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Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis
345
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Posted - 2013.03.27 05:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is theory, and I pose my thoughts for discussion. I hope you all take consideration, or present evidence to the contrary. I will keep it brief and to the point.
- No immediate response from Heth
- Heth has made no attempt to bring to his favour. My initial thoughts were Heth had actually alot to gain with the Caldari populous.
- Heth has denounced the actions of the fleet by issuing a formal investigation
- Ishukone was able to, considering the mire that politics is between Caldari and Gallente, get access with a full freighter, a straight shot access from Caldari space to a contested planet in home system.
So if we look, I can see three possibilities at the time.
- The admiral and fleet acted completely independent and are solely responsible
- Heth is responsible, but is acting extremely counter to his usual stance to undermine Ishukone or for some other purpose
- Ishukone is responsible and using nobility as a way to gain favour with the Gallente empire and undermine Heth at the same time
Please add all your comments, and any other points that you may have on the situation here. I will also try to keep a listing of evidence or points of interest here as well. So try to keep what you are saying simple. Lets get to the truth! |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2337
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Posted - 2013.03.27 10:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
I think it's ignoble in the extreme to accuse Ishukone of "profiting" from this tragedy. No-one has profited from this tragedy - perhaps, tired of war, our nations might use it as an impetus to forge something better than the poisonous, bitter conflict that exists between our peoples, but to suggest that Ishukone are doing what they're doing out of cynical political pragmatism is a touch beyond the pale. As for Ishukone somehow being responsible for the events above Caldari Prime - well, the Provists and Ishukone have never been on good terms, and as far as far as 37th "Octopus" and Admiral Yanala are concerned, they were deep in the pocket of the Provists. They wouldn't make back-room deals with Ishukone. As for Ishukone itself, it's always vociferously opposed the deployment of the fleet and the Titan to Luminaire - secretly agitating for the deployment of even more of the State's already thinly-stretched military assets would be completely out of character for them.
It should be noted, also, that Ishukone deployed four jump freighters loaded to the brim with emergency supplies at their own expense, and flew them into one of the core systems of a nation who they, through high-level membership in the Caldari State, are technically at war with. In terms of investment planning that's not a sound plan for getting a quick ROI, especially if something went wrong and one or more of the freighters was lost to hostile action. Thankfully, they all got to their destination safely and the work of helping those affected by this debacle can begin in earnest, but I hardly think Ishukone will be recouping its deployment costs for this operation anytime soon. Mane 614
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Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
784
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Posted - 2013.03.27 10:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
It is not often I find myself in complete agreement with Ixiris.
The "party" to gain from these actions is the populace of Caldari Prime. ~Malcolm Khross
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
2338
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Posted - 2013.03.27 10:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Malcolm Khross wrote:It is not often I find myself in complete agreement with Ixiris. Talk to me more often. You might surprise yourself.
Malcolm Khross wrote:The "party" to gain from these actions is the populace of Caldari Prime. And it's the sort of "gain" they most likely wish they never had need for in the first place, more's the pity. Mane 614
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Arista Shahni
Real Simple Construction
12
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Posted - 2013.03.27 16:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Admittedly as an outsider who has been in deepspce too long, the only thing I could garner from the newsfeed, his agitation throughout, etcetera... was the odd (albeit sickening) gut feeling that Heth was mad that the Titan didn't pull the trigger. I certainly hope this is not the case. There is no point in such a grand scale of loss-of-life when there are so many recloneable loyalists willing to watch their life scroll before their eyes so many times that the reels begin to scratch. "I was dreaming once, and I dreampt of a world where I was nothing more than a biological fitting; a slave to the machine and crew, instead of the other way around. Don't you wonder at how easy it would have been for this scenario to happen, instead of how it actually unfolded?" |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
625
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Posted - 2013.03.27 17:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Even the the Federation Navy reigned supreme in the battle, they were heavily damaged and suffered major losses. It was a Pyrrhic victory if you can even call it that.
Who is going to make all of those new ships and rearm them? Roden ship yards.
Who is going to profit from this reconstruction? President Roden.
It is very clear that a secondary if not primary motive of the Gallente making the first move was to boost Roden's funds and hopefully achieve a victory that he can boast about during elections. I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
238
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Posted - 2013.03.27 17:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Even the the Federation Navy reigned supreme in the battle, they were heavily damaged and suffered major losses. It was a Pyrrhic victory if you can even call it that.
Heavy losses?
I saw only one dreadnaught escape the battle grid when all was done.
That's 4 destroyed Nyx-class supercarriers. 24 destroyed Moros-class deadnaughts. 11 destroyed Thanatos-class carriers.
That's almost total annihilation of the fleet. One ship survived. One.
The only thing that the Federation Navy can claim is: The mission op was successful in its primary objective.
As for Ishukone: Ishukone is playing politics with people's lives.
The fact that Ishukone was able to gain access so easily suggests very close and seditious ties with the Gallente Federation. They are vying for public image but they may have overstepped by revealing how close they are to the Gallente Federation.
Will the Caldari People realize how dangerous Ishukone is? How deep is this betrayal? |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope Gallente Federation
625
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Posted - 2013.03.27 17:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:Fredfredbug4 wrote:Even the the Federation Navy reigned supreme in the battle, they were heavily damaged and suffered major losses. It was a Pyrrhic victory if you can even call it that.
Heavy losses? I saw only one dreadnaught escape the battle grid when all was done. That's 4 destroyed Nyx-class supercarriers. 24 destroyed Moros-class deadnaughts. 11 destroyed Thanatos-class carriers. That's almost total annihilation of the fleet. One ship survived. One.
Like I said, Pyrrhic victory. We succeeded in our primary objective, however we endured extreme losses to the point where if you look at pure numbers, we lost completely.
I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
792
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Posted - 2013.03.27 20:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Fred has nailed it on the head.
This war benefits three types of people, arms dealers, politicians and the Amarrian Empire. Two out of three can be pinpointed back to one man who is no doubt opening yet another bottle of rather fine alcohol and celebrating the gains in his political and financial wealth.
Ishukone are doing the right thing, and not out of personal gain either. Reppola has taken to heart the lessons Gariushi taught, altruism is well and alive in New Eden. They do not benefit from this, other than perhaps the gain of respect to those who recognise their selfless actions. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis
348
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Posted - 2013.03.27 20:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Fred has nailed it on the head.
This war benefits three types of people, arms dealers, politicians and the Amarrian Empire. Two out of three can be pinpointed back to one man who is no doubt opening yet another bottle of rather fine alcohol and celebrating the gains in his political and financial wealth.
Ishukone are doing the right thing, and not out of personal gain either. Reppola has taken to heart the lessons Gariushi taught, altruism is well and alive in New Eden. They do not benefit from this, other than perhaps the gain of respect to those who recognise their selfless actions.
That is the point I am trying to bring. There always is a gain to an action and that is what I am trying to pinpoint. Who had most to gain, who had lost the most, what has changed in the five year status quo? I posed the questions with gains, now what has changed?
Obviously the templar soldiers, but they are a factional constant. Not an ace in the hole to victory. In fact, if it was a matter of ground combat, the Gallente are less of an advantage since Caldari ground militia no longer need to reinforce.
Heth's health is another change. In which case, the only action would be for some final agenda or point of glory. Both of which seem non existent at this point.
Ishukone does have a gain, but that is not a blame. Would need more motive and opportunity for that. No... I think there might be something more insidious at work here. If somebody can cause the destruction of the State's most powerful and prominent vessel, what else are they capable of? |
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Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
69
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Posted - 2013.03.27 21:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:Will the Caldari People realize how dangerous Ishukone is? How deep is this betrayal?
About the same time a Minmatar agent-provocateur is credible as a commentator on Caldari politics -- shortly after the heat death of the universe. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
170
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Posted - 2013.03.27 21:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
You left out the mercenary's confession to being part of an Ishukone strike force to overthrow the Executor: "emergency supplies... inter(esting) alia."
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
644
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Posted - 2013.03.27 22:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have to correct one inaccuracy. I personally witnessed three (3) Moros class Dreadnaughts and one (1) Nyx class mothership quit the field intact.
Sadly, by the end of the battle, Concord was shielding the Federation Navy capitals from the wrath of the surviving capsuleer fleet. Equally sadly, many of the losses inflicted on the Federal Navy were inflicted by the same capsuleers who appear on the Shiigeru's killmail.
It seems many of our peers went to Caldari Prime in the spirit of destroying as many large ships as possible, not out of any higher ideology. |
iyammarrok
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
43
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Posted - 2013.03.27 22:12:00 -
[14] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote: 1) As for Ishukone: Ishukone is playing politics with people's lives.
2) The fact that Ishukone was able to gain access so easily suggests very close and seditious ties with the Gallente Federation. They are vying for public image but they may have overstepped by revealing how close they are to the Gallente Federation.
ok...
1) playing politics with people's lives... Firstly, how is sending a relief convoy to Caldari Prime doing this? unless you mean they are raising their political popularity by improving people's lives. in fact, the one person within the state who can be certainly blamed for 'playing politics' with people's lives is... Executor Heth.
2) Could it perhaps be that Ishukone have, for the past several years acted with honour regarding the Intaki system? Could it be that their peaceful endeavours there, while upholding every promise made to the state during the auction, have not infinged upon Intaki independence? well, not until Heth sent in his ground forces in clear violation of Ishukone corporate borders. Could it be that Ishukone and Mordu's legion have both spoken out about the Executors use of the Templis Dragonaur, a known terrorist group who are supposedly still Kill On Sight level criminals within the state?
Personally I think a mixture of these things would show that Ishukone, of all the Caldari megacorps, is willing to do what is right for the people of this cluster even against the wishes of a paranoid dilusional with ties to the Dragonaur.
Just a thought.
Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated. |
Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
263
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Posted - 2013.03.27 23:37:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:
Will the Caldari People realize how dangerous Ishukone is?
Oh I know, the people Ishukone saves might get back to being good, honest citizens. THE HORROR
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Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
170
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Posted - 2013.03.28 00:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:Fractal Muse wrote: Will the Caldari People realize how dangerous Ishukone is?
Oh I know, the people Ishukone saves might get back to being good, honest citizens. THE HORROR
Yes, of course, but honest citizens... of what?
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Xindi Kraid
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
263
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Posted - 2013.03.28 00:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
The Caldari citizens the Gallente dropped a titan on. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
170
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Posted - 2013.03.28 00:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Xindi Kraid wrote:The Caldari citizens the Gallente dropped a titan on.
Yes, of course.
And of course, again, citizen of *what*: a "sovereign Caldari planet in the heart of Gallente space;" or, a sovereign Gallente planet in the heart of Gallente space?
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
419
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Posted - 2013.03.28 00:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sovereign Caldari planet in the heart of Gallente space. Home still remains ours for the moment, even if we aren't in control of the spacelanes above it. People are severely taking Ishukone's request out of context or explicitly looking to spin it in a negative light. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam Amarr Empire
170
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Posted - 2013.03.28 01:00:00 -
[20] - Quote
Not to think like a scheming Amarrian witch, or anything, but I might be inclined to make a deal with a soft enemy to displace a hard one in return for an "autonomous" little planet I might call Home.
If you don't see that as a plausible scenario, well, best of luck to you. |
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Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
427
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Posted - 2013.03.28 01:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
I cannot see the future nor predict the outcome of the situation Ms. Noh. Foresight isn't a question at this point as I'm not discounting anything, merely refusing to feed into premature hysteria. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Markus Reese
Incertae Sedis
350
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:I cannot see the future nor predict the outcome of the situation Ms. Noh. Foresight isn't a question at this point as I'm not discounting anything, merely refusing to feed into premature hysteria.
There is hysteria, and then there is analysis. One must look at all the facts. Charisma can be a much more effective means of control than one of hysteria. Ishukone does not stand accused, but they still can be a potential suspect. They should be no more discounted then they are blamed. They did what any normal person and what many capsuleers had done. Either out of compassion or guilt, it doesnt matter. When the truth is found, then we can decide who are the righteous and who should be punished. |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
427
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
I believe we agree then Reese-haan, which is why I don't plan to make any judgments before more information is made available. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Gustav Kleist
Spline Inc. v3.14
10
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Posted - 2013.03.28 21:57:00 -
[24] - Quote
Impressive indeed. By choosing this course of action, Reppola-haan has shown extreme courage and mettle, as has Osmon-haan, who supported him. However, there is much sense in those actions, should one consider them carefully... They are eminently practical... |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
248
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Posted - 2013.03.29 14:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
Gustav Kleist wrote:Impressive indeed. By choosing this course of action, Reppola-haan has shown extreme courage and mettle, as has Osmon-haan, who supported him. However, there is much sense in those actions, should one consider them carefully... They are eminently practical... You, a graduate of the State War Academy, are claiming that someone who is revealing how close their ties are to the Gallente and openly betraying the Caldari State has "extreme courage and mettle?"
If this is so, why do you not take up arms against the Caldari State and fight for your new leader?
These actions are eminently political and I must congratulate Ishukone on its ability to create dissension and rebellion in many capsuleers who once called the Caldari State home.
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Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
828
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Posted - 2013.03.29 15:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote: You, a graduate of the State War Academy, are claiming that someone who is revealing how close their ties are to the Gallente and openly betraying the Caldari State has "extreme courage and mettle?"
I like the part where it's a betrayal of the State to possess human decency for those suffering. Seriously, it's my favorite part.
Fractal Muse wrote:These actions are eminently political and I must congratulate Ishukone on its ability to create dissension and rebellion in many capsuleers who once called the Caldari State home.
I'm also a fan of this part, no really I am.
Every post you have made indicates you know absolutely nothing about the Caldari and the Caldari State, you're an outsider that screams for Tibus Heth like a child crying for its parents and you place yourself in a position to dictate to us what it means to be Caldari and loyal to the State.
~Malcolm Khross
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