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Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2013.03.24 21:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
Was looking to buy one of the two. I prefer the Omen for speed, as that matches my current needs better at the moment. However, I noticed that one of the two bonuses it gets is to capacitor usage for energy turret.
That's my issue. I saw no other basic cruiser of any race with such a 'bonus.' In fact, it doesn't seem like much of a bonus. It simply seems like a way to allow the ship to fit its energy weapons. But all other basic cruisers get to fit their weapons 'for free,' where as the Omen has to use a bonus to do it? Is this some kind of joke, or am I not understanding this correctly?
At any rate, if the good people of this forum can enlighten me further, I can better make my selection, otherwise I'm leaning towards the Maller simply because its bonuses seem to be more... real.
Thanks. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
289
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 21:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Lasers have high base DPS and high base range. Omen gets a rate of fire bonus, which is more DPS than a pure damage bonus of equal percentage, and the navy version gets an even stronger rate of fire bonus. Amarr also get big capacitors to partially compensate for lasers. Any questions?
Edit: no idea what you are using the cruiser for, but check cap stability of the omen versus cap stability of the maller before you make any decisions |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
139
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 21:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Many Amarr ships used to have that "bonus." Ask yourself what you want to do with the ship. Then figure out which ship better achieves your goal and don't get so hung up on the ship bonuses. Let the ship's performance be the measure of its effectiveness, not what is written down on paper. |
Deacon Abox
Justified Chaos
85
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 22:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote: That's my issue. I saw no other basic cruiser of any race with such a 'bonus.' In fact, it doesn't seem like much of a bonus. It simply seems like a way to allow the ship to fit its energy weapons. But all other basic cruisers get to fit their weapons 'for free,' where as the Omen has to use a bonus to do it? Is this some kind of joke, or am I not understanding this correctly? Well it's not entirely so simple and unfair. The original concept I think was to give each gun a downside and then have the ships give a compensatory bonus.
So for hybrids the tracking bonus was given to Gallente. It would accomplish two things, make the horrible tracking on rails usable since range is a strength of the weapon, and for blasters it would further buff a strength leaving a range disability to be addressed by mods. For Caldari hybrids they were given an optimal bonus, similar effect to range on rails as the gallente bonus effect on blasters. Basically buffing a strength. But the big effect would be on blasters, addressing the major range disability while necessitating some minor mod help for tracking.
For projectiles you often see a rof bonus acting in a compensatory manner. That is a major drawback of arty. So the rof bonus makes the dps passable. Simultaneously for auto cannons it plays up a minor strength and leaves other disabilities to be addressed by mods.
For lasers the idea was to give them a disability of lots of cap use. As to what was meant to be the strength of lasers I do not know. Hybrids got dps (and in the case of rails range), projectiles got alpha and ac range projection through falloff. Not sure what was meant to be the strengths of lasers. Other than pulses having a long-ish optimal.
Even for missiles a drawback was delayed damage. One way to address this is to make the missiles faster to target. I think this was the essential idea behind missile speed bonuses. However, those are as constructed essentially also range bonuses.
Yes the cap use bonus in isolation is a downer. However it is nice to have for pve. In pvp it matters less because the time frames tend to be short enough so as to not always cap yourself out. Unfortunately the 10% cap use bonus will not save a laser boat from losing it's damage ability from getting neuted. And therein is a problem.
Anyway, it appears to be sticking around through rebalancing. So learn to live with seeing it. Now if they gave lasers something in which they could shine (heh, I know), then it might not be so bad to see the 10% reduction in cap use ship bonus. |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
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Posted - 2013.03.24 22:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Inkarr Hashur wrote:Lasers have high base DPS and high base range.
Not really. They don't particularly stand out when compared with other weapon systems (railguns = best range, blasters = best dps, etc). Their only "standout" feature seems to be that you can switch ammo in 1 second vs. 10 seconds.
Quote:For lasers the idea was to give them a disability of lots of cap use. As to what was meant to be the strength of lasers I do not know. Hybrids got dps (and in the case of rails range), projectiles got alpha and ac range projection through falloff. Not sure what was meant to be the strengths of lasers.
This. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
139
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 23:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lasers are midrange weapons. They do good DPS at moderate ranges. They are not supposed to obsolete all other platforms. The lasers got their high cap use to stop people from fitting them on EVERYTHING. CCP has gradually moved away from the 10% less cap use "bonus" towards other ways to make lasers viable only on Amarr ships - or to give Amarr ships other advantages that make up for the shortcomings of the lasers. Perhaps it would have been better to give them 5-10% more cap recharge per level in conjunction with the ROF bonus. It would have a similar effect while allowing the player to make more interesting fitting decisions.
Either way, the Omen and Maller are relatively similar. Pick your play style and then the ship that suits it better. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
289
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 23:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:Inkarr Hashur wrote:Lasers have high base DPS and high base range. Not really. They don't particularly stand out when compared with other weapon systems (railguns = best range, blasters = best dps, etc). Their only "standout" feature seems to be that you can switch ammo in 1 second vs. 10 seconds. Quote:For lasers the idea was to give them a disability of lots of cap use. As to what was meant to be the strength of lasers I do not know. Hybrids got dps (and in the case of rails range), projectiles got alpha and ac range projection through falloff. Not sure what was meant to be the strengths of lasers.
This. I never said "best". I said "high". Which is true.
Play around with weapons on an unbonused hull, pulse has higher DPS than autocannons. Beams have the highest DPS of the long range weapons, pulse has the greatest range of the shortrange weapons. Someone will come along with "projection" of autocannons, but really that's a stretch, because they'll still be firing in falloff and losing a large chunk of DPS while your pulse laser won't be. Hence why I claim lasers have high DPS and high range. Because they do. |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 23:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Lasers are midrange weapons. They do good DPS at moderate ranges. They are not supposed to obsolete all other platforms.
Well, I never implied that anything in the game was supposed to obsolete anything else. I simply said that lasers seemed sort of 'meh.' Perhaps 'meh' would be fine if they didn't have a particularly large handicap, but using so much cap that ships have to use up a 'bonus' just to fit them seems like a deal-breaker to me, unless I can find some other reason to use them.
Quote:The lasers got their high cap use to stop people from fitting them on EVERYTHING.
I don't see any reason to suppose folks would fit them on everything, because they aren't superior to everything else.
No, the high cap use seems to be the 'drawback' they thought up for using lasers. But the problem with this drawback is that it actually hinders fitting the damn things, requiring using up ship bonuses to fit them.
Thanks for all the feedback though. I remain unconvinced at this time, but will check back to see if anyone says anything that sways me. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3228
|
Posted - 2013.03.24 23:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:Inkarr Hashur wrote:Lasers have high base DPS and high base range. Not really. They don't particularly stand out when compared with other weapon systems (railguns = best range, blasters = best dps, etc). Their only "standout" feature seems to be that you can switch ammo in 1 second vs. 10 seconds. Quote:For lasers the idea was to give them a disability of lots of cap use. As to what was meant to be the strength of lasers I do not know. Hybrids got dps (and in the case of rails range), projectiles got alpha and ac range projection through falloff. Not sure what was meant to be the strengths of lasers.
This.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 00:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:You have no idea what you're talking about.
I never claimed to know what I'm talking about. In fact it is why I posted here - because I'm a noob who doesn't know what he's talking about. So feel free to enlighten me if you have advice, rather than just throwing out troll bait or whatever. I don't mind listening to what folks have to say, it's why I posted this. |
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Kosetzu
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
64
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Posted - 2013.03.25 00:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:Perhaps it would have been better to give them 5-10% more cap recharge per level in conjunction with the ROF bonus. It would have a similar effect while allowing the player to make more interesting fitting decisions. This would only result in some insane prop/tank fit with ACs that have better mobility and tank than lasers while having about the same damage. Flat out cap recharge bonuses benefits the ship whatever their weapon type(s) are, and won't be an incentive for lasers most of the time, even though it helps them as well... |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
289
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 00:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kosetzu wrote:FT Diomedes wrote:Perhaps it would have been better to give them 5-10% more cap recharge per level in conjunction with the ROF bonus. It would have a similar effect while allowing the player to make more interesting fitting decisions. This would only result in some insane prop/tank fit with ACs that have better mobility and tank than lasers while having about the same damage. Flat out cap recharge bonuses benefits the ship whatever their weapon type(s) are, and won't be an incentive for lasers most of the time, even though it helps them as well... ...What? |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 01:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
Kosetzu wrote:[quote=FT Diomedes]Flat out cap recharge bonuses benefits the ship whatever their weapon type(s) are, and won't be an incentive for lasers most of the time, even though it helps them as well...
They aren't flat out cap recharge bonuses. They are cap recharge bonuses for medium laser turrets, meaning if you fit those turrets they will use a little less capacitor than ships without the bonus. In other words, the bonus entirely revolves around being able to fit the weapon at all. |
Kosetzu
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
64
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 01:55:00 -
[14] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:They aren't flat out cap recharge bonuses. They are cap recharge bonuses for medium laser turrets, meaning if you fit those turrets they will use a little less capacitor than ships without the bonus. In other words, the bonus entirely revolves around being able to fit the weapon at all. And how would you implement that They don't even know how to remove off-grid boosting right now. Would the recharge be constant even when the guns are not active, or only the cap used by the guns? Just a activation cost reduction like some ships currently has does that well enough.
At least from what I was commenting on it didn't seem like he was talking about the current cap bonuses they have. |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
26
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 02:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kosetzu wrote:Asmodai Xodai wrote:They aren't flat out cap recharge bonuses. They are cap recharge bonuses for medium laser turrets, meaning if you fit those turrets they will use a little less capacitor than ships without the bonus. In other words, the bonus entirely revolves around being able to fit the weapon at all. And how would you implement that They don't even know how to remove off-grid boosting right now. Would the recharge be constant even when the guns are not active, or only the cap used by the guns? Just a activation cost reduction like some ships currently has does that well enough. At least from what I was commenting on it didn't seem like he was talking about the current cap bonuses they have.
I don't know how they would implement it, but I can't think of a reason why it would be hard to do.
The description of an Omen in game (cut and pasted):
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use |
Taoist Dragon
Caldari Provisions
303
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 02:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
Omen Cos it looks way better than the maller.
After all it is the only real reason to fly any ship in eve is how it looks! That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
95
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 02:21:00 -
[17] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Omen Cos it looks way better than the maller.
After all it is the only real reason to fly any ship in eve is how it looks! Scorpion lovers unite |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
27
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 02:46:00 -
[18] - Quote
Just lost my destroyer against a cruiser (almost won, but his armor repair and cap steal was too much), so ended up going with with the Omen simply because of the larger drone bay. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
95
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 02:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
I don't fly amarr, but the maller is a better choice because of it's durability |
Taoist Dragon
Caldari Provisions
303
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 03:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
TBH I still find the Omen more all round than the maller.
The speed and damage of the omen is great and if fit for brawling can sport a decent tank as well. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything. |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3229
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:03:00 -
[21] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:You have no idea what you're talking about. I never claimed to know what I'm talking about. In fact it is why I posted here - because I'm a noob who doesn't know what he's talking about. So feel free to enlighten me if you have advice, rather than just throwing out troll bait or whatever. I don't mind listening to what folks have to say, it's why I posted this.
I'm sorry, but you seem to have had your mind made up before coming to the forums. You're throwing around absolutes and flat out contradicting people like you think you know what's up. Once you stop asking questions and start down that road... well, your "I'm a poor helpless noob, don't troll me bro" defense falls a little flat.
The truth is that lasers do have an exceptionally high base DPS and have unmatched damage projection. I have a strong preference for the Omen vs the Maller - it is both faster and has more DPS. And frankly, the whole OP strikes me as someone who has never actually tried to fly a laser ship. Because flying the Omen is an exercise in what the **** where did my cap go!?!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Siigari Kitawa
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
283
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lasers are great at applying damage. Their ease of optimal range means that you have some of the most competitive damage coming from lasers.
When I met my first laser boat (the Ashimmu) I fell in love :] Whether it be 1km or 20km, I can plug you for high damage, and not have to worry about tracking too much. Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm sorry, but you seem to have had your mind made up before coming to the forums.
Mind made up on what? Selection of Maller vs. Omen? I obviously didn't have my mind made up, as I bought an Omen after having seriously leaned towards a Maller initially. I don't like the so-called 'bonus' the Omen gets, but it has a larger drone bay which is what swung me over in the end.
Not sure what set you off about my post, but whatever.
Quote:You're throwing around absolutes and flat out contradicting people like you think you know what's up.
Why are you so sensitive and butthurt about someone positing what they know (or think they know) and asking for advice, evidence counter to what was posited, etc? I'm not sure what 'absolutes' I threw around. I just gave information that is available from CCP on ship bonuses, laser damage, etc. If I was right, fine. If I was wrong, fine, I gladly stand to be corrected. I don't get your reaction, unless it is just trolling.
*Shrug*.
Quote:And frankly, the whole OP strikes me as someone who has never actually tried to fly a laser ship.
I'm Amarr, I've flown laser ships exclusively. Not that that means anything - I'm a month old noob. |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
While I'm here... I can't fit the 5th medium laser on the Omen - something about not enough power grid capacity or whatever. Any advice? Is there a skill I can skill up, a module I can throw on there?
Thanks. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3229
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Engineering and Advanced Weapon Upgrades. Then again, it might just be Electronics or Weapon Upgrades, depending on the whatever.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Engineering and Advanced Weapon Upgrades. Then again, it might just be Electronics or Weapon Upgrades, depending on the whatever.
-Liang
Thanks - will check it out. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3229
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 05:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Asmodai Xodai wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I'm sorry, but you seem to have had your mind made up before coming to the forums. Mind made up on what? Selection of Maller vs. Omen? I obviously didn't have my mind made up, as I bought an Omen after having seriously leaned towards a Maller initially. I don't like the so-called 'bonus' the Omen gets, but it has a larger drone bay which is what swung me over in the end. Not sure what set you off about my post, but whatever.
No, you actually had your mind made up about Amarr, lasers, and how "crappy" the bonus on the Omen was. At least, judging from your subsequent posts.
Quote: Why are you so sensitive and butthurt about someone positing what they know (or think they know) and asking for advice, evidence counter to what was posited, etc? I'm not sure what 'absolutes' I threw around. I just gave information that is available from CCP on ship bonuses, laser damage, etc. If I was right, fine. If I was wrong, fine, I gladly stand to be corrected. I don't get your reaction, unless it is just trolling.
*Shrug*.
I'm not butthurt at all about anything you've said. I was simply pointing out that you had no idea what you were talking about despite the authoritative "This" and "That" and "Whatever". And really, you don't seem to be very glad to stand corrected. ;-)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
97
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 06:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Well considering their close pg they'll have similar weapons which means an omen will be shooting far longer than a maller before taking cap altering steps, which means with it's higher speed and drone bay it can kite decently (from what I've heard) |
Asmodai Xodai
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 08:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: No, you actually had your mind made up about Amarr, lasers, and how "crappy" the bonus on the Omen was.
Well yes, unless someone says something to change my mind on it, presents some kind of logic or reasoning I hadn't considered, etc. then I think the bonus on the Omen is somewhat crappy.
Quote:I was simply pointing out that you had no idea what you were talking about despite the authoritative "This" and "That" and "Whatever". And really, you don't seem to be very glad to stand corrected. ;-)
If it makes you feel any better, I'll announce to the high heavens yet again that since I'm a noob, I obviously know little of what I'm talking about. And yes, if anything I've said is wrong, I will say again "I stand happy to be corrected." |
The VC's
Spack Force 5
127
|
Posted - 2013.03.25 10:58:00 -
[30] - Quote
1. Op, a confessed noob starts topic asking for advice.
2. Argues good advice received from knowledgable players with reputation for helping noobs.
3. Reveals he can't fit a full rack of guns which implies poor support skills so should probably give sp intensive ships a miss for a while. |
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