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Sukar
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Posted - 2005.09.06 21:50:00 -
[31]
Personally I do a lot of lvl3s in my Raven, and cruises are generally a waste in them (they do less dps than heavies against most rats I face in a lvl 3 mission), not sure whether it is still better to use heavies now that you lose the bonuses. In fact, at this point, if I want to do 99% missions to make my money, should I use a raven at all? I can't solo lvl 4s anymore (the frigates are too tough) and the lvl 3s are probably pretty inefficient now.
For a mission person and someone with a million skill points invested in missiles, should I switch to the ferox for its lesser cost or train up for the cerberus (I'm about 34 days away from a cerberus if I switch towards it) or just stick it out? Sukar http://www.dndorks.com |
Motec
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Posted - 2005.09.06 21:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gian Bal ok, now that we have all missiles balanced, when will they get the love they need to get back in line? why has my tempest a small chance to kill a frig with one shoot and my raven no chance to ever do more than 20 dmg?
What is that stuff that rolls down hill again? Anyways I'm happy with the new missle system I think CCP did well overall. I just want techII dmg mods for missles, implants all these neat things everyone else gets.
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.09.06 21:53:00 -
[33]
Harpy for lvl3 missions is pretty fun if you want a change. But it wont get your rich in a hurry.
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boogaboob
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:34:00 -
[34]
Edited by: boogaboob on 06/09/2005 22:35:53 I'm a basically all missile user here, with light missile spec and 4 or 5 in every other type, and my response is:
ONOS!!!111 I CANT USE ROCKETZ ON A R4VEN!11%42425! H4X!!!! AND I CANT KILL FR1GZ WITH T0RPS!!!1 CCP H8S MISSILE USERS!!!1111111!
Sorry, I had to get that out of my system. Im fed up with the endless 'CCP hates missiles' threads. Even the thread title, in all caps with the word 'raven' and 'nerfed' next to each other, makes my blood boil.
Put more eloquently, I, personally, think the raven is better than it has ever been, with the exception of the lvl 4 mission soloing thing. Though a few caldari ships got hit a bit, overall we're fine. This doesn't hurt much at all; as some of the other posters stated, its a good step toward a balance between all ships, if not toward diversity. I realize some people may feel differently, and i respect that. But this is my opinion.
Signatures done by me! Evemail me! Anyone? No? Aww...
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Troezar
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:43:00 -
[35]
My Raven works fine, 6 drones and 2 small lasers kills the frigates quite nicely I'm only at lvl 3 for all missile skills so I expect it will get a lot better too
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Zeb Carter
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:45:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Antic Harpy for lvl3 missions is pretty fun if you want a change. But it wont get your rich in a hurry.
I dunno, I do all my lvl3s in my Harpy.. I found it to go much much quicker than in the Raven, especially missions like Spy Stash. Extravaganza's only take about 45m to 1h, another 20 for the bonus (but I like to bring a friend along for that part because it takes ages to take the BS down). _______________________
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:50:00 -
[37]
One has a hard time letting go of the fact that once upon a time you could warp into a 9.5 mil officer spawn, shoot half a volley at each intie and solo the spawn with or without warping out for cap.
Also the fact that warping into enemy gangs at 60 and killing every single one of their tacklers and then bailing out was teh 0wn
Frig gangs will own ravens now, unlike the old times when frig gangs were like "ok we'll attack anything except a raven, k?". --------------------------------------
Hail Stian Allaince and the emperor who can't spell. ;]
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:53:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Sukar Personally I do a lot of lvl3s in my Raven, and cruises are generally a waste in them (they do less dps than heavies against most rats I face in a lvl 3 mission), not sure whether it is still better to use heavies now that you lose the bonuses. In fact, at this point, if I want to do 99% missions to make my money, should I use a raven at all? I can't solo lvl 4s anymore (the frigates are too tough) and the lvl 3s are probably pretty inefficient now.
For a mission person and someone with a million skill points invested in missiles, should I switch to the ferox for its lesser cost or train up for the cerberus (I'm about 34 days away from a cerberus if I switch towards it) or just stick it out?
Stick with the raven, but add target painters. YOu don't have to have an incredibly good tank for level 3's. 3 target painter 2's, level 4 in guided missile precision and signature focusing should allow you to do approximately full cruise missile damage vs cruisers.
Picking up cans is another matter entirely, but it's not that much better in a ferox than it is in a BS.
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:56:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Masta Killa One has a hard time letting go of the fact that once upon a time you could warp into a 9.5 mil officer spawn, shoot half a volley at each intie and solo the spawn with or without warping out for cap.
Also the fact that warping into enemy gangs at 60 and killing every single one of their tacklers and then bailing out was teh 0wn
Frig gangs will own ravens now, unlike the old times when frig gangs were like "ok we'll attack anything except a raven, k?".
Just like every other battleship might I add you. So what happens when the Raven is put back down with the other battleships in handling frigs. Lets say it all at once = Balanced.
You still have the same frig counter defenses as we all do = Drones/NoS/Neturilzer/Small Guns/Missiles hit some don't they?
-Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.06 22:59:00 -
[40]
"For a mission person and someone with a million skill points invested in missiles, should I switch to the ferox for its lesser cost or train up for the cerberus (I'm about 34 days away from a cerberus if I switch towards it) or just stick it out?"
Ferox is more than enough for lvl.3 missions. Too slow to pick up loot with, but that's what mwd Kestrel with two cargo expanders parked in the system with the agent is for :s
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Arimas Talasko
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Posted - 2005.09.06 23:07:00 -
[41]
lmfao I can't believe people are complaining about this, who in their right mind uses heavy missiles as a raven's primary armament... Who uses a raven to do level 3 missions...
Supremacy Keepin it Real
Originally by: Daniel Jackson PLEASE TELL US WHY, WHY DO U WANT US TO DIE, I AM JUST GOING FRIGGEN INSAIGN
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Motec
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Posted - 2005.09.06 23:39:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Motec on 06/09/2005 23:41:26
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Masta Killa One has a hard time letting go of the fact that once upon a time you could warp into a 9.5 mil officer spawn, shoot half a volley at each intie and solo the spawn with or without warping out for cap.
Also the fact that warping into enemy gangs at 60 and killing every single one of their tacklers and then bailing out was teh 0wn
Frig gangs will own ravens now, unlike the old times when frig gangs were like "ok we'll attack anything except a raven, k?".
Just like every other battleship might I add you. So what happens when the Raven is put back down with the other battleships in handling frigs. Lets say it all at once = Balanced.
You still have the same frig counter defenses as we all do = Drones/NoS/Neturilzer/Small Guns/Missiles hit some don't they?
I won't question your gunnery skills Famine Aligher'ri but surely your large turrets hit frigs for full dmg as long as they don't go under falloff. On topic the raven's bonus is 100% sane.
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Sukar
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Posted - 2005.09.06 23:43:00 -
[43]
Hmm, I haven't tried using more than 1 target painter at a time, I'll give the 3 a try and see how it goes.
As to Arimas: I like using a battleship, I like doing missions. Thus, I like doing missions in a battleship. I "hate" mining, my attempts at being a merchant have as of yet so far only made a few hundred thousand isk per hour (I'm all combat skills, I'm hoping a bit of training in trading skills and indy skills can help that). About 50% of the time I used a caracal for lvl 3 missions, but its so fragile that being distracted at the wrong moment results in a fine layer of dust where my caracal was. I used to solo lvl 4s, now its pretty risky (I still do solo lvl 4s when I want to make quick money and I don't mind concentrating on the battle). I hate pirates and other ragemonkey types, so I'm not about to go that route to make my isk, so thus, lvl 3 missions in a raven. I get to blow things up, if I have to answer a business call (I own 2 businesses, I can get calls at any time of the day) I don't have to worry about losing my ship, and I make several million isk an hour.
Logically, I think it makes sense, but if you have a way for me to make more isk with the skills I have (all combat-missiles), then by all means share, unless its piracy-based (thats all I need, have a surprise business meeting worth thousands right in the middle of a pvp battle. Heck, if it can be done in less than a month, I'd be quite willing to change my skills around (I'm spending a month training up for gallente freighter at the moment, I think mass trading would be good for passive money making during phone calls)
Sukar http://www.dndorks.com |
Dracolich
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Posted - 2005.09.06 23:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
Originally by: Masta Killa One has a hard time letting go of the fact that once upon a time you could warp into a 9.5 mil officer spawn, shoot half a volley at each intie and solo the spawn with or without warping out for cap.
Also the fact that warping into enemy gangs at 60 and killing every single one of their tacklers and then bailing out was teh 0wn
Frig gangs will own ravens now, unlike the old times when frig gangs were like "ok we'll attack anything except a raven, k?".
Just like every other battleship might I add you. So what happens when the Raven is put back down with the other battleships in handling frigs. Lets say it all at once = Balanced.
You still have the same frig counter defenses as we all do = Drones/NoS/Neturilzer/Small Guns/Missiles hit some don't they?
To my knowledge a gun-using ship can do more than 20 damage at long-range, dont know if I would call that balanced, but okay, then again, if a gunship is target jammed, its pretty ****** while a missile ship is not. _______________________________________
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.09.07 02:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kresko Omg Omg Omg i must spend more time training....
(seriously does anyone care :/)
I do kinda was testing a pure assualt launcher setup against rogue drones...basicly because my drone skills are crap being most cal ships have crapy drone bays in comparsion...in the BS class they are the absloute worst for drone bays.
2 races have a cruiser with no drone bays, and the other (ie the golden children the amarr) have a drone based cruiser...
Raven 150 Scorp 150
Tempest 150 phoon 350
Apoc 150 geddon 250
Domi 750 mega 250
WTF is up with that? Use drones they say, adapt they say. Wake up out the 4 BS that have rap drone bays the caldari have 2 of them small cargo holds and largest m3 size ammo per shot and crapy cargo bays? the only BS that has no weapon related bonus?
I mean come on stop screwing the caldari already...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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slip66
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Posted - 2005.09.07 04:12:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Frig gangs will own ravens now, unlike the old times when frig gangs were like "ok we'll attack anything except a raven, k?".
exactly
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Citizen Angstrom
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Posted - 2005.09.07 05:17:00 -
[47]
It's really sad to see people jumping up and down on the smashed remnants of the once proud Caldari.
Woe betide anyone who dares to point out a further nerf of the Much Dreaded Raven. Especially if it is a stealth nerf. Very especially if it is a nerf which curtails a method of dealing with the Missile 'Change', which many of these ^^ maniacs have been loudly forcing Raven pilots to try and use...
Can't everyone see, that the Caldari are all evil monsters, that the Raven must be nerfed and nerfed until it is a rubber duck, that missiles must be reduced to sub-peashooter status?
I suggest to the OP and everyone else who disagrees with the baying mob, that they keep quiet. A lynching is always possible, if you aren't careful...
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sidthesexist
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Posted - 2005.09.07 07:29:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Xelios Ugh... they suck in missions because they can't take out frigs in one hit now? Well surprise neither can any other battleship! Load up some drones or fit a couple medium turrets like everyone else.
Missile volume should be decreased though.
they suck in missions now cos the cant atke out frigs with a dozen hits
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Rafein
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Posted - 2005.09.07 07:34:00 -
[49]
I dunno, CCP confuses me a lot anymore.
One patch, they rework Launchers, so Caldari Cruisers can no longer fit a rack of Heavy missile launchers.
Then next patch, they take the Caldari BS, and remove the bonus for Heavies and lower.
I mean, ifthey wanted to get rid of heavy missiles, would it not have been easier to do it at the beginning?
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Fikia
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Posted - 2005.09.07 09:44:00 -
[50]
They need to give the raven a full rack of launcher hard points so that if one desired, they could mount non-torp/cruiser launchers in the extra two slots..
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Jiggy
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Posted - 2005.09.07 10:18:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Fikia They need to give the raven a full rack of launcher hard points so that if one desired, they could mount non-torp/cruiser launchers in the extra two slots..
Yes.
Apoc gets 8 turret and 2 Launcher points, Raven gets 6 launcher and 4 turret.
Why not make it 8 launcher 2 turrent? :)
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loxxx
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Posted - 2005.09.07 10:34:00 -
[52]
I feel so bad for training caldari BS lvl5, cruise lvl5, torp lvl5 and all new missile skills lvl5. Why didnt someone tell me that it is going to be a complete waste of time. I dont hunt NPC-s, so lets skip that. For pvp raven just sucks. (thank god i can use scorp for jamming in fleet battles, bad thing it dies first). Few things id like to point out.
a)Why the hell guided missile precision only affects light, heavy and cruise? How would gun users feel if motion prediction would only affect only long range guns? (rails, howis etc). rank5 b) Missile bombardment. somehow useful, tho i really dont see any point training this skill to lvl5. What the hell im supposed to do with 250km+ cruise missile range. rank2 c) Missile launcher op and rapid launch. Skills that acctually work. Still i cant understand why gunnery rapid fireing gets 4% instead of 3% like rapid launch gets. rank1 + rank2 d) Missile projection. It should be 20% instead of 10% and it still would take too long before missiles hit anything. Pretty much useless skill for rank4, should be rank1-2 e) target navigation prediction. Trained it to lvl5, didnt see any real damage increase. rank2 f) warhead upgrades. 2% more damage for rank5 skill? why the hell gunnery gets 3% for rank4? g) all missile spec skills. ROF is nice! or is it? I use more ammo and i need to reload more often (missiles allready cost more than any other ammo)
Caldari BS-s are the slowest BS-s. They got smallest drone bay. Longest lock time. We dont have any t2 damage modes. Ou, we only got low slot damage mod. We got no missile implants. T2 launchers cost way too much (350mm rail 1-2m vs 12-15m cruise launcher). More t2 launcher bpo-s should be given out for t2 lottery. etcetc
blaah, think whatever you want but caldari has been nerfed way too hard. It used to suck for pvp and now it sucks even more.
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:10:00 -
[53]
Originally by: loxxx
blaah, think whatever you want but caldari has been nerfed way too hard. It used to suck for pvp and now it sucks even more.
you forgot to mension that it also sucks most @ mining and since these patches also @ missions.
it cinda sucks on EVRYTING.
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WiseMagic
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:22:00 -
[54]
Guys stop whinning about the Raven its only right that they change the bonus to cruise and torps, if u want to use heavys or assault launchers then do u just don't get the bonus but if ur new missile skills are at high levels then what the deal u will still be effective. I use my Raven for NPC/Agent runnning, I do not consider it as a PvP ship use Amarr ships for that. Raven with full tech2 equip is still a wicked ship. Use Caldari Cruisers/HACS or Battlecruisers if u want to use heavy/assault launchers, CCP was right to do that makes people think abit about there ship choice.
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LVirus
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:30:00 -
[55]
Edited by: LVirus on 07/09/2005 11:34:01
Originally by: WiseMagic Guys stop whinning about the Raven its only right that they change the bonus to cruise and torps, if u want to use heavys or assault launchers then do u just don't get the bonus but if ur new missile skills are at high levels then what the deal u will still be effective. I use my Raven for NPC/Agent runnning, I do not consider it as a PvP ship use Amarr ships for that. Raven with full tech2 equip is still a wicked ship. Use Caldari Cruisers/HACS or Battlecruisers if u want to use heavy/assault launchers, CCP was right to do that makes people think abit about there ship choice.
aah, now i understand. If i want to pvp then i should learn amarr skills? I must have missed that "never use caldari for pvp" warning when i was creating my char. But tnx for helping me out on this one, ill just go and make another char.
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Bracius
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:39:00 -
[56]
raven is okish. At least a lone hac usually cannot take down decently fitted raven.
I just contributed 0 to this topic :) |
The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:41:00 -
[57]
all those non-raven uses just ignore all the facts and say "stop wining" ' i seriouse think the raven should get +2 launcher HP and -2turret HP apoc god 8 turret HP and 2 launcher HP
and raven totaly sucks @ evryting olrady
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Ryy Kishin
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: The Wizz117 raven special ability are: missiles this is suposed to be the good thing aboud the raven. just like apoc got good cap and that dominix got goot drones etc.
but missiles are just worse then turrets. that totaly sucks
caldari are worst 0.0 ( u would need a alt in a badger full of torps if you wanna last there) worst miners and now they suck in missions 2!
Live Hard Die Young Leave A Good Looking Corpse There are no bugs in Eve only features.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2005.09.07 11:51:00 -
[59]
Originally by: WiseMagic Guys stop whinning about the Raven its only right that they change the bonus to cruise and torps, if u want to use heavys or assault launchers then do u just don't get the bonus but if ur new missile skills are at high levels then what the deal u will still be effective. I use my Raven for NPC/Agent runnning, I do not consider it as a PvP ship use Amarr ships for that. Raven with full tech2 equip is still a wicked ship. Use Caldari Cruisers/HACS or Battlecruisers if u want to use heavy/assault launchers, CCP was right to do that makes people think abit about there ship choice.
1) On topic: I agree this changes nothing. Using Ass. or heavy missles was IMO an idiotic concept (for 99% of the situations) - I am open to debate if anybody wants and explain exactly what I mean if somebody is wondering - that was mainly proposed by ignorant (as far as fkying a Raven is concerned) turret users that were trying whatever argument to try and explain away the imbalance of the missle nerf. 2) The missle balancing was necessary. (I was soloing lvl4 missions 2 months in the game -all of them in the 3rd- and that has to be wrong). 3) Still balancing is a tricky business and has to be done very carefully, placing the pendulum at the middle with care. This has not been achieved (to date at least). You dont straighten a crooked painting by slapping it the other way with all ur might. The balance will hopefully be redressed at some point (after all u dont need motion prediction 5 and adv motion prediction 4-5 to hit a cruiser with mega pulses :) ). In the meantime Cardari pilots will need to specialise in a second race as well (those that havent already). Not bcause their ships suck as such but simpy because they are good in very limited & specific roles.
Indeed it seems to me that Caldari were perhaps the most usual example of chars getting good results from a very straightlined skill tree (those that focused on missles only ignoring hybrids gunnery drones etc). One has to wonder if perhaps that wasnt also in the minds of the CCP people... forcing players with Caldari chars to spend more time = RL money skilling up to get to enjoy the game ... hmmm...
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Trelennen
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Posted - 2005.09.07 15:28:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dracolich To my knowledge a gun-using ship can do more than 20 damage at long-range, dont know if I would call that balanced, but okay, then again, if a gunship is target jammed, its pretty ****** while a missile ship is not.
Yeah a gunship *CAN* do more than 20 damage. A missile ship *WILL* do 20 damage each time. If you really want to compare that, you have to do a comparison like this (figures totaly random here, just for the thought, chose figures which makes all balanced, but maybe it's not in this regard): - missiles hit for 20 each shot - turrets hit for 100 every 5 shots ('cause they have a bad tracking and thus won't hit a non stupid smaller size ship pilot who will use transversal) With this figures the overall damage is the same (assuming for simplification that RoF is the same).
So if you guys want to say that missiles sucks now cause you only do 20 damage each time, give all the figures needed for comparison: rof of your missile, damage/rof/chance to hit a target depending on its transversal speed for the different kind of equivalent turrets (proj, hybrid, lasers), take the mathematical expectation of those figures and then compare.
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