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Rina Kondur
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
22
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Posted - 2013.03.25 02:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'd like to propose the while CCP is currently re-balancing ships, they take another look at the Omen in it's current iteration. While better than the original Omen, it is still a lack luster cruiser that doesn't really fit in with any meta or doctrine fit. The Maller is in almost every way still a better ship as they both have a very similar role.
If you look at a traditional AHAC fit for a T1 Cruiser, the Maller is by far the superior choice and leaves very little reason to even think about flying an Omen.
I'm proposing that rather than it's current rate of fire bonus, the Omen switches ROF for a 10% Optimal Range bonus per level of Amarr Cruiser. Now, before you argue that this is too close to a Zealot, the Zealot is still going to be a better ship and probably the go to AHAC (unless the re-balancing drastically changes it). The Zealot will still have the superior DPS and range that fitting heavy pulse lasers can do, something the Omen can not do(if you want to fit a tank as well). Plus the benefit of T2 resists can never be beaten by a T1 Cruiser.
So take your typical Zealot AHAC fit and compare it to a similar Omen AHAC fit. With my changes, the Omen would see a slight drop in DPS but the range would be extended around a 32km optimal with Scorch. Again, not as good as the T2 option but it creates a new role for the ship. A different area for it to shine rather than being overshadowed by the Maller as it currently is.
TLDR: The Omen is currently overshadowed by the Maller in almost every way. By dropping it's ROF bonus and giving it an Optimal Range bonus you create a great stepping stone to T2 AHACs and a new role for the Omen to fill in the T1 Cruiser realm. This would also allow newer players to participate and actually help with large scale fights involving AHACs. |
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere hydra reloaded
499
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Posted - 2013.03.25 03:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Kite with it |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
96
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Posted - 2013.03.25 04:54:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wait can't it get a much higher dps with it having a rof bonus? |
Rina Kondur
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
25
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Posted - 2013.03.25 05:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Wait can't it get a much higher dps with it having a rof bonus?
You're only looking at roughly 30 more DPS than a Maller while having a considerably weaker tank, resist and buffer amount. Without the power grid to effectively fit heavy pulse lasers (beams are crap on it as well) you're forced to fly it in more of a brawling range, which it just doesn't have the tank to do.
As for the suggestion to kite with it, I'm not sure what you're kiting it with, maybe a Moa? If that's the case you can kite a Moa with anything that shoots further than 10km and actually moves. Besides, if you really enjoy kiting, obviously a range bonus would be a benefit to your style of PvP as well.
The way it is now it's just a very odd ship with no real role in the lineup of cruisers. It doesn't even have the mids and CPU to be a heavy tackle ship like Minmatar can do. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
97
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Posted - 2013.03.25 05:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Rina Kondur wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Wait can't it get a much higher dps with it having a rof bonus? You're only looking at roughly 30 more DPS than a Maller while having a considerably weaker tank, resist and buffer amount. Without the power grid to effectively fit heavy pulse lasers (beams are crap on it as well) you're forced to fly it in more of a brawling range, which it just doesn't have the tank to do. As for the suggestion to kite with it, I'm not sure what you're kiting it with, maybe a Moa? If that's the case you can kite a Moa with anything that shoots further than 10km and actually moves. Besides, if you really enjoy kiting, obviously a range bonus would be a benefit to your style of PvP as well. The way it is now it's just a very odd ship with no real role in the lineup of cruisers. It doesn't even have the mids and CPU to be a heavy tackle ship like Minmatar can do. That may be true when you only count the gun dps but when you factor in properly skilled drones where does the difference rise to? Maybe it could trade some of the bay/bandwidth for pg to compete with the maller since unless improperly fit the maller will always have more tank |
Sigras
Conglomo
389
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Posted - 2013.03.25 06:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
I feel like you're only telling one side of the story . . .
Sure the maller is a better AHAC than the omen, AHACing is what the maller was basically designed to do . . .
But how does it stack up against the omen when you try to kite? If you try different tactics, you'll find that a kiting omen is WAY faster than a kiting maller.
Different ships are used for different tactics. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
2128
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Posted - 2013.03.25 07:13:00 -
[7] - Quote
Rina Kondur wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Wait can't it get a much higher dps with it having a rof bonus? You're only looking at roughly 30 more DPS than a Maller while having a considerably weaker tank, resist and buffer amount. Without the power grid to effectively fit heavy pulse lasers (beams are crap on it as well) you're forced to fly it in more of a brawling range, which it just doesn't have the tank to do. There's your problem. Downgrade the guns to Focused Medium Pulse Lasers.
Using no skills (just raw stats)... A Heavy Pulse Laser has a 6 km optimal range with MultiFrequency... 18 with Scorch. A Focused Medium Pulse Laser as a 5.4 km optimal range with MultiFrequency... 16 with Scorch. The raw difference in ranges is almost negligible... only slightly bigger when a Tracking Enhancer is applied... and negligible again when level 5 skills are applied.
FMPL also have better rate of fire and tracking. In some cases they deal more damage than HPL because they tie up less ship resources... allowing you to throw on an extra Heat Sink or two. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Atrocitas
114
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Posted - 2013.03.25 08:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
The Omen suffers from the same parasites that keep the Phantasm from being any good, namely a crew that doesn't eat but rather plugs into and feeds off the ships capacitor.
I've also found that kiting is the better way to use the Omen but your EHP with that is very low 20k is often generous. With three mids it becomes very hard to keep your ship running and feed your crew unless you cap inject but now you have two mids left for MWD and point, no extenders. I tried using one with no cap injector and using MWD, point, LSE and it caps out in about 3 cycles of the MWD if you're doing anything else (I might be exaggerating slightly but not nearly as much as you'd hope for). With the armor tanking changes you can sort of use some kind of active armor kiting fit but being Amarr it's still not that fast and two tornadoes might end your trip real quick. Bring lots of cap charges with you, you'll being injecting faster than a junkie trapped in an evidence locker.
No matter how you do it though, there are ships that do it better, the Omen is never my go to ship for anything.
I do like the optimal bonus though, I wanted that in the first balance pass, even if it meant i had to forego the capacitor use bonus on the ship that needs cap injection anyway. I have ideas for an optimal bonus that would be substantially different from the Maller or any other T1 cruiser for that matter. |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Atrocitas
114
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Posted - 2013.03.25 08:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Rina Kondur wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Wait can't it get a much higher dps with it having a rof bonus? You're only looking at roughly 30 more DPS than a Maller while having a considerably weaker tank, resist and buffer amount. Without the power grid to effectively fit heavy pulse lasers (beams are crap on it as well) you're forced to fly it in more of a brawling range, which it just doesn't have the tank to do. There's your problem. Downgrade the guns to Focused Medium Pulse Lasers. Using no skills (just raw stats on an Omen)... A Heavy Pulse Laser has a 6 km optimal range with MultiFrequency... 18 with Scorch. A Focused Medium Pulse Laser has a 5.4 km optimal range with MultiFrequency... 16 with Scorch. The raw difference in ranges is almost negligible... only slightly bigger when a Tracking Enhancer is applied... and negligible again when level 5 skills are applied. FMPL also have better rate of fire and tracking. In some cases they deal more damage than HPL because they tie up less ship resources... allowing you to throw on an extra Heat Sink or two. All true, FMPL are often the better bet for these reasons, but it doesn't address the terrible EHP or the capacitor gremlins. I can't overemphasize how weak the capacitor is on the Omen. It's a massive part of the problem. |
Sigras
Conglomo
389
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Posted - 2013.03.25 09:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:The Omen suffers from the same parasites that keep the Phantasm from being any good, namely a crew that doesn't eat but rather plugs into and feeds off the ships capacitor.
I've also found that kiting is the better way to use the Omen but your EHP with that is very low 20k is often generous. With three mids it becomes very hard to keep your ship running and feed your crew unless you cap inject but now you have two mids left for MWD and point, no extenders. I tried using one with no cap injector and using MWD, point, LSE and it caps out in about 3 cycles of the MWD if you're doing anything else (I might be exaggerating slightly but not nearly as much as you'd hope for). With the armor tanking changes you can sort of use some kind of active armor kiting fit but being Amarr it's still not that fast and two tornadoes might end your trip real quick. Bring lots of cap charges with you, you'll being injecting faster than a junkie trapped in an evidence locker.
No matter how you do it though, there are ships that do it better, the Omen is never my go to ship for anything.
I do like the optimal bonus though, I wanted that in the first balance pass, even if it meant i had to forego the capacitor use bonus on the ship that needs cap injection anyway. I have ideas for an optimal bonus that would be substantially different from the Maller or any other T1 cruiser for that matter. I know that this is going to sound stupid, but try an active armor tanking setup with it. A kiting active armor tanking Omen is surprisingly effective, and now that active tanking rigs dont slow you down at all, and with the induction of the MAAR, its actually quite viable, and just as fast as any shield tanking kite ship.
plus you get the best of all three worlds, injector, MWD and point . . . in most cases, you can just out pace your enemies because you can run your MWD longer. |
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
690
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Posted - 2013.03.25 09:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Both are terrible due to having 3 mids and no room for nos
Thus can't both have cap and web.
Anyhow the omen would be better if it had a damage bonus instead of a rof bonus.. Or if the cap bonus was bigger to compensate. Beyond Divinity Recruitment is open! |
Valleria Darkmoon
Heretic Army Atrocitas
114
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Posted - 2013.03.25 10:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I know that this is going to sound stupid, but try an active armor tanking setup with it. A kiting active armor tanking Omen is surprisingly effective, and now that active tanking rigs dont slow you down at all, and with the induction of the MAAR, its actually quite viable, and just as fast as any shield tanking kite ship.
plus you get the best of all three worlds, injector, MWD and point . . . in most cases, you can just out pace your enemies because you can run your MWD longer.
I did say that could work.
In any case your EHP is still really low, to the point where alpha can potentially be game changing and plating a kite fit is just not going to work out. Amarr tend to only get three mids to avoid shield kiting fits on them, with the number of lows they can get surprising speed and agility as well as really solid dps and projection that is second to none. At least I feel this is the case anyway. Below BC only ewar ships get 4 mids (off the top of my head I can't think of anything that gets more than 4 mids in the Amarr lineup short of an Avatar) and it's because the ship is simply better using the TD bonus than it is as a shield kiter so you're going to use the mids for TDs far more often than not.
Edit: Oh wait the Recons have more than 4 mids. |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
501
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Posted - 2013.03.25 19:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Wouldn't scorch or even close range ammo that hits 50% further be better for kiting?
Assuming you're talking about a shield fit with heavy pulses..
RoF Bonus - 2x TEs, 2x Heatsinks, Scorch 325 DPS - 29+8.2
Optimal Bonus - 1x TEs, 3x Heatsinks, Scorch 274 DPS - 39+6.5 (Better Cap Stability)
So not only does the Shield Omen get a little bit better, the Armor Omen actually has a role that seperates itself from the Maller.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
AyayaPanda
15 Minute Outliers Novus Dominatum
21
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Posted - 2013.03.25 20:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
AB fit? |
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