******* bots....or however i can call that. |
OldWolf69
IR0N. SpaceMonkey's Alliance
23
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 10:52:00 -
[26] - Quote
Diz is the single game in wich the Chicken is allowed to play the Lion. Well. Maybe not the Lion. But for shure, the Hyena. Just a combination of a smart salesman and a lot of pervers ppl, that's EvE. But do we like it? For shure, yeah, we do. And if you dont rly understand that motivations are rarely important, in this game, and actions or consequences of actions are the single wich count...rly, you should not play it. Stop alt-tabbing, botting, pay attention, and no unexpected harm will be done to you. But sometimes people should expect harm. Still they don't. Because "this won't happen exactly to them". Bad luck is a pervers God, isn't it? |
Ile Disco
Airtight Investment Racketeers
12
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 12:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
He's running for the CSM aswell, the OP is copy and pasted from his CSM thread
Please don't vote for this muppet |
Amyclas Amatin
The Phantom Regiment THE ROYAL NAVY
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Is eve supposed to be a brutally competitive pvp game with complex economics and industrial elements in it?
Or is eve supposed a game that caters to all sorts of players who want to play at all sorts of difficulty levels?
If we take the cater-to-everyone approach, the brutally competitive pvp aspect makes no sense anymore. We all build up our resources in near-absolute safety, and then go shoot each other for sport. Suicide ganking crusades and griefing campaigns are the players' response to keep all areas of he game competitive. The post that got me banned from Eve-Uni: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=210049&find=unread |
Zappity
Kurved Space
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Amused by the thread but confused by the OP indicating that ganking highsec miners ruins the economy. OP, do you think that more minerals equals a better economy? Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Jubal Longstreet
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 13:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Amused by the thread but confused by the OP indicating that ganking highsec miners ruins the economy. OP, do you think that more minerals equals a better economy?
Depending on what you take the economy of eve to be (ISK or... Fun... or Tears) he is right. If the economy is ISK then you could argue for the Broken Window - Kid (here after will be called [Pirate]) breaks window (here after will be called [Venture]), the owner of the window (here after will be called [Bear]) has to buy a new [Venture], and this stimulates the economy...
Unfortunately it is a fallacy as the economy is down one [Venture]. The economy would have been 'better' stimulated by the [Bear] getting a chance to save his isks/tears and buy his long dreamed of new suit (here after will be called [Hulk]). In that scenario, the world of isk would have had a 'higher' standard of 'living' because it would have still had a functional [Venture] and a new shiny [Hulk].
But since it's 1 - interenest space ships, and 2 - many of those ships are fueled by [Bear] tears, shooting the Venture does increase the standard of living, for some of the citizens of new eden. |
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