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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Rosewalker
Khumaak Flying Circus
12
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Posted - 2013.03.19 13:52:00 -
[121] - Quote
Belinik wrote:I too hope to hear CCPs stance on ISBOXER (I am looking to get it myself), but on the contrary i believe it should not be removed, because the player is present when all actions are being given. And all actions are human. Botting is the use of software applications that run automated tasks over the internet. ISBOXER does not automate tasks, and certainly does not hack the client. It simply broadcasts keystrokes and mouse, but if left alone the program itself CANNOT play the game, it simply makes multiboxing easier.
I am also interested to know if an application that uses code injection to directly impact events inside the Eve client is allowed since in the past code injection was considered client modification. The last I heard the penalty for that offense was a permanent ban for all accounts. The Nosy Gamer - Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength - Eric Hoffer |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
793
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Posted - 2013.03.19 14:00:00 -
[122] - Quote
A few things on this whole matter:
- there's still a lot of work to be done in trading hubs like Jita, I know some of them make macros with different timings but I would very much agree to a "you're not fooling us" sort of approach, where you give a temp ban to people whom you clearly suspect (but can't 100% prove) to be using macros.
- I would like to see some form of "reward" (not to betaken too literally) for people who reported a bot which actually got banhammered. I know that it's kinda sensitive in the way of it being between CCP and the one being banned but I'm sure that a system where you get a delayed "successfully banned upon your report" stat would be fine, make it a quarterly thing so you can't really pin it on one bot (unless you only reported one of course). Give it some incentive by creating some silly ingame item for it which you'll get for every 5 successful reports, non-trade able. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2269
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Posted - 2013.03.19 14:34:00 -
[123] - Quote
Prospector Yurskeld wrote:I can't really read or express my thoughts in complete sentences but I like posting anyway
If they came to system via a stargate they would remain in local registry and appear in local chat once logged back. Station could work like gates and add docked and on-grid pilots to local.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Seranova Farreach
Friendship is Missles
437
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Posted - 2013.03.19 14:41:00 -
[124] - Quote
i would like to see the flattened star map with visual representations of where and amount of botters were banned, just because im curious.
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Deranged FleX
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
5
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Posted - 2013.03.19 14:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
What is your plan, CCP, on combating the FALSE positives you have on RMT transactions? Are you going to change you policies on how you do your investigations so you stop taking isk (banning I guess now) from innocent people. Especially the ones who buy characters from the bazaar who did the RMT transaction before being sold?
This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. What is your new plan to combat false positive and rectify your ineffectiveness to get it right the first time? |
virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine The Unforgiven Alliance
15
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Posted - 2013.03.19 14:55:00 -
[126] - Quote
Deranged FleX wrote: This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly.
At some point didn't you think about stopping buying negative isk accounts? Once burnt twice shy and all that?
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
22
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:03:00 -
[127] - Quote
Olaf4862 wrote:Just a thought but banning just the account for 30 days is not going to hurt a botter with multiple accounts. Might I suggest a ban on the IP used also for 24 hrs to make the point clear that botting is not acceptable. This will do more then just effect their botted account but any other account coming from that IP. Yes I understand that it might adversely effect players in the same household who are not botting but an IP block might help to put on the added per pressure that its not OK to bot.
As a professional network engineer I can attest that this will absolutely not work. At all.
It is silly easy to change your IP address on any residential connection at will by modifying your DHCP client ID or MAC address. Heck, most residential grade connections change IPs rather frequently on their own anyway.
This would also open the door for all kinds of nasty tricks with IP spoofing and replay attacks against other players. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
648
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:14:00 -
[128] - Quote
Deranged FleX wrote:What is your plan, CCP, on combating the FALSE positives you have on RMT transactions? Are you going to change you policies on how you do your investigations so you stop taking isk (banning I guess now) from innocent people. Especially the ones who buy characters from the bazaar who did the RMT transaction before being sold?
This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. What is your new plan to combat false positive and rectify your ineffectiveness to get it right the first time?
Based on the lack of responsiveness it seems to be same as the old plan: Ignore it until or unless called out as loudly as possible in public, perhaps not even then.
"We don't comment on individual cases" is understandable and expected but it does not or at least should not preclude them from commenting in a general sense. "We investigate all claims" is all well and good, except for the evidence to the contrary, and the willingness to leave people in the dark in the meantime. Mynnna for CSM8 |
Deranged FleX
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
5
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:16:00 -
[129] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Deranged FleX wrote: This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. At some point didn't you think about stopping buying negative isk accounts? Once burnt twice shy and all that?
It wasn't negative until a month later after I purchased it. Had a positive wallet. |
Deranged FleX
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
5
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:23:00 -
[130] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Deranged FleX wrote:What is your plan, CCP, on combating the FALSE positives you have on RMT transactions? Are you going to change you policies on how you do your investigations so you stop taking isk (banning I guess now) from innocent people. Especially the ones who buy characters from the bazaar who did the RMT transaction before being sold?
This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. What is your new plan to combat false positive and rectify your ineffectiveness to get it right the first time? Based on the lack of responsiveness it seems to be same as the old plan: Ignore it until or unless called out as loudly as possible in public, perhaps not even then. "We don't comment on individual cases" is understandable and expected but it does not or at least should not preclude them from commenting in a general sense. "We investigate all claims" is all well and good, except for the evidence to the contrary, and the willingness to leave people in the dark in the meantime.
Thanks and I believe you are right. I left out information on petitions that were not answered (near a month) or closed as I believe I can't talk about it here. It's one thing to take someone's isk and another to ban especially when they have multiple false positives on RMT OR people are buying legal toons the prescribed way and getting hit with the RMT hammer. Their process must not be reading logs or whatever they have or they would see a character transfer took place.
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Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1706
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:33:00 -
[131] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Deranged FleX wrote: This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. At some point didn't you think about stopping buying negative isk accounts? Once burnt twice shy and all that? Oh most likely that's not what happened. What happened is he did RMT then tried to hide it with various transactions and character transfers. When CCP caught him he came here to the forums to whine about it and proclaim his innocence. Well, as CCP Sreegs was fond of saying: People who do bad things have been known to lie. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Liafcipe9000
Smeghead Empire
1528
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:44:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP Stillman wrote:We hope to see you all at Fanfest!
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Ravcharas
grey council Nulli Secunda
204
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Posted - 2013.03.19 15:57:00 -
[133] - Quote
Shine On You Crazy Darius |
Ereilian
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:13:00 -
[134] - Quote
Impressive to see you catching the low end users, and those who are either dabbling or just bad at botting. Still no real action against the alliances that sponsor and run on RMT and botting, still no big name bans against those who earn a living from it in the real world.
Just like the "War on Drugs" in the RL, pointless useless waste of money just to catch low end users. |
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CCP Peligro
C C P C C P Alliance
17
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Posted - 2013.03.19 16:21:00 -
[135] - Quote
Marxius Imate wrote:I've always been curious about how the RMT/Negative wallet works. If someone sells something to a RMTer, either by accident or supposed collusion (lol eve money laundering), how far do you trace the funds? For example:
An alt Scumbag 1 (SB1): RMTs say 1 Billion The main Scumbag 2 (SB2): Sells SB1 an item worth ~1 Billion on market. SB1: Then trades that item to a another alt/player (SB3) SB3: Sells that item to a random buyer in Jita at nearly the same price (nominal loss on "high ticket" items) SB3: Gives money to SB2 SB2: Now has the RMTed money and a bit of occurs. SB1: Gets banned/negative walleted, but who cares, he was an alt.
Sorry if that's complicated, I just absolutely hope the entire chain is brought down, RMTer is literally the death of economies in games.
We can and will trace illegally obtained ISK and/or assets as far as is necessary. I'm not going to put a disposable alt billions of ISK into the red; I will find your main.
In addition to this, punishment in the form of bans for RMT is not limited to the offending account, we'll take action against all accounts found to belong to the offender. CCP Peligro - Team Security |
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virm pasuul
Mine 'N' Refine The Unforgiven Alliance
15
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Posted - 2013.03.19 17:36:00 -
[136] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: Oh most likely that's not what happened. What happened is he did RMT then tried to hide it with various transactions and character transfers. When CCP caught him he came here to the forums to whine about it and proclaim his innocence. Well, as CCP Sreegs was fond of saying: People who do bad things have been known to lie.
Its my experience of online gaming that a significant portion of exploiters and cheaters like to spread fear uncertainty and doubt about the methods that companies use to defeat them. Exploiters like to introduce doubt within the larger player base that the company is acting fairly or transparently in order to undermine player confidence in the system. If this player confidence in the company's good faith can be undermined sufficiently then the player base starts calling the company out. |
Deranged FleX
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
5
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:09:00 -
[137] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Vincent Athena wrote: Oh most likely that's not what happened. What happened is he did RMT then tried to hide it with various transactions and character transfers. When CCP caught him he came here to the forums to whine about it and proclaim his innocence. Well, as CCP Sreegs was fond of saying: People who do bad things have been known to lie.
Its my experience of online gaming that a significant portion of exploiters and cheaters like to spread fear uncertainty and doubt about the methods that companies use to defeat them. Exploiters like to introduce doubt within the larger player base that the company is acting fairly or transparently in order to undermine player confidence in the system. If this player confidence in the company's good faith can be undermined sufficiently then the player base starts calling the company out.
That was not my intention nor is my concern based upon your "feelings". My concern is what is the security team doing to insure less or no false positives on the character bazaar. Thanks to the help of CCP after my post, I know it wasn't an issue with the security team. My concern here was related to their DevBlog. I don't think CCP acts unfair but I do know that sometimes there are false positives. There is a petition system to correct it, but it is a slow moving cog of guilty until logs prove you're innocent.
I am here as a paying customer asking a question. My question was partially answered with an EveMail with CCP Peligro about my specific concerns. I am not happy waiting a month now and probably longer, but at least I have some answers on what took place. I am content to know this will be cleared up. |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.03.19 18:57:00 -
[138] - Quote
So after a few days of people bitching about the ninja editing, GM Lelouch edited the 3 year old post again and wrote the following. He's basically saying the same as GM Nythanos is telling me via petition. That they can't say if a specific software is allowed or not and you should "know the rules".
My question is the same as I made in the petition. If CCP can't determine if a third party app is ok or not, how are we, the players, supposed to know? GM Nythanos told me that if I have doubts, then don't use the third party application in question.
But we already had a Dev stating that they aren't banning people for using the Teamspeak overlay because ... it's silly. So clearly the literal interpretation of the rules is not the one CCP is using yet they refuse to specify anything.
I highlighted the relevant parts.
GM Lelouch wrote: Edited by: GM Lelouch on 18/02/2013 08:29:22 Addendum by GM Lelouch: This post was originally written almost three years ago and as software/hardware evolves, so must our stance on what goes within our game. It has become increasingly difficult for us to track the capabilities of various pieces of software over the years as their number, as well as the features they offer, increase greatly in number.
In other words, it is unfortunately impractical for us to evaluate whether specific pieces of software can be used without breaking EVE's EULA/ToS. This post should not be taken as endorsement for utilizing specific pieces of software/hardware with EVE, but as a guideline to what is acceptable.
Our general stance towards the concept of multiboxing has not changed but we cannot guarantee that the EULA is being upheld should you use any of the software/hardware mentioned by name in this post, nor will we at EVE customer support be able to officially endorse or sanction specific third party multiboxing programs.
Players wishing to multibox are responsible for familiarizing themselves with our EULA and Terms of Service, the following clauses in particular are of much relevance to this topic:
EULA: 6. CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.
ToS: 21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game.
The old, out of date, post can be seen below as it originally appeared:
"Hello there,
To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.
Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).
An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!
Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.
I hope this clears up this matter."
Source: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274
This is not rocket science. Regarding TS we've got confirmation, for now, that the overlay is ok. Regarding ISBoxer, the Devs say nothing has changed in their policy but the GMs are ninja editing 3 year old rulings and then saying they can't guarantee you're respecting the EULA if you use ISBoxer. This is a policy change!
CCP, please, this is not complicated. Will we get banned for using ISBoxer for simple multiboxing? Not talking about bots. Not talking about any kind of automation. Just the normal mouse and keyboard mirroring through multiple clients. This is a simple answer.
You can either detect the people using bots with ISBoxer or you can't, meaning people not using bots will get false positives. In which case, you should just rule the thing out. End of story. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1085
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Posted - 2013.03.19 19:09:00 -
[139] - Quote
It may be the case that new players do not realize how seriously CCP take botting offences, or indeed what botting is.
I had never heard of the term 'botting' when I started to play Eve. For some time I thought it meant killing NPC ships.
Perhaps when folk are doing the basic Eve tutorials, they should be made aware that RMT and botting (with some examples of what constitutes botting) is bad for the game and that it could lead to them being perma-banned.
This is not a signature. |
Archibald Thistlewaite III
75
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Posted - 2013.03.19 20:07:00 -
[140] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:
CCP, please, this is not complicated. Will we get banned for using ISBoxer for simple multiboxing?
It is a complicated matter because CCP has no control over ISBoxer. Today that software might be fine and not result in you breaking the EULA.
Tomorrow the company that makes it might make some changes that means using it does break the EULA. |
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Ahri Ohto
Azure Raven Inc.
1
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Posted - 2013.03.19 20:11:00 -
[141] - Quote
Please go to the Lari solar system for a day... plenty of bots there. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
448
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Posted - 2013.03.19 20:28:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote: We can and will trace illegally obtained ISK and/or assets as far as is necessary. I'm not going to put a disposable alt billions of ISK into the red; I will find your main.
Hallejuja, our prayers has been heard.
He is Judge Peligro. CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP (aka Judge) Peligro: I will find you main.
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Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
96
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Posted - 2013.03.19 20:33:00 -
[143] - Quote
Rosewalker wrote:
-/-
For those interested in history, Kromtor was the player who used a crazy-cool set-up using wooden dowels and tape, among other things, to multi-box with until CCP gave Synergy the thumbs up.
What??? CCP had to give Synergy the thumbs up? So it's in the firing line too then? Synergy - the one based on QSynergy? It's nothing more than a KVM - one that auto swaps screen focus based upon if you've bashed the mouse off screen onto another screen - and operates at the OS level.. Doesn't it?
From another thread that has me freaking out a bit. . . https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2763532#post2763532 Mag's calmed that down a bit (Thanks) - but then I read this. . .
I use Synergy - have done for ages. . I'm thinking I'm need to cut my boosters loose till I know what I can and can't do.
KK |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
95
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Posted - 2013.03.19 21:01:00 -
[144] - Quote
I think people need to get a grip a little.
CCP knows people are using Synergy and ISBoxer. They have known people have been using them for a long long time and they have not had a problem with it.
CCP is not an emotionless evil Caldari State corporation. They are not going to just suddenly start banning people out of the blue for using software that they have been OK with for a long time.
Can we just take off the tinfoil hats a bit here and assume CCP is a rational level-headed company and has no intention of just screwing people over for the lewls?
I am using ISBoxer to multibox. I will continue to use ISBoxer to multibox until CCP tells me otherwise. I do not think CCP is hiding behind a bush waiting to jump out and say "boo". I assume that as a rational corporation they would give us some advance warning if they were to suddenly have an issue with ISBoxer.
CPP cannot just blanket white list 3rd party software that they have no control over, which is why they have stated things the way they have.
Anyway, my two cents. |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
95
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Posted - 2013.03.19 21:04:00 -
[145] - Quote
Ahri Ohto wrote:Please go to the Lari solar system for a day... plenty of bots there.
Why do you think they are bots? Have you ruled out the possibility of multiboxing? |
Stray Bullets
Perkone Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.03.20 00:07:00 -
[146] - Quote
Jason Xado wrote:...
Can we just take off the tinfoil hats a bit here and assume CCP is a rational level-headed company and has no intention of just screwing people over for the lewls?
...
CCP cannot just blanket white list 3rd party software that they have no control over, which is why they have stated things the way they have.
Rational? That's the first word that pops up in your head when you think of CCP? First they ninja edit the post that says it's cool, very similar to the one on this thread saying that they're not going to ban people who use TS.
Then, when people start asking if anything has changed, they say nothing changed. Suddenly GMs say that ISBoxer is grey area stuff and use at your own risk. This is a real and obvious change in policy.
There's multiple uses for the same software and I find it funny that one is simply written off without publicly saying so and the other is "silly" to think they'll ban you for it.
Changes in policy that lead to bans should be announced somewhere visible.
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Andy Landen
Air Red Alliance
91
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Posted - 2013.03.20 00:13:00 -
[147] - Quote
Strike 1, 30 day ban. Account is not renewed. No 2nd strike! Mission success. You guys are amazing!
For the afk cloaky bots who camp systems 23/7 without interaction/effort or risk, your mission is a total failure. I guess it depends on whether the player is gaining ISK or not. Not pulling ISK for RMT? Then not CCP's interest/concern. Just an observation. See my thread on addressing cloaky cyno bots for more discussion: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=212830 |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
403
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Posted - 2013.03.20 02:24:00 -
[148] - Quote
So basically the way it works is that if I can provide proof of human capability, then use software to duplicate that, it is probably ok?
IE how isoboxer got shown after the genius guy with the hot glue and sticks.
And that anything which plays with EVE files while the client is running is a banning offense?
IE every bot since ever or more particuarly the usage of python injection to find the wh local list. |
Jason Xado
Xado Industries
95
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Posted - 2013.03.20 02:54:00 -
[149] - Quote
Stray Bullets wrote:Jason Xado wrote:...
Can we just take off the tinfoil hats a bit here and assume CCP is a rational level-headed company and has no intention of just screwing people over for the lewls?
...
CCP cannot just blanket white list 3rd party software that they have no control over, which is why they have stated things the way they have. Rational? That's the first word that pops up in your head when you think of CCP? First they ninja edit the post that says it's cool, very similar to the one on this thread saying that they're not going to ban people who use TS. Then, when people start asking if anything has changed, they say nothing changed. Suddenly GMs say that ISBoxer is grey area stuff and use at your own risk. This is a real and obvious change in policy. There's multiple uses for the same software and I find it funny that one is simply written off without publicly saying so and the other is "silly" to think they'll ban you for it. Changes in policy that lead to bans should be announced somewhere visible.
Yes CCP is rational.
They updated the post to make it clear they do not specifiaclly white list any 3rd party software as they cannot possibly do that as they do not control the 3rd party software. As they have stated their policy toward ISBoxer has not changed. They will not ban you for using it to broadcast commands to multiple clients. Someday if the circumstances or policies change they may need to disallow the use of ISBoxer. As a rational company they will let people know in advance as many of their customers use the software.
I have been using ISBoxer to multibox for the last several months. I am aware I have been reported as a "bot" on many occasion and I have not heard a peep from CCP, because their current policy does not disallow the use of ISBoxer. I am using ISBoxer as we speak and not a peep from CCP because they are OK with people using ISBoxer.
I have not heard of a single case of someone being banned for using ISBoxer.
Let's just all get back to playing and enjoying the game and stop getting all conspiracy theory on a good and rational company that has provided us a great game and endless hours of entertainment.
My two cents anyway. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
349
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Posted - 2013.03.20 02:54:00 -
[150] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:So basically the way it works is that if I can provide proof of human capability, then use software to duplicate that, it is probably ok?
IE how isoboxer got shown after the genius guy with the hot glue and sticks.
And that anything which plays with EVE files while the client is running is a banning offense?
IE every bot since ever or more particuarly the usage of python injection to find the wh local list.
What if they told you "If you want to multi box safely, do the hot glue and stick trick". |
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