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Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
759
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Posted - 2013.03.26 17:34:00 -
[61] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote: I can only reiterate that there is absolutely nothing dishonorable about being smart.
Where on the honor-scale does prostrating one's self to the Federal Senate on their knees, hat in hand, begging for access to their own home planet count?
While some of you might see this as just the request for humanitarian assistance and an attempt to build trust, you should pay careful attention to whom is asking whom for permission and how that effects the balance politically.
A request is an abdication of authority and power. A request is granted by those in control to those not in control.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
6
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Posted - 2013.03.26 17:37:00 -
[62] - Quote
I'm not even sure where to begin, Ms. Kim.
Suffice it to say that currently we do not exist in a state of total war. While there is an ongoing border war, and there have been several fleet engagements, this does not a total war make.
Without even touching the politics involved in the destruction of the Shiigaru, it is right and good that Caldari corporations attempt to help Caldari. How is this even a point of discussion?
And Ms. Vitalia, sometimes humility will achieve what pride will not. I'm not sure I'd expect you to understand. |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
411
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Posted - 2013.03.26 17:39:00 -
[63] - Quote
Hey, next we'll get to hear how well off the Caldari on CP and in Ishukone will be if they rejoin the Federation. "Oh, dear Federal Senate, won't you forgive our treason two hundred years ago and kindly permit us to live under your comforting umbrella?"
Most of the people on Caldari Prime were trying to kill us a few days ago. The Gallente dropped our Titan on their heads. Why should we go slinking and begging to the Senate to help those who hate us and would murder us? |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
6
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Posted - 2013.03.26 17:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
Thank you for illustrating the fallacy of the slippery slope, Vikarion-haan. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
402
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Posted - 2013.03.26 17:47:00 -
[65] - Quote
Ms. Vitalia,
Lets be very clear about this.
There is no doubt that the Federation has the upper hand in this situation. The Home Fleet was utterly destroyed and Federal forces maintain orbital dominance while the latest analytics show State forces having only a marginal edge of less than ten percent over Federation ground troops. Those men are now cut off from all hope of reinforcement, surrounded by enemy territory and face the same situation we faced two hundred years ago, except for the fact that most of these men and women are not natives of our Homeworld and are at an even larger disadvantage than those who originally fought against Federal occupation.
Unless something is done those men and women are going to meet a less than favorable death. The situation is unsustainable, now more than ever. There is no honor in being prideful to the point of being blinded by it.
The fact of the matter is that we're not in control of this situation, the Federation is, and if we want our Home back then we're going to have to keep our options open. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
412
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Posted - 2013.03.26 17:52:00 -
[66] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:The fact of the matter is that we're not in control of this situation, the Federation is, and if we want our Home back then we're going to have to keep our options open.
It's better to lose CP than to give the Federation any sort of semblance of control over our actions. To seek rapprochement of any kind with the Federation now is to betray all every other Mega and Caldari citizen. It's also to fall into the trap of "divide and conquer" the Federation wishes to set. Ishukone should be very careful.
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
402
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Posted - 2013.03.26 18:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
We've already losing Home, there is no way we can field enough forces to ensure its continued security. I don't see rapprochement in his motive, I see political tact in negotiating access to the people who have near unequivocal control of our Homeworld and the diplomatic approach to keeping it. The stages are still young, and last I read there was the possibility of demilitarization.
I don't believe Ishuokne intends to hand over Home to the Federation in the end. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera JIHADASQUAD
760
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Posted - 2013.03.26 18:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ishukone is playing into Federal hands.
One megacorp unilaterally negotiating implies State fragmentation, divided opinions, and competing objectives.
All megacorps negotiating as one while showing a clear resolve to escalate if need be strengthens their position.
If you are in a weakened negotiating position then you must appear reckless enough to have no regard for your own safety and willing to do -anything- to have your needs met.
Although possibly not true, they should be made to think you are zealous enough to sink endless time, resources, and lives into this.
The calculations the Federation will make on negotiations can be tilted based on expenditures of resources, lives, and time that they will have to contend with. Time is the enemy of war for democracy.
If they think your going to cost them blood and treasure in an endless war of attrition they will be made to see reason. For them it is a matter of policy and sovereignty. They are fighting for an abstract ideal, you are fighting for your home.
Many of you are also seeing this as a bi-polar situation, with the front and all pieces moving back and forth along a single line.
In of Caldari Prime, out of Caldari Prime. Forward. Backward. Attack, Retreat.
There are other fronts. Pressure can be applied in many areas.
This would be an opportune time to seek the assistance of your ally the Empire.
Sabik now, Sabik forever |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
402
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Posted - 2013.03.26 18:18:00 -
[69] - Quote
The State is of fragmented opinion, there is nothing to imply because it is simple fact. History has shown that one should not underestimate Ishukone, I don't care what Corporation you come from, this is nothing but truth.
The cards are just now being dealt and the game is in its infancy. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
773
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 18:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
You severely underestimate the Caldari in this regard, Vitalia. ~Malcolm Khross
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
384
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Posted - 2013.03.26 18:32:00 -
[71] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:Diana Kim wrote: Mega-corporation has greater resources and number of ships, than I will ever see in my life. Their abilities are greatly overcoming mine. They can realise complex plans, strategies and maneuvers, that I will never have possibility to conduct myself.
The problem is, that among numerous ways of achieving the goal, they have choosen the least honorable one.
I believe you misunderstand. Ishukone certainly has more resources and ships than you ever will, but they also have a responsibility to do whats best in the interest of their people. That does not include rash and foolish actions. I can only reiterate that there is absolutely nothing dishonorable about being smart. Then why did they act rashly and foolishly, staining their pride with coming to our enemy on their knees?
Makoto Priano wrote:I'm not even sure where to begin, Ms. Kim.
Suffice it to say that currently we do not exist in a state of total war. While there is an ongoing border war, and there have been several fleet engagements, this does not a total war make.
Without even touching the politics involved in the destruction of the Shiigaru, it is right and good that Caldari corporations attempt to help Caldari. How is this even a point of discussion? Yes, it wasn't a total war, and it wasn't a border war. This war was waged on a limited set of regions, that parties agreed to be affected. Well, I say it was, because Gallente started to act outside of set limits. This practically breaks anything and allows us to hit whenever we want.
And of course it is right and good for a corporation to help peoples. The problem is not what they do, but how they do it. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
384
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 18:39:00 -
[72] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote: This would be an opportune time to seek the assistance of your ally the Empire.
Well, I have tried to gather peoples who would want to fight against gallentean threat with us, but, unfortunately, so far I managed to attract only gallentean bootlickers, who can't even discuss problems, but only spit bile and insults.
I think we need to give people more time to realise how dangerous gallenteans are and why we all should unite against them. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
169
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Posted - 2013.03.26 18:46:00 -
[73] - Quote
Silas Vitalia wrote: This would be an opportune time to seek the assistance of your ally the Empire.
I'm helping, darling! I'm helping!
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1093
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 14:14:00 -
[74] - Quote
SuVee and other Caldari corporations want to join the relief effort, but not sure if the Fed will let them in. |
Anja Suorsa
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
32
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Posted - 2013.04.02 14:31:00 -
[75] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:SuVee and other Caldari corporations want to join the relief effort, but not sure if the Fed will let them in.
The Federation will not need to let them in. They are offering their resources to Ishukone to assist in their relief efforts. The Federal navy is still checking shipments from Ishukone (presumably) so the scope for sneaking illicit materials into the aid shipments is effectively nullified. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
291
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Posted - 2013.04.02 15:17:00 -
[76] - Quote
That's good news, now the Practicals are on board with helping out our citizens on Caldari Prime. I wonder if, or when the Patriots bloc will get in on this.
On a side note, I wonder what this does to the baseless accusations that Ishukone is somehow betraying the State by providing relief efforts now that more megacorps have joined in. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
801
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 15:34:00 -
[77] - Quote
Ishukone's stock will only continue to strengthen as the other Corporations lend their support to Reppola's gambit. Glad to see that not only Ishukone value action for the civilian populace over more saber rattling and threats of violence, suprised as to this move coming from SuVee first though.
Can't help but think this weakens Heth's position somewhat, he speaks ill of Ishukone then watches as other Megas turn to assist in their efforts. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Lialus Raithe
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
177
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Posted - 2013.04.02 16:04:00 -
[78] - Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
700
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 16:19:00 -
[79] - Quote
Lialus Raithe wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters?
It's never that simple, Msr Raithe. The Practical Bloc (of which Suuvee is the largest member) have had a great deal of support for the Executor's policies in the past, but those policies and the political landscape surrounding them have been changing a great deal, of late.
The Practical Bloc is one of the more politically pragmatic sections of Caldari politics. |
Lialus Raithe
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
177
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Posted - 2013.04.02 16:27:00 -
[80] - Quote
I see, thank you for the clarification. |
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Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
85
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Posted - 2013.04.02 16:35:00 -
[81] - Quote
It is worth noting that any interference with these operations, by the CPD or by the Navy, if they are so misguided as to actually do so, will be a clear violation of corporate sovereignty and will therefore be a State crime, as there has been no order from the CEP to interfere with these operations, and considering those currently involved, it seems clear no such order will be forthcoming.
Now is the time for the CEP to come out and make it clear that there must be no interference with these operations, so that the officers of the Navy understand their full duties as the military arm of the Panel. It is also imperative that officers of the Navy follow the chain of command -- the Navy's orders originate from the CEP, not any single CEO or other supposed authority. To do otherwise would be treasonous, and I know that the most within the Navy seek only to serve the best interests of the State.
If there is a belief on the part of some corporations that these convoys are in violation of the law, then your clear legal recourse is to call for the Tribunal investigation -- anything more would be a blatant violation of corporate sovereignty. The Navy is not the enforcer of intercorporate law unless ordered to do so by the CEP. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
50
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:05:00 -
[82] - Quote
Still, despite being more complicated than SuVee having been a supporter and now no longer being one, it does show that the Megacorporations are willing to go against the whims of Executor Heth. They would only do this if they feel that public sentiment is turning against Heth.
Heth being marginalized can only be good for the State, provided that he doesn't attempt to lash out. |
Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate
1093
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 17:22:00 -
[83] - Quote
Lialus Raithe wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters?
They are Practicals for a reason, they will stab Heth in the back when the situation will fit them.
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
50
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Posted - 2013.04.02 17:53:00 -
[84] - Quote
'Stab him in the back?' Interesting turn of phrase.
Perhaps 'no longer support him' or 'abide by public sentiment' might be more reasonable ones. |
Lialus Raithe
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
178
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Posted - 2013.04.02 18:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Lialus Raithe wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters? They are Practicals for a reason, they will stab Heth in the back when the situation will fit them.
That's...not exactly how I'd put it.
I'm sure any Caldari could correct me here but I've always seen Practicals as being absent any tangential loyalties.
By that I mean they do not claim loyalty to any set of ideals, ethics, principles or people. It is simply for the State and the Caldari. Alawys choose the most efficient, effective method for benefiting the State and subsequently themselves. If Executor Heth is that method then support him. The moment he ceases being that method, support the preferred one.
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Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
299
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:16:00 -
[86] - Quote
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:It is worth noting that any interference with these operations, by the CPD or by the Navy, if they are so misguided as to actually do so, will be a clear violation of corporate sovereignty and will therefore be a State crime, as there has been no order from the CEP to interfere with these operations, and considering those currently involved, it seems clear no such order will be forthcoming.
Funny you should mention that. I received a disturbing communique earlier from Sami Okuuda regarding the supplies SuVee will be providing, and the message seems to be a call for capsuleers to support a naval interdiction. I later recieved a message from the CEP asking me to ignore the directives of the Navy on this issue, so something has gone wrong somewhere along the chain of command.
I am currently indisposed at the moment due to my operations being several wormholes removed from Caldari space, but despite my previous loyalties to the Navy, I hope anyone else who received the same messages as me, comply with wishes of the CEP rather than the Navy as the former carries ultimate authority.
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:Lialus Raithe wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Sukuuvesta Corporation one of Executor Heth's strongest supporters? They are Practicals for a reason, they will stab Heth in the back when the situation will fit them. That's a bit disingenuous. First of all the corporations and their CEOs are beholden to their stockholders and the Caldri people more than to any one man. Second, Heth has made some bad decisions recently, so they are fully within their rights to change their policies. "Stabbing Heth in the back" is not really an accurate description of the chain of events. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
52
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:36:00 -
[87] - Quote
Kraid-haan, could you share more information about Okuuda-haan's concerns? That is a very curious sequence of events. I wonder if it occurred while information on the establishment of a DMZ was still filtering out...? |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
301
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Posted - 2013.04.02 19:58:00 -
[88] - Quote
The message was quite short. It claims that the Caldari State will be attempting to prevent SuVee from "misallocating assets bookmarked for use in the war effort against the Gallente Federation" He then mentions to expect resistance from the Peace and Order Unit, but requests loyal capsuleers help in "preventing Sukuuvestaa from inappropriately using assets"
Odo Hakaalen of the CEP sent a message a little bit later claiming those assets are private property of Sukuuvestaa, and asked for assistance in safeguarding and transport of the materials which he says are going toward Caldari Prime relief efforts.
I am a bit concerned since Okuuda is supposed to be under investigation at the moment (or at least that's what Heth promised a few days ago), and it seems this act is against the wishes of the CEP. The operation is supposed to begin in a few minutes, so keep an eye on the news. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
52
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:12:00 -
[89] - Quote
I'll be able to access my pod in the next ten minutes. Please eve-mail me with any known rally points. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
704
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Posted - 2013.04.02 21:05:00 -
[90] - Quote
The CEP ruling was enforced, through the application of firepower.
Sadly many Peace and Order crewmen lost their lives doing so, thanks to the fickle Capsuleer alliances who attended, but the Templis Dragonaur forces were routed and the supplies were successfully escorted to Home. |
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