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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1088
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Posted - 2013.03.24 16:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
As I write this Amarr Militia is once again on the ropes. We're down to our three main strongholds as well as some outliers that can fall at any time. There has been a huge influx of Russian fighters and Rising Sun, a 250+ former Gallente corp, has taken up residence in Dal as well. The numbers tell the story:
Minmatar Militia - 5751 Pilots Amarr Militia - 3878 Pilots
For the statistically challenged - an 1873 pilot difference.
Now we can talk about farmers and plexes until we're blue in the face. I believe though that CCP is done with FW. What we have is what we get. They can and should address other areas that are problems for Eve at large.
1) LP Stores. This is significant problem everywhere. Items that require a prohibitive amount of tags; the tags for items idea in general is flawed. Faction ships for one faction being more popular then another is another issue. SFI > Navy Omen is one easy example.
2) Holding space. Again this is an Eve wide issue. It's hopefully being addressed in the next expansion. I would like to see areas become famous as a flavor though. What if the factories in Dal were famous for reduced cost in building assault frigates? Something along those lines....
3) Story Line. It's absolutely horrible. Most of us don't roleplay. But choosing the white, religious fanatic, slave owning race? Yeah.... thought so. |
kraiklyn Asatru
T.R.I.A.D
214
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Posted - 2013.03.24 16:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
TL;DR Everyone joins minnies to play fwarmville.
On a side note. I get to say 'Fweddit fighting fwarmville fwarmers,'
@ Zarnak, but you get sexy minmatar slaves and lots of gold... |
Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
39
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Posted - 2013.03.24 16:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
1) The rewards that come from faction ships are at this point neglectable. Other items give better conversion rates.
2) The importance of holding space issue isn't really something that will help the underdog faction should it get resolved. That being said I do agree that there is an issue.
3)If you want to look at something in this category, just look at character aesthetics. Amarr are and have always been ugly. People tend to avoid ugly characters and since alot of FW players come from within the matching empire ...
Say what you want, but the main problem is farmers. And you're not the only one with the problem. When Amarr was on top they plexed for Caldari and helped bring Gallente down. Now Minmatar alts are plexing Caldari into oblivion. Detach the warzones and you'll make a solid step towards starving the farmers. |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
201
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Posted - 2013.03.24 17:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
This thread makes me want to take up the violin. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
547
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Posted - 2013.03.24 17:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
As long as farming is part of it, whomever can put the most people/alts/bots/spouses on buttons wins .. back before the farm patch, when it was broken mainly due to the loathsome DT shuffle, the most important number was that of combat ready pilots .. Amarr held its own against Minmatar at 2x the size (granted, DT shuffle played a part). The speed with which it reversed is almost as high as the nine months with the mass-flip mechanic, if anyone wants more proof that farm-hands are to blame then I doubt they know how to do 2+2, much less add anything of value to anything (except maybe their diaper).
Hamstring the farm, discussed endlessly elsewhere, and tweak the whole thing so that pew has the bigger say in who holds/takes/loses space .. |
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
201
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Posted - 2013.03.24 17:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:3) Story Line. It's absolutely horrible. Most of us don't roleplay. But choosing the white, religious fanatic, slave owning race? Yeah.... thought so.
Well it does seem to fit, since all the amarr pilots come across as 8 years old, utter crybabies and/or total sperglords.
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1088
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Posted - 2013.03.24 17:46:00 -
[7] - Quote
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:3) Story Line. It's absolutely horrible. Most of us don't roleplay. But choosing the white, religious fanatic, slave owning race? Yeah.... thought so. Well it does seem to fit, since all the amarr pilots come across as 8 years old, utter crybabies and/or total sperglords.
You have 38 kills for the month and not a single solo kill? Run along Jr. This conversation is for the big dogs. |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
393
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Posted - 2013.03.24 17:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP wants that gallente and minmatar sides win because their storyline is wrote that way, it would be bit weird that amarr would be winning side when CCP storyline is different.
Maybe CCP want to make gallente winning side so they could keep gallente side populated somehow, at least some dev posts can be understood that way. Example when CCP emergency patch nerfed LP farm they were happy that all side were almost equal at size when most farmers went to gallente side. |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1605
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Posted - 2013.03.24 18:15:00 -
[9] - Quote
part of t he problem is that what retribution gave us is only half what was promised. For example the little thing "backwards running timers" which would slowly bring a contested plex into default state if nobody is in there was simply not implemented.
The lack of this little mechanic makes fighting farmers brutally time consuming and unrewarding (since if you catch them you killed a pve ship - thats the lamest form of pvp). There is still no incentive to defend a plex. The changed plex layout was pointless... all it did was to allow warpin camping (other games call it spawn camping, in eve its a feature). Farmers still run or hide like they did before. A pvper will simply give up after encountering the tenth cloaking thrasher or stabbed rifter - its just a waste of your time. Its a vicious circle.
System upgrades have also no meaning beside influencing the wz-control bar (thats all what farmers care about). A few research slots more or less are really no good reason to keep the system upgraded... esp systems with no stations in it (lol).
And whats now new is the dust influence which is basically a random variable to the whole system. Mercs do not know/care for whom or where they are fighting + there is no mechanic which would "encourage" mercs to fight at certain places or certain factions, for example via giving extra rewards if they fulfill a player driven FW contract (not frelling NPC contracts which influence sov!).
There is currently so much randomness in FW that people slowly stop to care.. that can't be healthy for a persistent universe where your actions matter blabla. And hey, who wants to join slavers in the first place - what are we fighting for again? a eve-style bounty system (done)-á dust boarding parties You fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Bad Messenger
Nasranite Watch The Bloody Ronin Syndicate
393
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Posted - 2013.03.24 18:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:part of t he problem is that what retribution gave us is only half what was promised. For example the little thing "backwards running timers" which would slowly bring a contested plex into default state if nobody is in there was simply not implemented.
The lack of this little mechanic makes fighting farmers brutally time consuming and unrewarding (since if you catch them you killed a pve ship - thats the lamest form of pvp). There is still no incentive to defend a plex. The changed plex layout was pointless... all it did was to allow warpin camping (other games call it spawn camping, in eve its a feature). Farmers still run or hide like they did before. A pvper will simply give up after encountering the tenth cloaking thrasher or stabbed rifter - its just a waste of your time. Its a vicious circle.
System upgrades have also no meaning beside influencing the wz-control bar (thats all what farmers care about). A few research slots more or less are really no good reason to keep the system upgraded... esp systems with no stations in it (lol).
And whats now new is the dust influence which is basically a random variable to the whole system. Mercs do not know/care for whom or where they are fighting + there is no mechanic which would "encourage" mercs to fight at certain places or certain factions, for example via giving extra rewards if they fulfill a player driven FW contract (not frelling NPC contracts which influence sov!).
There is currently so much randomness in FW that people slowly stop to care.. that can't be healthy for a persistent universe where your actions matter blabla. And hey, who wants to join slavers in the first place - what are we fighting for again?
backwards running timers do not change anything. |
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Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
201
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Posted - 2013.03.24 18:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:3) Story Line. It's absolutely horrible. Most of us don't roleplay. But choosing the white, religious fanatic, slave owning race? Yeah.... thought so. Well it does seem to fit, since all the amarr pilots come across as 8 years old, utter crybabies and/or total sperglords. You have 38 kills for the month and not a single solo kill? Run along Jr. This conversation is for the big dogs.
Thanks for neatly encapsulating my point :)
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ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
155
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Posted - 2013.03.24 18:32:00 -
[12] - Quote
so both side that were crowing a few weeks ago are now crying that the pendulums swung back GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
84
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Posted - 2013.03.24 18:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:so both side that were crowing a few weeks ago are now crying that the pendulums swung back This is true.
And while I am loathe to provide any comfort to one such as bowell movement. He is correct though (now that he's in the toilet) in that backward running timers will not change anything.
The farmers should get nerfed with some reduced ease and returns. And those of us that play in this part of the game for the pvp in the plexes should get some buffing. One way to do this would be to bring back the respawning of the rats. It would seem to me that it would be very simple for CCP to experiment with the difficulty of the rats. They could find a happy medium where the nooby farming alts can't just fit warp stabs and cloaks, and run the timers after their tender has killed one rat. But also not so difficult as to kill the farmers off.
Additionally, I can't believe that they can't tweak the lp gains upward for pvp kills. If they do these two things we might not have to deal with wild swings in system control brought about by farmers. You see I say this even while Gallente is on the ascendency. BM was all "you just win because of farmers" when we took the entire warzone. But once the flow changed course he was all like you guys suck and we're doing it all ourselves.
But the truth is in between. The farmers do influence the general direction of flow tremendously. But they cannot take the home systems of the other faction. That is only doable through concerted pvp. It would be nice if CCP can reduce the farmers share of directing the flow. Again without killing them off because everyone loves the occasional comedy killmail they provide.
edit - and the space **** hood of the Caldari and the religious slave abusing nutbaggery of the Amarr should either be just put out there explicitly, or they should work on bringing more ambiguity to the empire factions. i.e. either make it stupidly obvious that two are good guys and two are bad guys, or bring some more parity to the moral ambiguity of them all. Also, whoever is directing the art department really must hate the Amarr. Old religious nuttbags come from somewhere. So can't we see some young looking religious nuttbags ffs? That way more might want to play them. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1164
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Posted - 2013.03.24 19:15:00 -
[14] - Quote
Backward running timers would make it easier for somebody to run "rabbits" out of their system and would provide consequences for the rabbits warping out (and/or cloaking up, though not as much).
It will not get rid of farmers, but will make their job a bit more difficult at zero cost to people who are looking for fights.
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Durrr
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
21
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Posted - 2013.03.24 19:18:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
3) Story Line. It's absolutely horrible. Most of us don't roleplay. But choosing the white, religious fanatic, slave owning race? Yeah.... thought so.
You forgot to metion that the amarr are from the "south".
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Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
84
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Posted - 2013.03.24 19:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Backward running timers would make it easier for somebody to run "rabbits" out of their system and would provide consequences for the rabbits warping out (and/or cloaking up, though not as much).
It will not get rid of farmers, but will make their job a bit more difficult at zero cost to people who are looking for fights.
It will also hurt dplexers that are usually solo non-farmers (due to the wonderful lp) who can get blobbed out of the plexes. Meanwhile the ass end systems and timezones that the farmers farm will not be affected by this. So I don't think backward timers would fix the problem and might make it worse.
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Dash Bishop
State War Academy Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2013.03.24 19:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
Amarr: Slave-owning, hood wearing religious zealots...they're the K.K.K. of New Eden. The characters are ugly and the ships aren't much better. And people wonder why they're unpopular? Really?
Just taking a wild stab in the dark, but I would guess in terms of overall popularity:
- Caldari
- Gallente
- Minmatar
- Amarr
And this is based on character looks only. Ship designs probably play a small part in that too, but you can change what ships you fly. You can't change being an ugly toon. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1088
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 19:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
What people want is for the offensive timers to run back down in home systems. The defensive timers should stay where they are at. Why not just make it part of the system upgrades? At upgrade lvl x the timers start to roll back... |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
138
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Posted - 2013.03.24 20:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
LP store is overdue an overhaul and tiercide should take care of the ship problem, donGÇÖt think you will having to worry about fleet stabbers as all the LP is probably going to be dumped into Firetails. Amarr LP store is pretty good with the best armour mods I would certainly like a few changes to a few Gallente LP store items that are inferior even if it is just fittings.
Holding Space - if only there were a mechanism in lowsec where factions could hold space and upgrade said space to provide useful benefits, wonder how that would work.
The first character I created was Amarr, they had lasers and I liked the ships then I went away on holiday reads blogs and the book came home and started again with Gallente. To be fair I decided I preferred drone style up close combat ships (didnGÇÖt realise things were broken at the time). I felt the novel did portray the main Amarr character in a good way, but perhaps CCP hasnGÇÖt pushed forward the story enough to show the multiple aspects of the various factions and this causes the Amarr to suffer in particular.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
548
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 20:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:so both side that were crowing a few weeks ago are now crying that the pendulums swung back Name them, most of the posters here so far have lamented the power of the farmer first with crowing a distant second .. and for the record, it is not a pendulum as those are predictable in their motion, what we are living with is a locust swarm (Farmers with no affiliation/loyalty) so extensive that its erratic movements changes the very world we live in (ex. Amarr shed 30 odd systems in less than a fortnight).
Farmers are in it because the ISK/hr is through the roof with no conflict involved, anything that changes that will make some move on (or if we are lucky, fight!) .. auto-timers won't fix it, at least not alone. But it is as I see it one of the bigger straws that is needed if the camel's back is to be broken; other straws are rat revisions. tier revisions and mission revisions.
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ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
155
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Posted - 2013.03.24 20:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Quote: (ex. Amarr shed 30 odd systems in less than a fortnight).]
i meant when amarr were pushing those systems a few weeks ago and went to t3-4 the amarr victor crys were there same with the caldari(were they not taken in same way?) now its swung bk its broke again....
and i have stated im for rollbacks on multiple threads GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1165
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Posted - 2013.03.24 21:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Backward running timers would make it easier for somebody to run "rabbits" out of their system and would provide consequences for the rabbits warping out (and/or cloaking up, though not as much).
It will not get rid of farmers, but will make their job a bit more difficult at zero cost to people who are looking for fights.
It will also hurt dplexers that are usually solo non-farmers (due to the wonderful lp) who can get blobbed out of the plexes. Meanwhile the ass end systems and timezones that the farmers farm will not be affected by this. So I don't think backward timers would fix the problem and might make it worse. Yes it will. de-plexers should be prepared to fight as well. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
85
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Posted - 2013.03.24 21:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Deacon Abox wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Backward running timers would make it easier for somebody to run "rabbits" out of their system and would provide consequences for the rabbits warping out (and/or cloaking up, though not as much).
It will not get rid of farmers, but will make their job a bit more difficult at zero cost to people who are looking for fights.
It will also hurt dplexers that are usually solo non-farmers (due to the wonderful lp) who can get blobbed out of the plexes. Meanwhile the ass end systems and timezones that the farmers farm will not be affected by this. So I don't think backward timers would fix the problem and might make it worse. Yes it will. de-plexers should be prepared to fight as well. You know we fight. What I'm saying is that not enough people take deplexing seriously. Because they are fewer in number, timer rollbacks will affect them more than the throngs of farming offensive plexers. But Zarnak already posted one idea to address that. The timer rollbacks would affect offensive but not defensive plexing. This seems ok to me. |
ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
155
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Posted - 2013.03.24 21:46:00 -
[24] - Quote
imho that would just switch the farmers to defensive plexers so they dont get hampered that much GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
548
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 22:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote: i meant when amarr were pushing those systems a few weeks ago and went to t3-4 the amarr victor crys were there same with the caldari(were they not taken in same way?) now its swung bk its broke again.... Probably not anyone of worth, weight or substance then
The fact some believe the whole idea that a militia, any militia, suddenly gets its act together and does a years worth of work in a few weeks having neither massive number superiority nor ballooning KBs, just proves that they have no idea what is what.
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:...and i have stated im for rollbacks on multiple threads Much appreciated by all I am sure, always good to have another champion of common sense on the barricades
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:imho that would just switch the farmers to defensive plexers so they dont get hampered that much Doubtful as the payout is low enough to make even high-sec 4s look shiny .. and it would mean attacking plexers (ie. the non-farmers sitting on buttons) would have something to chew on so no downside. Reason why both timers should auto-run is that the result of d-timers being excluded would be all HQ systems, or possible all nearby system, permanently speed bumped with plexes within a few seconds of capping .. having both used that and been subjected to it in the olden days, I would be loathe to see it be re-introduced as a 'mechanic'/'tactic'.
At any rate, defenders already have the tier points from system and docking rights (read: reship capability) and if that is not enough for them to use the F1-F8 buttons rather than the 'cloak'/'dock' button then so be it, let them burn trying to get their stabbed junk out before system falls. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1089
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Posted - 2013.03.24 22:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
I can't even begin to count the number of times I've been deplexing a home system and a shout comes over comms that ship A is pointed and a buddy needs help. I should lose minutes on the timer for that? Penalizing deplexing would be horribly unpopular. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
85
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Posted - 2013.03.24 22:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:imho that would just switch the farmers to defensive plexers so they dont get hampered that much Not really. Farmers don't care about deplexing a home system at 40 and bringing it down to 5 again. Farmers by definition go where the lp rewards are highest and easiest. Mainly the backwater systems that almost nobody lives in, or at the times that few people are logged on. And the offensive plexing being more lucrative they will seek that out. Also, I would guess that the human behind the farmer(s) will simply log on a different toon in the opposing militia in order to pile onto the higher tier offensive plexing rewards. This is one reason why we get wild swings even now under the current mechanics. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
548
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 22:42:00 -
[28] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:I can't even begin to count the number of times I've been deplexing a home system and a shout comes over comms that ship A is pointed and a buddy needs help. I should lose minutes on the timer for that? Penalizing deplexing would be horribly unpopular. Timers won't (or shouldn't) start on their own, the legitimate 'touch' of an enemy should be required. So for d-plexes the attacker would have to clear rats before timer starts resetting .. nor will it ever be able to go further that 50/50 (ie. reset).
Now if CCP is able distinguish between a warp-off and a cloak as it relates to timer inactivity we could get rid of cloakers at the same time .. timer already counting backwards before you land on grid? Well **** son, the bastard's cloaked up and didn't skedaddle like his umpteen buddies.
But, null first. Getting their crap in order has the potential to fix the farming problem as they'd have something else to do .. after that low-sec in general. Sick of non-FW space being nothing more than concord free high-sec when it could be a goddamn maggot teeming rat infested hell hole of a pirate haven.
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ALUCARD 1208
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
155
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Posted - 2013.03.24 22:45:00 -
[29] - Quote
No they dont care about the home systems but will still dplex the higher contested backwaters with no countback. Rollbacks and stuff is good yes but backwaters will always get fkd over imo cos ppl cant be assed chasing there asses round it will ruin there isk per hr but imo they will always find those quiet systems were they can plug away most of the day untouched....
veshta yes it will be harder in your space with it being so small and since the new gates the space is better connected but out here in gal space theres alot more places to hide GÖÑ HIGH FIVES GÖÑ-á |
Christine Peeveepeeski
The Imperial Fedaykin Amarrian Commandos
262
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Posted - 2013.03.24 23:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
My fear is that CCP just won't care now.
What FW now is to EVE is just limitless isk, that is it. The actual FW part of it is for maybe 1000 active pilots across 4 militias. the rest of the active guys are all about isk to use elsewhere with no thought to the actual FW side they play.
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