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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.09.07 15:39:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 07/09/2005 15:40:40 The real problem, here, is not frigates - killing frigates is not the raven's role.
The raven's role, like all battleships, is to kill cruisers or other battleships - and this is where it fails. It currently takes too many volleys to kill a cruiser...and if that cruiser is properly tanked, it's even possible to permatank a raven's damage output with one (don't believe me? - fit a tech II med armor rep, hardeners against thermal, kinetic, and explosive, and an armor plate on a thorax and have your raven buddy shoot at you from beyond 20km).
Cruise missiles and torpedos need a boost vs. cruisers.
Vs. battleships and frigates, they're fine. -Wrayeth
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qyros
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Posted - 2005.09.07 15:42:00 -
[62]
Edited by: qyros on 07/09/2005 15:42:51
Originally by: Trelennen
.. So if you guys want to say that missiles sucks now cause you only do 20 damage each time, give all the figures needed for comparison: rof of your missile, damage/rof/chance to hit a target depending on its transversal speed for the different kind of equivalent turrets (proj, hybrid, lasers), take the mathematical expectation of those figures and then compare.
[ 2005.09.04 23:06:31 ] (combat) Your Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery I perfectly strikes Sunder Drone, wrecking for 207.6 damage.
[ 2005.09.04 23:06:13 ] (combat) Your Cataclysm Cruise Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 55.6 damage.
Turret damage is dynamic and you can influence it. Missile users cannot do this.
The new missile damage is probably based on the damage the devs call preferable against smaller targets. But no medium gun gets a 2/3 damage reduction when shooting frigs.
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Karl Borhman
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Posted - 2005.09.07 16:50:00 -
[63]
Originally by: qyros But no medium gun gets a 2/3 damage reduction when shooting frigs.
That's because they cannot be hit in the first place ...
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.07 16:53:00 -
[64]
"That's because they cannot be hit in the first place ... "
Yeah, right. Cruisers using medium weapons never ever kill frigates in this game. Never happened, never will.
--;;;
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.09.07 16:54:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Karl Borhman
Originally by: qyros But no medium gun gets a 2/3 damage reduction when shooting frigs.
That's because they cannot be hit in the first place ...
That's the problem - cruisers' role is to kill frigs and cruisers. Instead of reducing sig radius to make them harder to hit with battleships, cruisers should be boosted by increasing the tracking/explosion radius/velocity of medium weapons, thus allowing them to fulfill their role as frig-killers. -Wrayeth
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:04:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Trelennen
Originally by: Dracolich To my knowledge a gun-using ship can do more than 20 damage at long-range, dont know if I would call that balanced, but okay, then again, if a gunship is target jammed, its pretty ****** while a missile ship is not.
Yeah a gunship *CAN* do more than 20 damage. A missile ship *WILL* do 20 damage each time. If you really want to compare that, you have to do a comparison like this
Sorry but you need to re-examibe your assumptions, A missile ship *CAN* do about 20 damage its not garanteed to do this minimum damage...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:15:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Slater Dogstar on 07/09/2005 17:15:06
Originally by: qyros Edited by: qyros on 07/09/2005 15:42:51
Originally by: Trelennen
.. So if you guys want to say that missiles sucks now cause you only do 20 damage each time, give all the figures needed for comparison: rof of your missile, damage/rof/chance to hit a target depending on its transversal speed for the different kind of equivalent turrets (proj, hybrid, lasers), take the mathematical expectation of those figures and then compare.
[ 2005.09.04 23:06:31 ] (combat) Your Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery I perfectly strikes Sunder Drone, wrecking for 207.6 damage.
[ 2005.09.04 23:06:13 ] (combat) Your Cataclysm Cruise Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 55.6 damage.
Turret damage is dynamic and you can influence it. Missile users cannot do this.
The new missile damage is probably based on the damage the devs call preferable against smaller targets. But no medium gun gets a 2/3 damage reduction when shooting frigs.
I note you used a cruise missile to compare against a medum gun against a drone
It would have been better if you used a heavy missile at least that would be of a similar size range.
Also the medium gun you used Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery I gives the largest damage compared to any other equivelent gun. Also artillerie guns have a rate of fire similar to missiles and unlike missiles they can do several things, MISS GLANCE etc.
True in the example you showed it not only hit but did a wrecking hit but that happens only 3% of the time so things are not as unballanced as you make out.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:48:00 -
[68]
wow, never seen people complain so much, for me missiles are still doing great, i fire lights from my crow doing 140 damage, i fire heavies from my cerb doing 200 to 300 damage, i fire cm's from my raven doing 400+ damage, if i see a frig i nossie and webbie de *cencored* out if it then let my T2 drones return it to it's Maker.
I only agree on 1 thing, stationary and webbied objects should get an increase in damage, if i webbie a cruiser and TP it too it should go up in smoke with a cm or 4 should it not? Well at least i think it should :) (but at least my drones are getting well fed now ) signature? What signature? ;) |
Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:53:00 -
[69]
I HAVE THE SOLUTION!
Use cruise or siege launchers on the raven
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:58:00 -
[70]
"I note you used a cruise missile to compare against a medum gun against a drone
It would have been better if you used a heavy missile at least that would be of a similar size range."
This is from my damage log, on the very same kind of drone:
Quote: [ 2005.08.22 21:23:13 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Widowmaker Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 47.8 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:23:13 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Havoc Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 23.9 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:23:23 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Widowmaker Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 38.9 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:23:25 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Scourge Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 47.0 damage.
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mOrdi
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Posted - 2005.09.07 17:59:00 -
[71]
hello im caldari, but none of the nerfs have affected me at all y? i learnt gal and cal races and allways saw missiles as a secondary weapon myself..rails being my primary focus.. caldari isnt just all missiles..be flexible train up some hybrid gun skills to complement them learn other races ships is another good idea, if u train up rails then gal ships become a great asset
gotta move on chaps .. theres nothing wrong with caldari and theres more to eve than just hopping in an ugly raven and flinging missiles left and right
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000Hunter000
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Posted - 2005.09.07 18:02:00 -
[72]
yes but overkilling a little 2.5k npc with 6 torps was fun though at times
But he's right, if u can't handle them with missiles, go study guns as well. signature? What signature? ;) |
Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.07 18:20:00 -
[73]
Well at least josaphine made a good point I am open to a good point.
Tho i still say missiles are fine after all you have people on this thread saying that missiles are fine now as i dont use missiles myself being gilent i cant give any definate opinions on this matter so if you are saying the truth when you say missiles are fine then please give some detailed Data saying why you think so.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
Cavy Dan
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Posted - 2005.09.07 18:29:00 -
[74]
They only changed the text to this patch. The Raven has been like this since at LEAST the Cold War Patch. You didn't notice?
Hehe. That means you don't use any other missile than Cruise and Torp.
I was confused that the bonus didn't apply to Heavies and lower, but the loss ain't that big.
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.09.07 18:37:00 -
[75]
Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 07/09/2005 18:06:01
"I note you used a cruise missile to compare against a medum gun against a drone
It would have been better if you used a heavy missile at least that would be of a similar size range."
This is from my damage log, on the very same kind of drone:
Quote: [ 2005.08.22 21:23:13 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Widowmaker Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 47.8 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:23:13 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Havoc Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 23.9 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:23:23 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Widowmaker Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 38.9 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:23:25 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your Scourge Heavy Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 47.0 damage.
edit: for comparison, here's gun hits:
Quote: [ 2005.08.22 21:32:06 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 200mm Railgun II hits Sunder Drone, doing 32.0 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:32:09 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 200mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Sunder Drone, inflicting 46.6 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:32:13 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 200mm Railgun II hits Sunder Drone, doing 42.6 damage. [ 2005.08.22 21:32:14 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 200mm Railgun II barely scratches Sunder Drone, causing 25.7 damage.
The difference? my guns shoot 3x faster than my launchers... and the launchers had 2 damage mods helping the missiles.
oh, and the turrets were using some medium range ammo rather than antimatter, on top of that...
also, you forgot to notice that a raven only has 6 misile launcher hard points, and that is the most in whole eve. turret ships have way more then 6 turret hard points...
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.09.07 18:41:00 -
[76]
if i read trough this topic, i read that the dudes who agree with me, have way better argumends and proof that the caldari indeed is nerfed to much.
the other dudes just say stop wining train skilz change setup. wich i tried since the patch but totaly does not work. i need 2 extra hard points! so i can fit light missile launchers to kill the frigs!
if someone warps into a mission hee sees like : hmm couple of battle ships cruisers ... and NOO A FRIGATE RUN!
that the way it suposed to be? the missiles cost more then the bounty i get from the frig. AND DO NOT SAY YOU SHOULD FIRE LIGHT MISSILES ON FRIGATES BECOUSE I DO ALTOUGH I DONT HAVE THE SLOTS FOR THEM.
----now i would like a reply from one of the DEV team what they think of all this caldari race nerfint and stuff.------
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Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.07 18:44:00 -
[77]
Lol this whining is fun to watch
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.09.07 19:07:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Cavy Dan They only changed the text to this patch. The Raven has been like this since at LEAST the Cold War Patch. You didn't notice?
Hehe. That means you don't use any other missile than Cruise and Torp.
I was confused that the bonus didn't apply to Heavies and lower, but the loss ain't that big.
Wel day before the patch i had a 5 sec ROF with arbie assults...will check what it is now...but it did seem to be effecting the smaller lanchers as well...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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qyros
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Posted - 2005.09.07 19:26:00 -
[79]
Edited by: qyros on 07/09/2005 19:28:49 Edited by: qyros on 07/09/2005 19:27:59
Originally by: Slater Dogstar
... I note you used a cruise missile to compare against a medum gun against a drone
It would have been better if you used a heavy missile at least that would be of a similar size range.
Also the medium gun you used Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery I gives the largest damage compared to any other equivelent gun. Also artillerie guns have a rate of fire similar to missiles and unlike missiles they can do several things, MISS GLANCE etc.
True in the example you showed it not only hit but did a wrecking hit but that happens only 3% of the time so things are not as unballanced as you make out.
Yes it was an exaggeration. And I was fully aware of that.
Ofc the wrecking hit of a large turret shouldn¦t support the 2/3 damage reduction of heavy missiles (But no medium gun gets a 2/3 damage reduction when shooting frigs. <-- This one was related to heavy missiles.), but the fact that turret damage is dynamic and a turret user can lower the transversal speed.
To show this I used a high tracking short range large turret with large falloff. You can do this with other guns too, but it¦s much harder and not that effective.
The 2/3 damage reduction of heavy missiles against frigs is simply based on the sig radius difference, no mystery. I only mentioned this to show that heavy missiles have a harsh built-in damage reduction while a large gun still can hit a frig. Actually a large turret shouldn¦t be able to hit frigs at all, imo.
Finally the ship I used was a typhoon (you know, there are ships out there that have to rely on missiles without any bonus.)
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RyuOniwaKogu
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Posted - 2005.09.07 19:43:00 -
[80]
thank god it was nerfed what dosent kill you makes you stronger
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.07 20:15:00 -
[81]
Originally by: RyuOniwaKogu thank god it was nerfed what dosent kill you makes you stronger
nerfs make u stronger?
someone nerfed your logic...
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Trelennen
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Posted - 2005.09.08 03:02:00 -
[82]
Originally by: qyros Edited by: qyros on 07/09/2005 15:42:51
Originally by: Trelennen
.. So if you guys want to say that missiles sucks now cause you only do 20 damage each time, give all the figures needed for comparison: rof of your missile, damage/rof/chance to hit a target depending on its transversal speed for the different kind of equivalent turrets (proj, hybrid, lasers), take the mathematical expectation of those figures and then compare.
[ 2005.09.04 23:06:31 ] (combat) Your Dual 650mm Repeating Artillery I perfectly strikes Sunder Drone, wrecking for 207.6 damage.
[ 2005.09.04 23:06:13 ] (combat) Your Cataclysm Cruise Missile I hits Sunder Drone, doing 55.6 damage.
Turret damage is dynamic and you can influence it. Missile users cannot do this.
The new missile damage is probably based on the damage the devs call preferable against smaller targets. But no medium gun gets a 2/3 damage reduction when shooting frigs.
Errr... You quote my post where I say comparing damage on one hit has NO POINT, and that we should consider average damage over time given the high chance to miss with large turrets on moving frig (which means nearly all non AFK frigs), eg. the mathematical expectation. And then all you find to do is showing up a basic damage comparison, like all of your whining friends did above. Maybe you should read what you quote.
Originally by: The Wizz117 if i read trough this topic, i read that the dudes who agree with me, have way better argumends and proof that the caldari indeed is nerfed to much.
the other dudes just say stop wining train skilz change setup. wich i tried since the patch but totaly does not work. i need 2 extra hard points! so i can fit light missile launchers to kill the frigs!
if someone warps into a mission hee sees like : hmm couple of battle ships cruisers ... and NOO A FRIGATE RUN!
that the way it suposed to be? the missiles cost more then the bounty i get from the frig. AND DO NOT SAY YOU SHOULD FIRE LIGHT MISSILES ON FRIGATES BECOUSE I DO ALTOUGH I DONT HAVE THE SLOTS FOR THEM.
----now i would like a reply from one of the DEV team what they think of all this caldari race nerfint and stuff.------
Well, what you want is to have a single weapon to fight BS and frigs like you used to? Wow, so let's give large turret the same tracking that small turrets too!
Originally by: qyros but the fact that turret damage is dynamic and a turret user can lower the transversal speed.
Hum, how a cruiser or BS flying at 500m/s with crapy agility will manage to reduce transversal speed significantly against a frig orbiting over 1km/s outside of web range? Hardly I guess... Everybody agree (at least all those I read constructive posts from) that missiles should hit with max damage any non moving ship, and I think most agree that sig radius should be less significant regarding damage reduction against missiles and speed more significant.
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Hiram
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Posted - 2005.09.08 07:29:00 -
[83]
So they found time to do this but not fix the bloody mail deletion bug properly? FFS!
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qyros
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Posted - 2005.09.08 08:23:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Trelennen
... Errr... You quote my post where I say comparing damage on one hit has NO POINT, and that we should consider average damage over time given the high chance to miss with large turrets on moving frig (which means nearly all non AFK frigs), eg. the mathematical expectation. And then all you find to do is showing up a basic damage comparison, like all of your whining friends did above. Maybe you should read what you quote.
I did read what I quoted.
I quoted your post where you suggested a pure mathematical approach and I answered with an example to show that hypothetical approaches are not enough because you can influence the transversal speed.
The basis is sig radius/sig resolution and sig radius/explosion radius. CCP transferred the turets signature system to missiles.
A medium turret has a 2/3 reduced hit chance against a frig with sig radius 40, like a heavy missile has a 2/3 reduced damage. But the turret has a chance to reduce transversal and the missile can¦t, that¦s why the sig penalty is too high for missiles.
Cruisers can reduce the transversal speed against frigs (ofc not in a close range orbit) and if the frig uses a mwd it has the sig radius of a cruiser anyways.
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.09.09 05:50:00 -
[85]
Quote: Well, what you want is to have a single weapon to fight BS and frigs like you used to? Wow, so let's give large turret the same tracking that small turrets too!
you are making that up, i did not say that. please also chek my RAVEN topic in the developmend section.
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Kuolematon
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Posted - 2005.09.09 06:34:00 -
[86]
Originally by: LVirus aah, now i understand. If i want to pvp then i should learn amarr skills? I must have missed that "never use caldari for pvp" warning when i was creating my char. But tnx for helping me out on this one, ill just go and make another char.
Why thank you. In some weird twisted cosmic way, I snorted my coffee from my nose when I read that. God knows why but I found this very amusing _______________________________________________ Even Ikvar agrees I'm an alt |
WiseMagic
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Posted - 2005.09.09 11:09:00 -
[87]
U guys ever think of using drones on the frigs, since the cold war patch drones have become more important when I go rat hunting. My hammerhead II's keep all those frigs of me while I can deal with the bigger rats, in missions I use my drones to rip the deadspace drones to bits. The Raven can hold 15 med drones which is more than enough to help in frig killing.
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Gungankllr
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Posted - 2005.09.09 12:09:00 -
[88]
bleh
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.09.13 15:25:00 -
[89]
Edited by: The Wizz117 on 13/09/2005 15:32:22 Edited by: The Wizz117 on 13/09/2005 15:25:22 wat would be nerfed this patch? any one knows? i think its the targeting, im trying to lock on a lvl3 drone for aboud 4 mins now, it normaly does not take me more then 1.5
but like all the turret users anc ccp says: ill just adapt and use more drones!
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Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.09.13 20:20:00 -
[90]
OMG!!! Level 3 missions in ravens... Before castor patch those where done in cruisers lol. Have you peeps gone insane. Before Cold war patch i used to do mine in a **** battlecruiser lol. I'll stick to the good old hasty days of pre castor patch and do them in a Moa lol.
Just fit and train those combined skills turrets and missiles and drones and that's it. The glorious days of the raven doing solo in a level 4 mission is over. For mining in 0.0, before or after cold war this is insane to do that solo. Mining ops in 0.0 are done in group period. 0.0 is NOT a walk in the park whatever ship you have.
Skilling more skilling and yes it's not getting better.
I understand some frustrations. Doing a lvl 3 mission in a Moa sounds more challenging then doing it in a tanked raven.
Donno, still puzzled by some stuff here.
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