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Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
258
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Posted - 2013.03.27 13:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
You need to read that again. It said he is investigating the actions taken by Yanala and Okuuda. He isn't investigating the cause of the loss of that ship, he has skipped straight to blaming the people he put in charge and is investigating them. To put their actions under investigation is to imply they are either incompetent or traitors.
He put Admiral Yanala in charge of the task force, and he didn't do anything to help get the Shiigeru better supported in the heart of enemy territory, so Heth shares responsibility for this colossal blunder, but he would rather 'investigate' members of the Caldari Navy, and wahs his hands of the whole situation.
I don't know what State you are from, but it certainly isn't the Caldari State. The Caldari way is that of a meritocracy: the people in power have that power because they have demonstrated they deserve to lead because they have the ability to do so. Heth has lost that ability, so it is time for him to step down or be forced down.
I am interested in the good of the Caldari people, but since I didn't go the the Tibus Heath academy of brainwashing, I am able to tell that he has outlived his usefulness, and is now acting against our best interest. If there is a bootlicker in here, its the Provist bootlicker named Diana Kim. Do the universe a favor and have some tea. |
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre ZT-07K Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
5
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Posted - 2013.03.27 13:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote: Technically, position of Executor means head of CPD, thus only CPD has power on him. Just like a janitor who starts to insult CEO will be just kicked from the corporation, this way a regular citizen questioning the Executor will be cast out. Because in order to do so, you have to earn merit first. This is the Caldari way. This is how meritocracy works.
Technically, the Executor serves at the discretion of the Chief Executive Panel and its members within a specific mandate. It would be a grievous misconception to believe that the situation is the reverse. Perhaps to use your analogy, an Executor that starts to insult the members of the CEP may just find themselves facing unforeseen consequences if, in forgetting just who it is that preserves their power, decides to call decisions to account.
This is the Caldari way.
This is how meritocracy works.
I would expect the Executives of the CEP, being the most able of us no doubt already know this and will continue to carry out their obligations to their citizens and the State with the decorum and dignity that befits their positions of leadership and authority. |
Del Vikus
Gradient Electus Matari
35
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Posted - 2013.03.27 14:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
I am guessing from Heth's sputtering rage that he suggests some collusion between Ishukone and the Federation?
While I understand and accept the troubled history between himself and that corporation, is it not just possible that there is some slight merit to his suspicions? The "humanitarian" legacy of Otro Gariushi is wildly overstated; Ishukone may be jockeying for position in a prelude to a coup.
And as much as I respect the values of the Federation (on paper), I would not put it past them to take advantage of an "inside" player such as Ishukone in the future manipulations of the Caldari situation. |
Toluijin Chagangan
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
48
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Posted - 2013.03.27 14:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kim, Firstly, your rage and insults only prove that you have difficulty entering reasonable debate against a well formed argument.
I, thankfully, have never been enslaved. I grew up amongst my own kin and free to believe in the ways and beliefs of my ancestors. Your insinuation that I would be better served addicted to vitoc and in an amarrian slave camp is both farcical and another attempt at a direct insult in response to reasoned and polite debate.
Your desription of the caldari state is heavily flawed. you are in fact claiming that to be a caldari citizen you first have to be a member of the CPD. This is untrue.
You also claim i am telling you what is means to be caldari, I am not. I am instead stating what historical fact showed it 'was' to be caldari, until approximately half a decade ago.
I have already defined a meritocracy, as have many from within the state, Your personal idea of a meritocracy looks remarkably like a military dictatorship.
And finally, I am sure you are capable of forming a corporation of your own and declaring your intent to hostility against RvB if you so choose, though I have a feeling you will not. Still, Come to Nomaa some day and shoot me without clearance, I may lose a rifter, you will likely lose more. of course that would mean abandoning your role at the supposed front line of the Caldari-Gallente conflict. still, I would accept the challenge, I am, by no means an exceptional combat pilot. but my ships have no crew, so it is only ISK i will lose.
Seven Tribes. One Matari People |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1363
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 14:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kim you've really been trying too hard ever since I told people to picture you speaking what you write in that young nasally voice of yours.
You're not even credible now.
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Anabella Rella
Gradient Electus Matari
565
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 14:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
Not even credible now? When did that genocidal, xenophobic and utterly insane waste of biomass ever have any credibility? What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1363
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 15:00:00 -
[37] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:Not even credible now? When did that genocidal, xenophobic and utterly insane waste of biomass ever have any credibility?
Well before she just seemed like a typical loyalist. But now she's MORE loyal AFTER Heth ousts himself. Even her kirijjun aren't too thrilled with her.
Side note: I'm so sorry if I spelled that wrong. I'm still working on my Napaani.
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Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
787
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Posted - 2013.03.27 15:08:00 -
[38] - Quote
Anslo wrote:kirijjun
Side note: I'm so sorry if I spelled that wrong. I'm still working on my Napaani.
Singular would be: kirjuun.
As I suspect you are using the plural: kirjuunen.
Good luck with your studies of Napanii.
Bright stars and clear horizons. ~Malcolm Khross
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Anslo
The Scope Gallente Federation
1364
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 15:09:00 -
[39] - Quote
Malcolm Khross wrote:Anslo [i wrote:kirijjun[/i]]
Side note: I'm so sorry if I spelled that wrong. I'm still working on my Napaani. Singular would be: kirjuun. As I suspect you are using the plural: kirjuunen. Good luck with your studies of Napanii. Bright stars and clear horizons.
Ugh I always get that wrong.
KIRJUUNEN. Thanks Malcolm.
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Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
123
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 15:19:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote: ...
Technically, the Executor serves at the discretion of the Chief Executive Panel and its members within a specific mandate. It would be a grievous misconception to believe that the situation is the reverse. Perhaps to use your analogy, an Executor that starts to insult the members of the CEP may just find themselves facing unforeseen consequences if, in forgetting just who it is that preserves their power, decides to call decisions to account.
...
Well put.
I'm surprised that what Heth's role entails is in any question at all, as opposed to whether he remains fit for the position. Apparently, Diana Kim does not understand even this. |
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
14
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
In other places, I have said that the need to act may arise. Let me to elaborate:
The Provists have demonstrated time and again that they have little care for the rule of law. In their mind, the possession of power allows its free exercise; it may be capricious, it may fly in the face of custom and law, but it may be exercised freely. Consider their seizure of some executives who sparked a mass resignation, consider their executive dismissal of a slander suit against Pyre Falcon, and how odds are that these 'investigations' being executed by the Provists are likely to be shams.
If Heth moves against Reppola, it will serve to me as validation of the Executor's overreach. He would punish the one man working on behalf of the Caldari on Caldari Prime, the one man trying to do some good in this whole forsaken mess.
To be honest, I don't know how one pilot can undermine the Provists to restore the rule of law. I'd like to find out, though. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
750
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:Technically, the Executor serves at the discretion of the Chief Executive Panel and its members within a specific mandate. It would be a grievous misconception to believe that the situation is the reverse. Perhaps to use your analogy, an Executor that starts to insult the members of the CEP may just find themselves facing unforeseen consequences if, in forgetting just who it is that preserves their power, decides to call decisions to account.
This is the Caldari way.
This is how meritocracy works.
I would expect the Executives of the CEP, being the most able of us no doubt already know this and will continue to carry out their obligations to their citizens and the State with the decorum and dignity that befits their positions of leadership and authority.
An excellent post, Gesakaarin-haan. Please allow me to expand, if I may.
That which is written is not the same as that which is. Words are maps, and maps are by necessity abstractions. They are often biased, falsified, or wrong. This can be by intention or by accident, but none are true reflections of reality. They can only approach, never arrive.
To understand the truth of a matter, one must read the words, and then look beyond them.
This is the Caldari way.
This is how the meritocracy works.
I would expect the Executives of the CEP, being the most able of us no doubt already know this and will continue to carry out their obligations to their citizens and the State with the decorum and dignity that befits their positions of leadership and authority. |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2343
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:34:00 -
[43] - Quote
That is not the impression of affairs various correspondence with individuals has given me, Scherezad. Mane 614
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
16
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Posted - 2013.03.27 16:55:00 -
[44] - Quote
Scherezad-haani, a comment, if I may.
While one may contend that the members of the CEP are the most able, the question in turn is where their ability lies. After all, particular skills are needed for that role which would be of no use elsewhere. What use does a dockworker have for political acumen? What use does an executive have for the ability to operate heavy machinery? This is, I suppose, one of the reasons why we revere those who rise to great power from humble backgrounds, as Heth. Of course, that Heth is losing much of his political power is clear -- and so will follow a loss of reverence. I digress.
To return to the topic at hand, the political acumen that makes the members of the CEP so able also enables them to see political reality. Consider Heth's great popularity with the masses these past few years. If the members of the Board had opposed his actions, their corporation, their workforce would have suffered greatly, and so they may have continued to serve Heth despite his increasing militancy, the increasing risk to the State as a whole.
You may revere the Executives as the most able -- but remember that they are still men, that they are still subject to the same fears and worries as the rest of us. |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
238
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:56:00 -
[45] - Quote
I applaud State Executor Tibus Heth's decision to investigate the conduct of Admiral Visera Yanala and of wing commander Sami Okuuda of the Caldari NavyGÇÖs 37th GÇÿOctopusGÇÖ Squadron.
I was there in orbit as the fighting raged and even though I am not a military commander of any ability I could see that the command of the Caldari Navy was derelict in its duty to its pilots.
There were many moments in the engagement that the Caldari Navy could have beaten the Federation Navy but, for whatever reasons, Admiral Visera Yanala did -not- order these moments to be exploited.
This is the correct decision by State Executor Tibus Heth. He needs to purge the Caldari Navy of its incompetent commanders who are hiding behind unearned decorations and false tales of bravery. How was the State Executor to know of Admiral Visera's incompetency when it comes to actual fleet engagements? He was blinded, as all were in the Caladari State, by the on-going lies, deceptions, and exaggerations of the Caldari Navy.
This seems to be a systemic and fatal situation that State Executor Tibus Heth must deal with. It is now clear that the Caldari Navy makes up its accolades and promotes not based on merit but based on corruption.
If my voice were to be heard I would suggest that he takes full control of the Caldari Navy upon himself and purges the highest "officers" in the Navy to cleanse it of all those who should never have made it to command positions.
If the Caldari State is to survive these coming days and protect Caldari Prime in support of the troops on the ground drastic measures must be taken in support of the State.
Glory to the Caldari State and to the embodiment of its greatness: State Executor Tibus Heth. |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
790
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Not sure if serious... ~Malcolm Khross
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Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:04:00 -
[47] - Quote
*shrugs* Eh this is to be expected. Angry defiant speeches about the loss and will do an investigation into why it happened. I am not familiar with Caldari culture at all, but sounds pretty typical to me. The media always talking about how one looks. Of course he looks ill; the Caldari just suffered a major defeat. Great stress can make anyone look ill.
If the Caldari people respond well to the speech, then it was a good one.
Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron Gallente Federation Engineering, research, business student at the prestigious Eve University. Owner of Swiftly Processing.-áA private mining, refining and trading business. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
751
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Scherezad-haani, a comment, if I may.
While one may contend that the members of the CEP are the most able, the question in turn is where their ability lies. After all, particular skills are needed for that role which would be of no use elsewhere. What use does a dockworker have for political acumen? What use does an executive have for the ability to operate heavy machinery? This is, I suppose, one of the reasons why we revere those who rise to great power from humble backgrounds, as Heth. Of course, that Heth is losing much of his political power is clear -- and so will follow a loss of reverence. I digress.
To return to the topic at hand, the political acumen that makes the members of the CEP so able also enables them to see political reality. Consider Heth's great popularity with the masses these past few years. If the members of the Board had opposed his actions, their corporation, their workforce would have suffered greatly, and so they may have continued to serve Heth despite his increasing militancy, the increasing risk to the State as a whole.
You may revere the Executives as the most able -- but remember that they are still men, that they are still subject to the same fears and worries as the rest of us.
I agree. |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
751
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:06:00 -
[49] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:That is not the impression of affairs various correspondence with individuals has given me, Scherezad.
When one presses a stone into the sand, the impression is not at all the same thing as the stone. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
413
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:08:00 -
[50] - Quote
Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron wrote:*shrugs* Eh this is to be expected. Angry defiant speeches about the loss and will do an investigation into why it happened. I am not familiar with Caldari culture at all, but sounds pretty typical to me. The media always talking about how one looks. Of course he looks ill; the Caldari just suffered a major defeat. Great stress can make anyone look ill.
If the Caldari people respond well to the speech, then it was a good one.
Sir, if you take Heth's 'investigations' and fist pounding as 'typical' I suggest you seek education from one of the fine examples of Caldari that frequent these forums. Please don't mistake Heth emotional responses and fruitless inquiries as the norm for how Caldari society works. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2346
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:When one presses a stone into the sand, the impression is not at all the same thing as the stone. The instructive value of metaphors and proverbs only stretches so far. Mane 614
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Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
752
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:26:00 -
[52] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Scherezad wrote:When one presses a stone into the sand, the impression is not at all the same thing as the stone. The instructive value of metaphors and proverbs only stretches so far.
I apologize, sir. I thought it was rather clear. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, or perhaps my own limitations. I will try again, more plainly.
The impression one gets from talking to individuals has no bearing on reality.
or, perhaps more cleanly,
The plural of anecdote is not data. |
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
69
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 19:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
If one wants to know where the rot within the Navy came from, one only needs to look to the CPD. The politicization of the military is a threat not only to our readiness, but to the soul of the Navy itself. It is time to burn out the infected growth and leave only those who remember the true mission of the Navy. An end to the reign of Hethist sycophants and undisciplined thugs, and renewed professionalism and attention to the chain of command, which most decidedly does not end with the false office of the "Executor."
The Chief Executive Panel's time is running out. They must act now, before Heth leaves the body of the State so riddled with gangrene that it cannot survive. |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
792
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:30:00 -
[54] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:They always... vote... but their votes are insignificant. The State do not have to ask for some sort of megalomaniac galactic federation to access our assets. We just come and take what is ours, well, with exception of Ishukone. We don't need federal... "recognition". They can eat it with our torpedoes!
And without sending the Navy into a suicide charge across the border, how exactly do you propose they do that?
This is why I'm glad mindsets like yours are a firm minority Kim, if people took you seriously we'd be mourning even more unnecessary deaths. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2520
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:36:00 -
[55] - Quote
I find it ironic that a state giving so much power to corporations, and the corporations having the ability to negotiate with anybody they want, would attempt to have "one man" be the head honcho.
Now look at the results.
The whole thing is dumb. And frankly, the citizens of Caldari never got the chance to realize that their destiny was in their hands all along. They lost that, on their own, and suffered under it, and put up with Gallente-owned corporations on their own.
And the racism of Heth was the only thing to uplift them? Their identity based on hate and waging war?
When has that ever worked? Even the Amarr and Minmatar are careful not to let base ideals get the best of them, even if they have the elements for it.
I hope to see an end to this pointless war.
Treason? The empires are working as intended. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
644
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:03:00 -
[56] - Quote
Scherezad wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Scherezad wrote:When one presses a stone into the sand, the impression is not at all the same thing as the stone. The instructive value of metaphors and proverbs only stretches so far. I apologize, sir. I thought it was rather clear. Perhaps it is a cultural thing, or perhaps my own limitations. I will try again, more plainly. The impression one gets from talking to individuals has no bearing on reality. or, perhaps more cleanly, The plural of anecdote is not data.
One might also say that even when a mask is formed by pressing clay against the face, only the inside of the mask reveals the true face of the wearer, not the outside.
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Lucas Raholan
Agenda Industries
61
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 22:22:00 -
[57] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Diana Kim wrote:They always... vote... but their votes are insignificant. The State do not have to ask for some sort of megalomaniac galactic federation to access our assets. We just come and take what is ours, well, with exception of Ishukone. We don't need federal... "recognition". They can eat it with our torpedoes! And without sending the Navy into a suicide charge across the border, how exactly do you propose they do that? This is why I'm glad mindsets like yours are a firm minority Kim, if people took you seriously we'd be mourning even more unnecessary deaths.
Glad as I am Mr Marellus, mindsets like this may be truly lost to the light. And lead to actions that would leave more mothers, wife's and children without loved ones for unnecessary violence with no accomplishment or gain.
I am just an outsider but I think the Caldari must accept that they have been resoundingly defeated on the field of combat and that the only way now to regain any access to there spiritual and ancestral homeworld is to follow in the footstep of Reppola.
Diana Kim says it is the Caldari way to take what it wants with force, the Amarr once thought this true many years ago, and we are still reeling from the aftermath of that ideology which eventually brought near ruin to us as a society. That way is not the way of the Caldari nor one I would wish for them to go down.
'To serve the people before you serve yourself' I feel this phrase sums up what many Caldari feel about themselves. Reppola has put the needs of the Caldari on Caldari Prime before what ever political ramifications towards himself he will imbue from Heth, while Heth only seeks to maintain his own power even if it means betraying those who fought bravely to the end in defense of the State despite the knowledge they would likely lose.
I ask, which of the two above most sums up that phrase. Because I wouldn't pick Heth.
I'm secretly a unicorn that Sh**ts fairy dust and sings all day-á |
Gustav Kleist
Spline Inc. v3.14
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 00:36:00 -
[58] - Quote
The one thing that can be seen as treason here is the backstabbing of the Navy Command by the Executor. When one assigns an officer to a command, one must take care to have collected sufficient intelligence, provide a clear set of objectives and rules of engagement, as well as to clarify up to what point the forces in question are expendable, if they are at all.
The destruction of Admiral Yanala's command might have been avoided, if sufficient freedom of action had been given to the Admiral to make other arrangements, like moving some of her capital assets to threaten a strike on Luminaire proper if CN Shiigeru was attacked, or having a back-up capital force on stand-by at Kassigainen, or many other things. None of which were prepared. Instead, it looks very much as if the 37th Squadron of the Kimotoro Fleet was placed around CN Shiigeru like an afterthought.
Now that might be "simple'' incompetence on a military level. However, given the fact that the Executor has such a centralized control on Caldari operational "planning" (however I loathe to use this word presently) and that he assigned ADM. Yanala to this command implies, affirms and underlines that the ultimate command responsibility is his.
In the old days, he would already have had his last cup of tea. We have fallen very far indeed if we allow him to "investigate" the officers he sent into certain death. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1227
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 01:36:00 -
[59] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:And the racism of Heth was the only thing to uplift them? Their identity based on hate and waging war? When has that ever worked?
Actually it once created an entire nation.
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Even the Amarr and Minmatar are careful not to let base ideals get the best of them, even if they have the elements for it.
If you're ever looking for some cheap salvage there's still plenty of station debris floating around at Yulai.
Live Events are neither. |
Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
181
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 02:15:00 -
[60] - Quote
So, park a Titan above the KK peaks, and then blame the Gallente when they take it down?
Quality logic right there.
In other news, I shot a bunch of mining barges that happened to be in the way between my guns and the chunk of ice behind them. Those stupid miners should watch where they park their hulks! |
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