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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
The Sinister
SKUNKWORKZ STRATEGIC SERVICES Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels
2
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Posted - 2013.03.30 12:51:00 -
[211] - Quote
Omnathious Deninard wrote:Looks ok, but I don't think the Talos needs the drones.
Ya I totally agree , out of the four Atack BCs the only one with drones is the Talos. So to be fair, either remove the drones from Talos or give drones to the Rest. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3257
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Posted - 2013.03.30 18:40:00 -
[212] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote: Ok but i did all the numbers for you already, the difference at 40-50km is about 60-70 dps depending on what range you're at.
Hey Grath,
I told you I'd poast some ~numbers~ for you after GDC. So here they are. First, I think it's important to realize that you claim I lost "4-5km of range". However, I will now counter with the assertion that I didn't have 4-5km of range to lose. Consider the current situation (excluding drones): - 32km: 370 DPS - 35km: 320 DPS - 40km: 243 DPS - 42km: 216 DPS - 48km: 144 DPS
I start my damage chart at 32km because going closer is generally a really bad idea. So let's look at how things will be (also excluding drones): - 32km: 281 DPS (-89 DPS / 25%) - 35km: 221 DPS (-99 DPS / 31%) - 40km: 145 DPS (-98 DPS / 40%) - 42km: 121 DPS (-95 DPS / 43%) - 48km: 70 DPS (-74 DPS / 51%)
So for all practical purposes I'm losing 40-50% of my DPS. Any questions?
-Liang
Ed: Remember, I generally do actually know what the **** I'm talking about. And I'm sure Kil2's Neutron Special will be "fine" (by some definition of the word)... but the Talos will no longer be an acceptable ship for my purposes. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
159
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Posted - 2013.03.30 23:26:00 -
[213] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Grath Telkin wrote: Ok but i did all the numbers for you already, the difference at 40-50km is about 60-70 dps depending on what range you're at.
Hey Grath, I told you I'd poast some ~numbers~ for you after GDC. So here they are. First, I think it's important to realize that you claim I lost "4-5km of range". However, I will now counter with the assertion that I didn't have 4-5km of range to lose. Consider the current situation (excluding drones): - 32km: 370 DPS - 35km: 320 DPS - 40km: 243 DPS - 42km: 216 DPS - 48km: 144 DPS I start my damage chart at 32km because going closer is generally a really bad idea. So let's look at how things will be (also excluding drones): - 32km: 281 DPS (-89 DPS / 25%) - 35km: 221 DPS (-99 DPS / 31%) - 40km: 145 DPS (-98 DPS / 40%) - 42km: 121 DPS (-95 DPS / 43%) - 48km: 70 DPS (-74 DPS / 51%) So for all practical purposes I'm losing 40-50% of my DPS. Any questions? -Liang Ed: Remember, I generally do actually know what the **** I'm talking about. And I'm sure Kil2's Neutron Special will be "fine" (by some definition of the word)... but the Talos will no longer be an acceptable ship for my purposes.
Let me preface by saying that I don't think a TE nerf is the right move, but I couldn't care less how it 'nerfs' attack battlecruisers as they are clearly overpowered anyway.
Talos Pre TE Nerf
30km 675 dps 40km 480 dps 45km 382 dps 50km 295 dps
Talos Post TE Nerf 30km 605 dps (-75 / -10%) 40km 374 dps (-106 / -22%) 45km 275 dps (-107 / -28%) 50km 196 dps (-99 / -33%)
Keep in mind Talos has 100 dps in drones (or hornet ec-s lmao)
PS if you want to engage ONLY at 35-50km you might want to just use a different ship completely anyway regardless of nerf. If you do get brave enough to go under 35km though then you'll soon see how ridiculous the Talos is.
Comparatively
Tornado before and after TE nerf 30km 576 / 566 40km 521 / 504 45km 490 / 469 50km 456 / 432
Proof: http://imgur.com/a/g86lM
I also included a screenshot of them compared to a shield vindicator (the highest DPS blaster ship in game 1.5b hull 3 SS mag stabs 2 3 percent damage implants) and you can see how a Talos (75m 2 t2 mag stabs no implants) performs just as good after 35km. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3258
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Posted - 2013.03.31 04:27:00 -
[214] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote: Let me preface by saying that I don't think a TE nerf is the right move, but I couldn't care less how it 'nerfs' attack battlecruisers as they are clearly overpowered anyway.
Talos Pre TE Nerf
30km 675 dps 40km 480 dps 45km 382 dps 50km 295 dps
Talos Post TE Nerf 30km 605 dps (-75 / -10%) 40km 374 dps (-106 / -22%) 45km 275 dps (-107 / -28%) 50km 196 dps (-99 / -33%)
Keep in mind Talos has 100 dps in drones (or hornet ec-s lmao)
Hey Dez, those are some great numbers. They look like they're from a Neutron Talos with 2 MFS/2 TE and a single nano. There's a lot of people that think that fit's just the best fit in the world, but I've found it's just outright inferior for my purposes. It's too easy to catch and pin down in the frigate rich environment of low sec.
I took the liberty of providing a DPS chart to compare our fits (neglecting drones): Yours shooting Mine: 30km: 40 DPS 35km: 56 DPS 40km: 74 DPS 45km: 82 DPS 50km: 81 DPS
Mine shooting Yours: 30km: 382 DPS 35km: 308 DPS 40km: 234 DPS 45km: 172 DPS 50km: 119 DPS
As with any fit: the trick to PVP is knowing where you need to be. I have no problems going below 30km or even lower if that's where I need to be. :)
-Liang
Ed: More accurate numbers Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
159
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Posted - 2013.03.31 04:59:00 -
[215] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Dez Affinity wrote: Let me preface by saying that I don't think a TE nerf is the right move, but I couldn't care less how it 'nerfs' attack battlecruisers as they are clearly overpowered anyway.
Talos Pre TE Nerf
30km 675 dps 40km 480 dps 45km 382 dps 50km 295 dps
Talos Post TE Nerf 30km 605 dps (-75 / -10%) 40km 374 dps (-106 / -22%) 45km 275 dps (-107 / -28%) 50km 196 dps (-99 / -33%)
Keep in mind Talos has 100 dps in drones (or hornet ec-s lmao)
Hey Dez, those are some great numbers. They look like they're from a Neutron Talos with 2 MFS/2 TE and a single nano. There's a lot of people that think that fit's just the best fit in the world, but I've found it's just outright inferior for my purposes. It's too easy to catch and pin down in the frigate rich environment of low sec. I took the liberty of providing a DPS chart to compare our fits (neglecting drones): Yours shooting Mine: 30km: 40 DPS 35km: 56 DPS 40km: 74 DPS 45km: 82 DPS 50km: 81 DPS Mine shooting Yours: 30km: 382 DPS 35km: 308 DPS 40km: 234 DPS 45km: 172 DPS 50km: 119 DPS As with any fit: the trick to PVP is knowing where you need to be. I have no problems going below 30km or even lower if that's where I need to be. :) -Liang Ed: More accurate numbers
The only way you are getting those numbers is if you have a 100mn AB fit with no shield buffer, in which case you are slower and thus die.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3258
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:07:00 -
[216] - Quote
I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth. A standard Talos will either die or run away. It might be able to run away with proper piloting. Maybe.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
161
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:08:00 -
[217] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth.
-Liang
Maybe cause the scrubs you fight in Amamake just sit and orbit you like idiots because theyre 3 months old.
lmao |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3258
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:10:00 -
[218] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth.
-Liang Maybe cause the scrubs you fight in Amamake just sit and orbit you like idiots because theyre 3 months old. lmao
Pandemic Legion... Pandemic Legion. Oh yeah, the guys that lost a Titan in Amamake to FW noobs. Oh yeah, the guys that can't seem to score a kill because the only thing they know how to do is drop supers in Ama top belt. Dez Affinity, oh yeah the guy that seems to fly in "small gangs" of 40-120. Cool story, I'm glad you think you know something about how to fly ships.
-Liang
Ed: Can we discuss ships now or would you prefer to continue on with the idiotic name calling? Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
698
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:16:00 -
[219] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Dez Affinity wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:I'm glad that you feel you know more about flying 100mn Taloses than I do. Unfortunately, you couldn't be further from the truth.
-Liang Maybe cause the scrubs you fight in Amamake just sit and orbit you like idiots because theyre 3 months old. lmao Pandemic Legion... Pandemic Legion. Oh yeah, the guys that lost a Titan in Amamake to FW noobs. Oh yeah, the guys that can't seem to score a kill because the only thing they know how to do is drop supers in Ama top belt. Dez Affinity, oh yeah the guy that seems to fly in "small gangs" of 40-120. Cool story, I'm glad you think you know something about how to fly ships. -Liang Ed: Can we discuss ships now or would you prefer to continue on with the idiotic name calling?
Its called being Pro pvpers BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
585
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:19:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:they are slow and squishy enough as it is Squishy, yes. Slow, no. As I said in the post, cruisers and frigs both put a lot of pressure on them, but they are still substantially faster than anything that rivals their damage projection.
They are faster than half cruiser line up. How can a cruiser put pressure on them when it just gets kited? |
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Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
162
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:21:00 -
[221] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pandemic Legion... Pandemic Legion. Oh yeah, the guys that lost a Titan in Amamake to FW noobs. Oh yeah, the guys that can't seem to score a kill because the only thing they know how to do is drop supers in Ama top belt. Dez Affinity, oh yeah the guy that seems to fly in "small gangs" of 40-120. Cool story, I'm glad you think you know something about how to fly ships.
-Liang
Yeah what would I know about PvP I'm just in Pandemic Legion. I should join someone elite to prove my personal pvp prowess.
Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Can we discuss ships now or would you prefer to continue on with the idiotic name calling?
Sure, but let's stop being so pretentious with things like : "There's a lot of people that think that fit's just the best fit in the world, but I've found it's just outright inferior for my purposes"
and thinking we should balance around your very specific fit rather than what people are flying regularly.
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Its called being Pro pvpers
You flatter me Sir, I am but a talented amateur.
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Diesel47
Bad Men Ltd.
585
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:22:00 -
[222] - Quote
@CCP Rise/kil2.
Are you going to do anything to fix the fact that they make solo\small gang nano ships completely worthless for fighting larger numbers? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3258
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Posted - 2013.03.31 05:37:00 -
[223] - Quote
Dez Affinity wrote:Yeah what would I know about PvP I'm just in Pandemic Legion. I should join someone elite to prove my personal pvp prowess.
I dunno man. The idiot 3 month old noobs and veteran blobbers that only barely know how to press F1 are everywhere in the game (including in your alliance). Just because someone's in (or not in) null sec doesn't really mean a whole lot about their general ability to PVP. My general dismissal of your POV hinges entirely on your insistence on speaking about something you don't know anything about.
IMO: learn what the **** you're talking about and then come talk to me about how my ships fly, k?
Quote:Liang Nuren wrote:
Ed: Can we discuss ships now or would you prefer to continue on with the idiotic name calling?
Sure, but let's stop being so pretentious with things like : "There's a lot of people that think that fit's just the best fit in the world, but I've found it's just outright inferior for my purposes" and thinking we should balance around your very specific fit rather than what people are flying regularly.
This is where you're being really stupid. I never said they shouldn't go forward with the nerf. I said they should, though I admitted that it'd make the Talos (and Tier 3s as a whole) immensely less useful to me. Grath insisted that I was being chicken little and dared me to ~poast numbers~ that showed why I hold the opinion I do.
Which I did. Which you tried to "correct" and "massage" and "forum warrior". So, kindly learn to read m8?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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PavlikX
You are in da lock
48
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Posted - 2013.03.31 08:22:00 -
[224] - Quote
CCP, please, remove one (or two) turrets from that ships. Because 7-8 large turrtes must have battleships only |
Grath Telkin
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
1429
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Posted - 2013.03.31 08:54:00 -
[225] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Grath insisted that I was being chicken little and dared me to ~poast numbers~ that showed why I hold the opinion I do.
Yea, you'll need to either A) stop trying to fight at 50km with a short raned weapon system (shortest range weapons system actually) or B) change your fit. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
239
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Posted - 2013.03.31 09:15:00 -
[226] - Quote
PavlikX wrote:CCP, please, remove one (or two) turrets from that ships. Because 7-8 large turrtes must have battleships only why battleships only? where the hell did you read it is battleships only to have that many guns?
personally , i would lower their tracking than dps, oh and remove the drones from the talos, these bc-s should be rly hard to fight small ships , then why give one of them drones to be able to do it easily? it is already fast and have the best tracking
oh and ignote this pathetic legion vs lowsec noobs , one is worse than the other , blob fight or run style pvp is their area of expertise |
Lili Lu
721
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Posted - 2013.03.31 15:17:00 -
[227] - Quote
Yeah Naomi, those drones mean so much. I sense some drone envy. Oh look the ships are being used in roughly equal numbers and in fact it is the Talos that is behind the others in the usage numbers. Your Naga is doing fine, you Amarr posting alt of a Caldari chauvinist.
I see very little wrong with these proposed adjustments to tier 3s (Attack BCs). Afterall, I have no idea what they are going to do to make HACs worthwhile without making them OP if they don't nerf these BCs. And these nerfs one could view as even timid. But it is refreshing to see some moderate touch to nerfing instead of the old battle axe or sledge hammer approach. |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
240
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Posted - 2013.03.31 15:50:00 -
[228] - Quote
Lili Lu wrote:Yeah Naomi, those drones mean so much. I sense some drone envy. Oh look the ships are being used in roughly equal numbers and in fact it is the Talos that is behind the others in the usage numbers. Your Naga is doing fine, you Amarr posting alt of a Caldari chauvinist. I see very little wrong with these proposed adjustments to tier 3s (Attack BCs). Afterall, I have no idea what they are going to do to make HACs worthwhile without making them OP if they don't nerf these BCs. And these nerfs one could view as even timid. But it is refreshing to see some moderate touch to nerfing instead of the old battle axe or sledge hammer approach.
:O still drones are odd for an attack bc oh i always wonder how didnt ccp manage to make the naga useless , it is a good ship compared to the other attack bc-s completly out of line from caldari doctrine |
Lili Lu
721
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Posted - 2013.03.31 15:58:00 -
[229] - Quote
Thanks Naomi, for not getting upset with my tweak of you. But to address your wonderment, the Naga is getting good usage because to be frank 10% optimal bonuses on Caldari ships is a very good bonus. I think it is really overdone. 7.5% would be sufficient.
But realistically I don't think they will tone them down. The most egregious example is the Cormorant. If any destroyer and small turret should be hitting at 100km it should be a beam laser. But this is EVE where "hypersonic speeds" are faster than the speed of light in a vacuum. Or maybe because all those particles in space are diffusing the beam of concentrated photons over the relatively short distance of 100km
Eve, can't live with its oddities, can't live without them. |
Major Killz
163
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Posted - 2013.03.31 16:09:00 -
[230] - Quote
You 2 lesbians should make out. I really wonder what that would look like
- killz |
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Lili Lu
721
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Posted - 2013.03.31 16:13:00 -
[231] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:You 2 lesbians should make out. I really wonder what that would look like - killz You'll have to wait for WiS. You roll your eyes? On that day I know I could be looking for Naomi. 100mil per view, tickets on sale. Fap fap fap
editited - to raise the ticket price because we are both that hot, really |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3260
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Posted - 2013.03.31 17:43:00 -
[232] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Liang Nuren wrote: Grath insisted that I was being chicken little and dared me to ~poast numbers~ that showed why I hold the opinion I do.
Yea, you'll need to either A) stop trying to fight at 50km with a short raned weapon system (shortest range weapons system actually) or B) change your fit.
So, I guess that's you agreeing that for my purposes the Talos is getting brutalized? You can say I need to pull my range in, but again - I didn't have the range to give up. You can say that I need to change my fit, in which case the ship has other critical weaknesses. You can say I need to stop flying the ship... in which case (holy ****!) you're agreeing with me.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mind Rape
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2013.03.31 20:56:00 -
[233] - Quote
-20km locking range on all tier 3...
well done CCP for sending another ship class into unusable-****-category |
LakeEnd
FinFleet Raiden.
40
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Posted - 2013.03.31 21:26:00 -
[234] - Quote
Mind **** wrote:-20km locking range on all tier 3...
well done CCP for sending another ship class into unusable-****-category Numbers are hard.
CCP Rise: I think this is a good start, but does not go far enough. Dropping a turret would make 6-7 turretBS again viable and adding some mass would make tier3's less invulnerable in large fleets. At the moment is near impossible to catch meaningful part of well flown tier3 fleet, they can MWD out of the bubbles in few secs, long pointing few of them nets you couple kills, but others escape, scrambling enough of them with, say, AF fleet is also very hard due to relatively small speed difference. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp
2
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Posted - 2013.03.31 23:15:00 -
[235] - Quote
Mind **** wrote:-20km locking range on all tier 3...
well done CCP for sending another ship class into unusable-****-category Er...what?
Yeah, try reading it again.
Locking range didn't change. |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Light Industries Sick N' Twisted
434
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Posted - 2013.04.01 00:15:00 -
[236] - Quote
PavlikX wrote:CCP, please, remove one (or two) turrets from that ships. Because 7-8 large turrtes must have battleships only I agree. 7 turrets is still formidable. Its a total of 12.5% reduction in DPS but it would mean that there is actually a reason to use BS's as snipers on the field.
LakeEnd wrote:Numbers are hard.
Chris Winter wrote:Er...what?
Yeah, try reading it again.
Locking range didn't change. I thought the same. Then I looked again to make sure. He's right. It has changed. -20km across the board.
That said, the lock range is still over 200km, so with long range targeting, you still hit 250km. So i hardly see it as a problem. MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Lunaleil Fournier
StarFleet Enterprises Red Alliance
23
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Posted - 2013.04.01 00:59:00 -
[237] - Quote
The proposed changes won't be felt at all, and attack BCs will still be the primary choice of FCs. Plus I agree that these still far overshadow the combat BCs.
You need to put more separation between BS and BC damage...I think taking away a weapon slot is the way to go. |
Lugia3
Lurking Beneath
358
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Posted - 2013.04.01 01:11:00 -
[238] - Quote
There is a reason we fly the Talos, which is less tanky than the Naga, and is only marginally faster... It has a flight of light drones.
Please don't take away our drones. Also, 8 guns are good, leave them. Yarr |
Dez Affinity
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
162
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Posted - 2013.04.01 01:17:00 -
[239] - Quote
Lugia3 wrote:There is a reason we fly the Talos, which is less tanky than the Naga, and is only marginally faster... It has a flight of light drones.
Please don't take away our drones. Also, 8 guns are good, leave them.
These people post in threads about balancing.
Hahaha. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
411
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 01:55:00 -
[240] - Quote
Im with the remove one turret hardpoint crowd. This would make it so moving to the t3 battleship gives an actual improvement on effective fighting capability, where as currently attack battlecruisers deal the same damage and can purchase 3 hulls and fittings for the price of 1 t3 bs. This would also make the t1 & t2 bs be more interesting with their bonuses instead of feeling like they are underpowered. |
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