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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
650
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Posted - 2013.03.28 06:27:00 -
[61] - Quote
Gustav Kleist wrote:The one thing that can be seen as treason here is the backstabbing of the Navy Command by the Executor. When one assigns an officer to a command, one must take care to have collected sufficient intelligence, provide a clear set of objectives and rules of engagement, as well as to clarify up to what point the forces in question are expendable, if they are at all.
The destruction of Admiral Yanala's command might have been avoided, if sufficient freedom of action had been given to the Admiral to make other arrangements, like moving some of her capital assets to threaten a strike on Luminaire proper if CN Shiigeru was attacked, or having a back-up capital force on stand-by at Kassigainen, or many other things. None of which were prepared. Instead, it looks very much as if the 37th Squadron of the Kimotoro Fleet was placed around CN Shiigeru like an afterthought.
Now that might be "simple'' incompetence on a military level. However, given the fact that the Executor has such a centralized control on Caldari operational "planning" (however I loathe to use this word presently) and that he assigned ADM. Yanala to this command implies, affirms and underlines that the ultimate command responsibility is his.
In the old days, he would already have had his last cup of tea. We have fallen very far indeed if we allow him to "investigate" the officers he sent into certain death.
I do not think that there WAS a viable tactic that the Admiral could have followed. Once the FN decided it was willing to accept the losses (and they were heavy) the Shiigeru was doomed. If she'd split her force to threaten Gallente Prime then she would simply have been defeated in detail. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1374
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Posted - 2013.03.28 07:03:00 -
[62] - Quote
Gustav Kleist wrote: In the old days, he would already have had his last cup of tea. We have fallen very far indeed if we allow him to "investigate" the officers he sent into certain death.
Shosho Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Diplomat ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Gustav Kleist
Spline Inc. v3.14
3
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Posted - 2013.03.28 12:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
There are always options, Tuulinen-haan. For instance, why was CN Shiigeru assigned in the mission of low-orbit bombardment in the first place? Orbital strikes with capital-class weapons are hardly precise enough to qualify as surgical, being more akin to saturation bombardment. If that was what was required by the ground forces as orbital support, one wonders why the task was not assigned to a couple of Phoenix-class dreadnoughts. Their firepower would equal that of CN Shiigeru, and the troop projection capability should be quite sufficient, given that a dreadnought can carry between one or two divisions, depending of their being mechanized or infantry ones.
The presence of CN Shiigeru in that mission spot instead suggests that she was chosen for a capability the other ships in her squadron did not had, namely the Oblivion-type superweapon, and it can be safely presumed that it was intended to be used. Even more safely, we can assume that this was part of a set of the Executor's instructions, given that no Fleet Admiral would consider glassing the Homeworld on his own initiative.
However, we all can imagine what the results would have been, had it been fired at Caldari Prime. I do not believe there's any human or capsuleer with any shred of ethics who was not relieved when Admiral Yanala did not activate Oblivion. I will not attempt to discern her reasons, whether hesitation, last-moment doubt, or premeditated act. I can only thank the ancestors that she held her fire.
Maybe the battle would have turned differently had CN Shiigeru assisted her squadron in the fight against the FN instead of being primed for orbital strikes. But that's only one possible scenario. Undoubtedly the squadron's command staff had thought of other alternatives, even better than this one probably, given their superior knowledge of the situation.
Certainly, the 37th Squadron did inflict murderous losses on the enemy. Those are not the matter however. What is important here, is that we saw essential Caldari Navy assets used (and lost) in non-optimal manner at the command of a single person. And to add insult to injury, this person announces an "investigation". How convenient. |
Astroyka
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
143
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Posted - 2013.03.28 13:06:00 -
[64] - Quote
Gustav Kleist wrote:And to add insult to injury, this person announces an "investigation". How convenient.
Maybe the investigation is to why the Admiral didn't fire the DD! Maybe that was Heth's direct order that was disobeyed. Only time will tell.
Astroyka - A Mirkur Draug'Tyr pilot, fighting against slavery in New Eden www.astroyka.net GÖÑ proud EvE fansites member GÖÑ |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:08:00 -
[65] - Quote
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote: Technically, the Executor serves at the discretion of the Chief Executive Panel and its members within a specific mandate. It would be a grievous misconception to believe that the situation is the reverse. Perhaps to use your analogy, an Executor that starts to insult the members of the CEP may just find themselves facing unforeseen consequences if, in forgetting just who it is that preserves their power, decides to call decisions to account.
I don't think that spreading my example of insulting janitor to members of CEP is a good idea. At least because I have no heard (yet?) about the way meritocracy regulates insulting. Tibus Heth, who takes a position of Executor in CPD also takes his place in CEP among other megacorporation CEOs. In case of "insulting" or other conflict between members of CEP that they can't solve themselves, there is CBT.
Quinzel Nikulainen wrote: Apparently, Diana Kim does not understand even this.
Quinzel Nikulainen, you just showed yourself to me as an ignorant and disgusting person. You have no idea what I do understand and what I do not. I would prefer to just shot you instead of talking to you.
Makoto Priano wrote: If Heth moves against Reppola, it will serve to me as validation of the Executor's overreach. He would punish the one man working on behalf of the Caldari on Caldari Prime, the one man trying to do some good in this whole forsaken mess.
I guess if Heth moves against Reppola, it won't be Heth alone, but all other megacorporate CEOs (maybe with exclusion of Hyasoda). Because lately Ishukone has been acting against everyone else, and this can lead to everyone else act against Ishukone. Of course I see that the Executor will initiate this, but for presenting the case in Tribunal, support of all other CEOs will be invaluable. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:17:00 -
[66] - Quote
Gustav Kleist wrote:The one thing that can be seen as treason here is the backstabbing of the Navy Command by the Executor. When one assigns an officer to a command, one must take care to have collected sufficient intelligence, provide a clear set of objectives and rules of engagement, as well as to clarify up to what point the forces in question are expendable, if they are at all. I know only that the investigation has been initiated. I want to know myself results too. If you say words like "backstabbing" and "treason", then you must already have results of this investigation. Please do share your knowledge with us.
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Liuni Kalthis
Alexylva Paradox
12
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Posted - 2013.03.28 15:34:00 -
[67] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Gustav Kleist wrote:The one thing that can be seen as treason here is the backstabbing of the Navy Command by the Executor. When one assigns an officer to a command, one must take care to have collected sufficient intelligence, provide a clear set of objectives and rules of engagement, as well as to clarify up to what point the forces in question are expendable, if they are at all. I know only that the investigation has been initiated. I want to know myself results too. If you say words like "backstabbing" and "treason", then you must already have results of this investigation. Please do share your knowledge with us.
The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty. |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 15:58:00 -
[68] - Quote
Lucas Raholan wrote: 'To serve the people before you serve yourself' I feel this phrase sums up what many Caldari feel about themselves. Reppola has put the needs of the Caldari on Caldari Prime before what ever political ramifications towards himself he will imbue from Heth, while Heth only seeks to maintain his own power even if it means betraying those who fought bravely to the end in defense of the State despite the knowledge they would likely lose.
I ask, which of the two above most sums up that phrase. Because I wouldn't pick Heth.
You are incredibly naive if you do not think that Reppola is serving his own interests first by using this terrible situation in an attempt for political gain. Reppola is setting the stage for a revolt against the rightful leader of the Caldari State. I suppose I should not be surprised that this comes from an Amarr.
Reppola is campaigning to sway the naive and innocent into sedition against the Caldari State. He is intriguing with the enemy of the Caldari State and who knows how many "promises" he made to the Gallente for direct access to Caldari Prime.
What amazes me, as an impartial observer, is how this blatant act against the leadership of the Caldari State is applauded and welcomed all because of what? Four jump freighters of "relief" supplies? Do we even know if there were relief supplies on board or is this just taking the good Reppola at face value?
You, who as a capsuleer, slaughter hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions of lives in space when you blow up battleships are concerned about some on Caldari Prime? I find that sentiment to be highly suspect or perhaps this is how you try to atone for the death that you have caused?
The Caldari State must be strong and the strength of Heth is what keeps it together. Reppola is attempting to destroy the Caldari State and is trying to incite rebellion. Who stands for the people should the Caldari State descends into in-fighting and open rebellion? If Reppola cared about the people and put them first he would be working with Heth towards resolving this situation instead of sowing the seeds of dissent and destruction.
How many will die because of Reppola's politics?
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
Liuni Kalthis wrote: The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty.
The fact is, that the citizens were killed only because of gallente attack on blockading force. They didn't die from Caldari guns.
Gallenteans commited the hugest atrocity and mistake in their life. They will pay. |
Liuni Kalthis
Alexylva Paradox
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:04:00 -
[70] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Liuni Kalthis wrote: The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty.
The fact is, that the citizens were killed only because of gallente attack on blockading force. They didn't die from Caldari guns. Gallenteans commited the hugest atrocity and mistake in their life. They will pay.
For blowing up a Titan pointing a gun at a population...that had orders to fire. I don't understand your logic, even police fire first when the offending party pulls a gun and points it at an innocent. |
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
28
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Posted - 2013.03.28 16:10:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ms. Kim; the last time you threatened retribution to those who provoked you, I then provoked you. Do you know when I can expect you to come knocking on my door?
Fractal Muse; you speak like a hardened Provist. I'm curious if you've ever worked on behalf of the State. What was your rank in the State Protectorate, if you've assisted us in Black Rise? Failing that, which corporations have you served on behalf of?
For all of the saber rattling we're getting in this discussion, I'd love to see these people act on all of their determination. Even if I disagree heartily with them, well-- take to action, brave pilots! You are, after all, immortal. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
651
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
Liuni Kalthis wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Liuni Kalthis wrote: The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty.
The fact is, that the citizens were killed only because of gallente attack on blockading force. They didn't die from Caldari guns. Gallenteans commited the hugest atrocity and mistake in their life. They will pay. For blowing up a Titan pointing a gun at a population...that had orders to fire. I don't understand your logic, even police fire first when the offending party pulls a gun and points it at an innocent.
What if a law-abiding citizen simply states loudly that he has acquired a gun for self-defence and then doesn't use that gun offensively for FIVE years?
What does that citizen have the right to do if another citizen kicks in the door of his house? |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
244
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:21:00 -
[73] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote: Fractal Muse; you speak like a hardened Provist. I'm curious if you've ever worked on behalf of the State. What was your rank in the State Protectorate, if you've assisted us in Black Rise? Failing that, which corporations have you served on behalf of?
No, I have not worked on behalf of the State.
I am just an observer of these events with the same vested interest that all of us have in the political events in this region of space. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:21:00 -
[74] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:Ms. Kim; the last time you threatened retribution to those who provoked you, I then provoked you. Do you know when I can expect you to come knocking on my door? Do you work for gallentes? Or a traitor to the State?
I would like to clarify one moment. I can respond harshly when being provoked, and it can end ugly if it was in space or personal. However, I do not allow myself to have personal enemies or wage personal vendettas. The only reason for me to break my schedule for looking for you for dispatching will be serving interests of the State or direct order. |
Liuni Kalthis
Alexylva Paradox
12
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:27:00 -
[75] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Liuni Kalthis wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Liuni Kalthis wrote: The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty.
The fact is, that the citizens were killed only because of gallente attack on blockading force. They didn't die from Caldari guns. Gallenteans commited the hugest atrocity and mistake in their life. They will pay. For blowing up a Titan pointing a gun at a population...that had orders to fire. I don't understand your logic, even police fire first when the offending party pulls a gun and points it at an innocent. What if a law-abiding citizen simply states loudly that he has acquired a gun for self-defence and then doesn't use that gun offensively for FIVE years? What does that citizen have the right to do if another citizen kicks in the door of his house?
Most governments don't allow a citizen to have a gun that can kill millions; and even with us we are on a leash due to CONCORD. |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
28
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:32:00 -
[76] - Quote
Fractal Muse; so, as someone said, an agent provocateur.
Diana Kim; your dedication to the State is commendable. Your frequent threats and lack of follow-through is not. Please. If you are going to threaten retribution, then execute on that threat. An empty threat is a laughable thing. A string of empty threats makes the threatener laughable. |
Gustav Kleist
Spline Inc. v3.14
3
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:39:00 -
[77] - Quote
Kim-haani, when an executive orders the officers he assigned on a command to be investigated, and does so publicly, while the State is at war, that can only be detrimental to the morale of the armed forces. By announcing this investigation, the Executor flatly expressed a lack of confidence in the Navy. A Navy that gave a magnificent fight indeed. Ultimately, he should be taking responsibility for the defeat over Caldari Prime, instead of seeking scapegoats. |
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
76
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:46:00 -
[78] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:I guess if Heth moves against Reppola, it won't be Heth alone, but all other megacorporate CEOs (maybe with exclusion of Hyasoda). Because lately Ishukone has been acting against everyone else, and this can lead to everyone else act against Ishukone. Of course I see that the Executor will initiate this, but for presenting the case in Tribunal, support of all other CEOs will be invaluable.
If you think the other members of the CEP will join Heth in extreme sanction against Ishukone, you are even more delusional than I thought you were. at the very least, Hyasyoda will not go along with such madness, and I find it hard to believe any of the Practicals will either. Considering their relative quiet on the matter, I would not count on the support of Lai Dai or Wiyrkomi either. And if you think Heth has a chance in hell of a case against Ishukone in the Tribunal, you clearly haven't been paying attention. The only way the CPD has ever been able to "win" a case in the CBT has been to run them over with illegal "executive orders" and other nonsense, and I suspect -- or at least hope -- that the other members of the CEP are getting quite tired of putting up with that idiocy. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 16:52:00 -
[79] - Quote
Liuni Kalthis wrote: Most governments don't allow a citizen to have a gun that can kill millions; and even with us we are on a leash due to CONCORD.
Guns don't kill peoples. Others peoples do.
Makoto Priano wrote: If you are going to threaten retribution, then execute on that threat. Could you please make more direct request (with reference please), so I will look onto it, if I missed accidentally what was on my schedule.
Gustav Kleist wrote:Kim-haani, when an executive orders the officers he assigned on a command to be investigated, and does so publicly, while the State is at war, that can only be detrimental to the morale of the armed forces. By announcing this investigation, the Executor flatly expressed a lack of confidence in the Navy. A Navy that gave a magnificent fight indeed. Ultimately, he should be taking responsibility for the defeat over Caldari Prime, instead of seeking scapegoats. Facts, please. And it was OUR responsibility for defeat over Caldari Prime, definitely not Executor's. For what happened there it is we and Navy who must be questioned. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
388
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 17:04:00 -
[80] - Quote
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:you are even more delusional than I thought you were. Speaking about delusions, the words of your, that I just heard, are not words of loyal citizen. So far I haven't heard any of major megacorporations (Ishukone aside, Hyasoda under question) who would not support Executor's decision.
Do you have any facts to back your words or refute my? I mean, real facts, not mushrooms.
Tibus Heth made so much for Caldari citizens, that no other CEO ever did before. Both peoples of different corporations and Navy on his side. Why a loyal citizen could not be on his side? Can you tell us?
And, if I imagine your situation correct, I can even understand you. Of course, being deprived of your former position during reforms is a serios offence and I can feel your anger. But think about this, in the end it happened the State to become strong. It is not only Heth's deed, it is all our deed. And you still can be helpful to the State if you take another position, that requires your real skills, but not connections. Of course if will be hard and it will require work, but it will be fair.
On other hand, you can always run to lick gallente boots and 'vote' against us. But remember this: one vote means nothing. |
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Gustav Kleist
Spline Inc. v3.14
8
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Posted - 2013.03.28 17:07:00 -
[81] - Quote
Those ARE facts, Kim-haani. Since the Executor assumed so readily the "direction" of the State, it is only fitting that he assumes the responsibilities. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
653
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 18:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Svetlana Scarlet wrote: If you think the other members of the CEP will join Heth in extreme sanction against Ishukone, you are even more delusional than I thought you were.
I can confirm that although Pyre-Falcon was operating under contract to Ishukone for the operation, we did so at the direct behest of the CEP, which sought our cooperation. We were proud to cease and desist all other contracts to allow us to give our full attention to Ishukone's CEP-sponsored relief effort.
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Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
37
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Posted - 2013.03.28 19:07:00 -
[83] - Quote
By the way, Tuulinen-haan, if you could provide me the name of your Ishukone contact point, it would be greatly appreciated. I fear my contacts are involved in day-to-day operations, and have limited executive power. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
659
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:43:00 -
[84] - Quote
Makoto Priano wrote:By the way, Tuulinen-haan, if you could provide me the name of your Ishukone contact point, it would be greatly appreciated. I fear my contacts are involved in day-to-day operations, and have limited executive power.
I'll see what I can do, Priano-haani. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
265
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 20:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:[quote=Lucas Raholan]
You, who as a capsuleer, slaughter hundreds, thousands, perhaps even millions of lives in space when you blow up battleships are concerned about some on Caldari Prime? I find that sentiment to be highly suspect or perhaps this is how you try to atone for the death that you have caused? I don't know about the rest of you, but my XO doesn't have my ships crewed by civilians. A trained crewman who receives wages to serve on board a combat vessel is not the same thing as a civilian on the surface of a planet caught in the crossfire during a war.
Quote: How many will die because of Reppola's politics?
Since he's sending humanitarian aid, I suspect that will be a negative number.
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Toluijin Chagangan
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
54
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 21:53:00 -
[86] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Liuni Kalthis wrote:Diana Kim wrote:Liuni Kalthis wrote: The order to use a planet ruining weapon on your State's own world with Caldari citizens on it; if that isn't treason I don't know what is. I didn't know the Caldari sacrificed citizens so readily if it isn't considered a breach of leadership and loyalty.
The fact is, that the citizens were killed only because of gallente attack on blockading force. They didn't die from Caldari guns. Gallenteans commited the hugest atrocity and mistake in their life. They will pay. For blowing up a Titan pointing a gun at a population...that had orders to fire. I don't understand your logic, even police fire first when the offending party pulls a gun and points it at an innocent. What if a law-abiding citizen simply states loudly that he has acquired a gun for self-defence and then doesn't use that gun offensively for FIVE years? What does that citizen have the right to do if another citizen kicks in the door of his house?
Lets continue your analogy here Pieter.
If he spends that entire five years pointing that gun at the heads of his wife and children, and announcing that if anyone comes into his house he will fire.
then yes, the police are likely to use trained snipers to remove him as a threat to his family.
This was the situation on Caldari prime.
I have recently posted in the thread 'let it go'. Read my idea, and please, comment on it. I feel it is a possible solution to this situation. It will not give anyone all that they want, but compromise is required.
Seven Tribes. One Matari People.
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Devils Embrace
Nova Ops Panda Cave
51
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:31:00 -
[87] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:I cannot help but feel some level of sympathy for the Caldari in this situation. We too lost our homeworld, and we too came back later and retook it. Why are the Caldari being denied sovereign control over the planet of their origin? The Gallente have settled countless temperate worlds. What do they have to lose, other than what appears to this outsider as bragging rights, by allowing the Caldari to claim Caldari Prime as their own? The Gallente recognized our own ties to our home planet. I ask that they consider doing the same for the Caldari, who once shared the Luminaire system with them.
When pride grows larger than respect and wisdom, divisions form and wars are fought.
Would you allow someone to build a fort in your backyard and live there? Someone hostile and who doesn't like you? It's like they usually say about fantasy MMO's and men playing female characters: "If I'm going to spend alot of time watching this character, it might as well have a good looking ass". |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
660
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 22:53:00 -
[88] - Quote
Devils Embrace wrote:Streya Jormagdnir wrote:I cannot help but feel some level of sympathy for the Caldari in this situation. We too lost our homeworld, and we too came back later and retook it. Why are the Caldari being denied sovereign control over the planet of their origin? The Gallente have settled countless temperate worlds. What do they have to lose, other than what appears to this outsider as bragging rights, by allowing the Caldari to claim Caldari Prime as their own? The Gallente recognized our own ties to our home planet. I ask that they consider doing the same for the Caldari, who once shared the Luminaire system with them.
When pride grows larger than respect and wisdom, divisions form and wars are fought. Would you allow someone to build a fort in your backyard and live there? Someone hostile and who doesn't like you?
Depends. Is your enormous backyard owned by a host of different people? Are they building that fort on their own land? |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
428
|
Posted - 2013.03.28 23:12:00 -
[89] - Quote
Devils Embrace wrote:
Would you allow someone to build a fort in your backyard and live there? Someone hostile and who doesn't like you?
Guess you shouldn't have built your yard around our house then aye? joking aside, just because your yard surrounds our house doesn't give you the right to claim our home because we have to tread across the lawn. As neighbors we have to get along or else we're just going to trash the neighborhood, but it certainly won't help endear us to you if you keep trying bulldoze our home just so you can feel better about not having tread marks in your grass. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
39
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Posted - 2013.03.28 23:37:00 -
[90] - Quote
You know, despite being stretched to an almost absurd point, the yard analogy actually continued to hold. I'm impressed! |
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