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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 13 post(s) |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
32
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Posted - 2013.04.04 19:54:00 -
[481] - Quote
sten mattson wrote:numbers:
both ships have the maximum amount of turrets (focused medium pulses) fitted with imperial navy multifrequency, 2 heat sinks , and the biggest flight of gallente drones they can carry in their bay (5 hobgoblins for the old , 5 hammerheads for the new)
old nomen: with drones: 521 dps at 6,8k+3,8 without drones: 422 dps
new nomen: with drones: 421 dps at 10,2k+3,8 without drones: 263 dps
my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25
discussion:
what i find weird in the case of the nomen is the flat 25% reduction in damage with drones , but 60% reduction without. If they intended the ship to be a kiter , the damage is abysmal , even with close range ammo (and only slightly above 200 dps at 30k with scorch). I also find it weird that for a ship that is supposed to use lazors , has drones represent more than 40% of its potential damage at close range) It is also not normal that a navy ship would be so ridiculously outgunned by its t1 counterpart.
the only good side of this change is the cap usage , that hasnt changed -despite the loss of the cap reduction bonus- and the range bonus, that doesnt help much at brawling range.
just to put it here: a -7,5% rof reduction per lvl equates to giving a 12% damage bonus per lvl. Giving the nomen only 5% dmg per lvl while taking away one turret is not enough, and boosting the drone bay does not enough to compensate for this loss of damage.
in order for the new nomen to match the old nomen in damage -drones included- the damage bonus needs to be close to 15% per lvl.
what can be done:
since i believe the idea of this change was to keep the cap usage the same but take away the capacitor usage bonus, i dont think it would be wise to add another turret but one way to do this would be to up the damage bonus to 10% per lvl , wich would mean only mean -33% turret damage reduction compared to the old nomen (only -10% with the drones).
EDIT: the numbers were without the damage rig, sorry Thank you for pointing out flaws like this to the proposed changes, it just underlines my point... I have no problem with the concept of the new NOmen being a kite ship, but it definately needs love for it to actually pull it off successfully. |
sten mattson
1st Praetorian Guard Curatores Veritatis Alliance
26
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Posted - 2013.04.04 20:52:00 -
[482] - Quote
Deerin wrote:sten mattson wrote:numbers:
my method to find the numbers for the new nomen: create a EFT char with all V except for ammar cruiser , which is at 0, then multiply the dps given by turrets (without drones ofc) with 1,25
Herein lies the error. %10 dmg per level = %50 => 1.5
lol stupid me. ignore my post then
IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!! |
Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
101
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Posted - 2013.04.05 03:23:00 -
[483] - Quote
we really dont need another amarr cruiser with a 3 mid layout. |
Crash Lander
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
39
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Posted - 2013.04.05 03:51:00 -
[484] - Quote
The RoF bonus on Omen Navy Issue made this a really fun ship. At level V Cruiser skill with Rapid Firing V this ship fires its pulse lasers like a non stop machine gun.
It also made it an excellent platform for quickly dispatching smaller targets as a RoF bonus minimizes damage overshoot at the expense of increased ammo usage.
Could you consider keeping the RoF bonus while keeping the DPS the same? Otherwise I'm going to miss this unique ship... |
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 13:12:00 -
[485] - Quote
So let's see...
Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.
Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.
I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.
What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill? |
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
60
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Posted - 2013.04.05 13:21:00 -
[486] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:So let's see...
Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.
Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.
I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.
What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?
how about the extra EHP and that exp radius is its anti frig defence like an inbuilt TP
P.S. conflag can only do 7.5km so for HAMs rage to do that range for a high damage close range ammo type is insane!!!!! 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium |
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance 24eme Legion Etrangere
69
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Posted - 2013.04.05 13:27:00 -
[487] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:So let's see...
Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.
Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.
I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.
What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill?
Am guessing you're posting from an alternate reality where math works different.
Navy caracal with rage hams....
337 dps with zero bcus
414 with one
557 with three
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Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2013.04.05 14:33:00 -
[488] - Quote
Templar Dane wrote:Johnson Oramara wrote:So let's see...
Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.
Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.
I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps but so far i don't see much point paying that much premium to get a little more shield hp.
What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill? Am guessing you're posting from an alternate reality where math works different. Navy caracal with rage hams.... 337 dps with zero bcus 414 with one 557 with three Oh yeah, i forgot it was rof but your math lacks the reload times. Anyway, still not that impressive. |
Open Graves
OMGROFLSTOMP Late Night Alliance
2
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Posted - 2013.04.05 18:48:00 -
[489] - Quote
Could we get the Navy versions of the Logi cruisers to stay logi ships and have a new set of Navy cruisers based on the other hulls like the Thorax, Rupture, Moa, and Maller hulls?
I think adding 8 new ships to the game would be very interesting. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
36
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Posted - 2013.04.05 18:52:00 -
[490] - Quote
Open Graves wrote:Could we get the Navy versions of the Logi cruisers to stay logi ships and have a new set of Navy cruisers based on the other hulls like the Thorax, Rupture, Moa, and Maller hulls?
I think adding 8 new ships to the game would be very interesting. This, I like, alot, especially since some of them, like the Scythe, are pretty **** poor. |
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Perihelion Olenard
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
146
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 20:51:00 -
[491] - Quote
Navy ships better be getting their costs reduced if they are not going to be much better than tech 1. I wear my sunglasses at night. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
36
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Posted - 2013.04.05 21:02:00 -
[492] - Quote
Perihelion Olenard wrote:Navy ships better be getting their costs reduced if they are not going to be much better than tech 1. That I agree with, since the biggest component to their costs are the BPs... speaking of which, why aren't BP costs part of the factors used to determine insurance values? |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1137
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 23:17:00 -
[493] - Quote
Will the Navy Faction Scythe, Augorer, Osprey, and Exequeror all have their LP cost brought up from 30k to 45k? Maybe get a blueprint variant as well? |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
303
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 07:01:00 -
[494] - Quote
The Omen Navy Issue goes from 8 equivalent turrets to 6. Why is everyone so ecstatic about it? It gains an optimal bonus, sure, but at the cost of losing a full quarter of its damage. Tradeoffs are tradeoffs I guess, but I liked it the way it was. |
Umega
Solis Mensa
148
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 07:24:00 -
[495] - Quote
5-5-5 on something that moves like an AF. Any vets of the current scythe know what I mean.. it's like comparing the mach to the rest of its same class in terms of overall mobility. Dual-prop + TD + 90 sig + one of fastest cruisers in game.. now able to completely utalize missiles, in omni fashion rather than only kin. HP buff too boot.. right...
Lord be praised! I honeslty don't care whats happening to the SFI after reading that. The stupidly broken ability of top end speed + missiles + TD is a wrecking ball of opponent frustration. The 90 sig on a cruiser (which is unchanged) isn't something to gloss over with this equation.
Nixor looks silly.. first thought, glass cannon droneboat. But that makes no sense for several reasons. Second thought.. poor man's Gila. Looks fun tho.
Nomen is going to be a sheer beast. That thing looks really scary actually.. it's going to obsolete a lot of ships me thinks, depending on where the price settles. It may become a fleet staple beyond FW.. yeah, I'm seeing that kind of potential.
Elephant in the room.. the ENI... -áUme-Pro Studios |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 07:42:00 -
[496] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:...I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps... By my calculations, which could be wrong: on average it will increase damage to Destroyers and Frigates by 33%.
The way I see it, which could be wrong: the rate of fire bonus equals a 33% increase in DPS and the Explosion radius adds another 33% increase in DPS against smaller ships. Add a web or two, and things are not going to be pleasant for smaller ships that get too close.
HAM Fury Explosion Radius = 180 Guided Missile Precision = 5 HAM Fury Explosion (effective) Radius = 135
Thrasher Signature Radius = 75 75/135 = 55.5% (Applied)
Slasher Signature Radius = 35 35/135 = 25.9% (Applied)
HAM Fury Explosion (effective after Explosion Radius Bonus) Radius = 101.25
Thrasher 75/101.5 = 73.9% (Applied)
Slasher 35/101.5 = 34.5% (Applied)
Trasher 73.9%/55.5% = 33% increase in applied damage Slasher 34.5%/25.9% = 33% increase in applied damage
Someone with better math skills will most likely correct my mistakes, but...
Don't underestimate the importance of the Explosion Radius Bonus.
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
17
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Posted - 2013.04.06 08:31:00 -
[497] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:So let's see...
Navy Caracal with HAM's has 305 dps and 16.9km range with rage. Goes 1521 m/s with mwd.
Caracal with HAM's + 2 lights has 308 dps and 25.3km range with rage. Goes 1881 m/s with mwd.
...
What is this niche that this thing is supposed to fill? Caracal is faster, 50% greater range, and two drones. Damage = 5 launcher * (25% damage + 1 Ballistic Control Systems) Effective = 7.5 launchers + two drones
The Navy Caracal is slower and have less range, plus no drones. It does have better Defenses. Damage = 6 Launchers * (25% rate of fire + 3 Ballistic control Systems) Effective = 12 Launchers + 33% Damage to smaller ships.
I would think he Navy Caracal role is to get in close and beat the crap out of smaller ships.
The Navy versions damage against Frigates and Destroyers will be on the order of 100% better.
All figures could be wrong.
|
Johnson Oramara
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 11:47:00 -
[498] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Johnson Oramara wrote:...I'm not too sure how much that explosion radius bonus helps... By my calculations, which could be wrong: on average it will increase damage to Destroyers and Frigates by 33%. The way I see it, which could be wrong: the rate of fire bonus equals a 33% increase in DPS and the Explosion radius adds another 33% increase in DPS against smaller ships. Add a web or two, and things are not going to be pleasant for smaller ships that get too close. HAM Fury Explosion Radius = 180 Guided Missile Precision = 5 HAM Fury Explosion (effective) Radius = 135 Thrasher Signature Radius = 75 75/135 = 55.5% (Applied) Slasher Signature Radius = 35 35/135 = 25.9% (Applied) HAM Fury Explosion (effective after Explosion Radius Bonus) Radius = 101.25 Thrasher 75/101.5 = 73.9% (Applied) Slasher 35/101.5 = 34.5% (Applied) Trasher 73.9%/55.5% = 33% increase in applied damage Slasher 34.5%/25.9% = 33% increase in applied damage Someone with better math skills will most likely correct my mistakes, but... Don't underestimate the importance of the Explosion Radius Bonus. Yes, it's important i understand that but i need to see some numbers that include speed factor also... those pesky frigs tend to be usually moving quite fast
Even then i don't see them hitting really anything with mwd on. Let's say a navy slicer is pointing and orbiting you at 18km with mwd on, there's nothing really you can do while every single other t1 and faction cruiser has atleast option for ecm drones... |
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
45
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Posted - 2013.04.06 12:12:00 -
[499] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Caracal is faster, 50% greater range, and two drones. Damage = 5 launcher * (25% damage + 1 Ballistic Control Systems) Effective = 7.5 launchers + two drones The Navy Caracal is slower and have less range, plus no drones. It does have better Defenses. Damage = 6 Launchers * (25% rate of fire + 3 Ballistic control Systems) Effective = 12 Launchers + 33% Damage to smaller ships. I would think he Navy Caracal role is to get in close and beat the crap out of smaller ships. The Navy versions damage against Frigates and Destroyers will be on the order of 100% better. All figures could be wrong. The effective launchers are 6.66 for the Caracal and 8 for the NCaracal |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 14:37:00 -
[500] - Quote
Sal Landry wrote: The effective launchers are 6.66 for the Caracal and 8 for the NCaracal
What are they if you include a single Ballistic Control for the standard Caracal and three for the Navy version?
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
712
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Posted - 2013.04.06 18:01:00 -
[501] - Quote
Umega wrote:5-5-5 on something that moves like an AF. Any vets of the current scythe know what I mean.. it's like comparing the mach to the rest of its same class in terms of overall mobility. Dual-prop + TD + 90 sig + one of fastest cruisers in game.. now able to completely utalize missiles, in omni fashion rather than only kin. HP buff too boot.. right...
HUSH
Stop spreading my plan.. Let the poor bastards do their shield tanks.
BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Bi-Mi Lansatha
Tactical Universal Research and Development Caldari Industrialist Association
17
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 18:58:00 -
[502] - Quote
Johnson Oramara wrote:Yes, it's important i understand that but i need to see some numbers that include speed factor also... those pesky frigs tend to be usually moving quite fast Even then i don't see them hitting really anything with mwd on. Let's say a navy slicer is pointing and orbiting you at 18km with mwd on, there's nothing really you can do while every single other t1 and faction cruiser has atleast option for ecm drones... You do have to 'grab' them... that is true.
Also, all the bonuses apply to Heavy Missiles also. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
1217
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 22:44:00 -
[503] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Will the Navy Faction Scythe, Augorer, Osprey, and Exequeror all have their LP cost brought up from 30k to 45k? Maybe get a blueprint variant as well? No, the better question is whether the LP cost of the VNI, ONI, SFI, and CNI be reduced to 30k? :D
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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1137
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 23:26:00 -
[504] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote:Will the Navy Faction Scythe, Augorer, Osprey, and Exequeror all have their LP cost brought up from 30k to 45k? Maybe get a blueprint variant as well? No, the better question is whether the LP cost of the VNI, ONI, SFI, and CNI be reduced to 30k? :D
I have 15 Navy Augs on the market in Amarr. Shhh! |
Soon Shin
Caucasian Culture Club Transmission Lost
212
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Posted - 2013.04.07 05:50:00 -
[505] - Quote
Seriously in all, why the **** would i bother flying a dam Omen Navy Issue if the zealot is going to be so much better than it.
Not to mention the Tech 1 Omen outdpses it. |
Takanuro
The Amarrian Expendables
22
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Posted - 2013.04.07 06:54:00 -
[506] - Quote
Quote:Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer. Cruiser skill bonuses: 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage 10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428) Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25) Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1) Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar Signature radius: 100(-12) Cargo capacity: 400(+150)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Navy Omen Attributes currently state that Armor is 3,013, if you are going to drop it 463 then it should be 2,550?
Taka.
Yes, we're going to die, but you're coming with us!
The Amarrian Expendables are Recruiting |
Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
595
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 07:58:00 -
[507] - Quote
Scythe Fleet Issue Is going to be horrible.
Nice balance. |
Din Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
28
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Posted - 2013.04.07 12:50:00 -
[508] - Quote
Caracal Navy Issue: Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting. Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 250(+2) / 0.465(+0.02) / 10810000(+1,000,000) / 6.97s(+0.92)
... so you made it a short range Cerb. Is this just to protect the niche of the missile destroyers because I was really happy with the anti-frig cruiser as is. |
Shadragk Spellbound
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.04.07 16:16:00 -
[509] - Quote
Please don't change the Omen Navy Issue. I love to fly this Ship solo and I love the design of the omen. It isthe most beautiful ship. I would be really disapointed, if this ship would be changed and need to switch to another ship. I might consider not to continue playing this game. When i started playing this game, the navy omen was the ship I wanted to fly. PLEASE DO NOT WEAKEN IT! |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
535
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Posted - 2013.04.07 20:00:00 -
[510] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Scythe Fleet Issue Is going to be horrible.
Nice balance. Except that it's gonna be awesome.
Nice balance.
See what I did there? It's an opinion not backed up by reason or facts. Try again |
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