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Adel Khamez
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
32
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Posted - 2013.04.08 01:09:00 -
[61] - Quote
As long as the Loyalty stores on all sides continue to reward capsuleers for participating in military actions in lowsec, the war will continue.
Since both The Empress and the State continue to reward capsuleers for participating in these lowsec actions, I am required by my oath to the Empress to support such continued actions.
I doubt that your decision to not participate will effect matters much. Amarr Victor, Deus Vult
+¦+à+¦ +º+ä+à+å+¬+¦+¦+î +Ñ+¦+º +¦+º+í +º+ä+ä+ç |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
150
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Posted - 2013.04.08 01:12:00 -
[62] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Ms. Vero,
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding this, but your saying that your organization won't plan or aid in any further attacks, but at the same time you won't bring in the reigns on your substituent corps and pilots operating in the area if they on their own or with others continue to act with aggression?
My statement was specifically applicable to individual pilots. If a [GMVA] Member Corporation were to disregard this policy, that would be an entirely different issue. Such has not been the case, or under discussion.
Simon Louvaki wrote: If I may humbly ask, how it is you can expect the Caldari militia to take this in good faith if you telling them in the same breath that your organization will take no means to stop, prevent or even educate your member corporations in the matter of this memorandum? Its appalling that you acknowledge that your making this offer without all of your pilots knowing or even consenting to it. Saying that, while you don't sanction further aggression, you aren't going to stop them from acting outside of the agreement isn't really going to strike reason in the rest of the Caldari people, especially those operating in the war zone.
Again, you are taking your analysis rather beyond what my statements have covered. I'm just saying that some of our pilots check the IGS about as often as they bother reading their mail. They show up for combat operations when our Fleet Commanders round them up from the bars or pry them from the arms of their favorite exotic dancers.
Simon Louvaki wrote: If your going to issue a statement on behalf of your alliance then your alliance members should be on board and honor that declaration. If they don't then they should be punished. Your organization may not seek to 'control' them but this isn't about control, its about unity. If you can't guarantee that they will follow this memorandum then you have no business appealing to the Caldari militia groups about a cease fire you can't and won't enforce.
I can respect this perspective on Alliance level leadership, but to be blunt that just isn't how [GMVA] is run or will ever be run. We have practically as many member Corporations as Pyre Falcon has pilots, for one thing. An organization with hundreds of active pilots needs different leadership than an organization with roughly a dozen. All due respect to Captain Khross, and the stand that he has made, but [-WTR-] is an organization under his Sole Proprietorship. If the only [GMVA] pilots who supported this were the ones who've posted in this thread that'd be triple the pilots recognizing our initiative as compared to his.
Simon Louvaki wrote: I find it extremely disturbing how you seem to acknowledge their right to continue to behave in a way that is contrary to their greater organizations expressed interests and simply call it 'the Gallente way'. I understand about preserving rights and freedom, but not in this capacity.
Please note, this isn't a dig at your organization or an attack, but a vocalization of my understanding based on what you just said.
If our differing cultural expectations weren't difficult for each other to comfortably assess our societies would hardly be in the position that we find ourselves in. It isn't the case that because this moratorium might not be universally adhered to by every individual pilot in our Alliance that the Alliance is making no effort to enforce its limitations. Our methods are simply not the ones you seem to expect. For one thing, punitive action taken against pilots that either through ignorance or desire to help their comrades in arms participate in operations not sanctioned under this moratorium is something that I would find utterly distasteful. I can respect their reasons for doing so, and just because I know that the majority of my peers feel as I do does not mean I feel those who dissent should simply fall in line or be punished. I hope that through mutual and respectful discourse I can bring them around to my point of view.
Much as I hope for relations between our two peoples to progress, actually. |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
899
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Posted - 2013.04.08 01:15:00 -
[63] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:To reiterate, we will not seek to take Enaluri, Akidagi, or any other Caldari system under this Moratorium. [...] We do not control our members so completely because we do not seek to. [...] Some individual pilots may very well disagree with this moratorium. So, while there may be [GMVA] tickers sparsely distributed among pilots seeking territorial gain (our pilots do get about, after all) that should not be the sole factor by which one evaluates this policy.
--==[X]==--
Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:That's some impressive hiring standards you got there Soter.
Desiderya wrote:Empty words it is, then.
Malcolm Khross wrote:If you cannot control your members then you have no business calling yourselves leaders and this declaration is worthless as it cannot and will not be enforced. ~Malcolm Khross
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Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
150
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Posted - 2013.04.08 01:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
Malcolm Khross wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:
Allow me to interject. First, let me be clear that while this Moratorium is in effect we will not be making "exceptions," flipping some Caldari systems and not others. The terms have been stated, and will be abided by until such time as the Moratorium is publicly rescinded. At no time have I characterized the terms of this Moratorium in conversation with you or anyone else as subject to the kind of manipulation as you describe in regards to currently held Caldari territory.
Really?I honored you for your integrity but it appears I was mistaken. You don't recall the following conversation, taken directly from a chat log involving you? [Chat Logs] I've emphasized the lines that are most relevant. So tell me again that you never once indicated in a conversation with me that your "moratorium" was subject to such "manipulation." I've called your bluff with hard evidence.
It seems you understood what you wanted to, not the point I was making. You've also conveniently left out context for those logs that would inform my interpretation of the statements. Either you missed that context originally, or you are willfully misrepresenting it now.
Pieter and I were discussing ongoing [GMVA] sorties into Enaluri, and our justification for continuing those operations. As I said then, it is seen by [GMVA] to be of strategic benefit to tie down Caldari forces in defending their military assets. We draw a distinction between offensive operations against the Caldari Military, and operations seeking to control Caldari Territory.
Rinai Vero wrote: To be clear: GMVA will not consider itself under obligation to Cease Fire in any theater of war. Offensive operations targeting Caldari Military Installations will continue, and any Caldari held star systems in recognized Gallente regions of Placid, Essence, or Verge Vendor will continue to be targets for liberation. We will continue to be vigilant in defending the liberty and livelihood of the many Gallente, Intaki and other Federation Citizens living throughout the warzone.
I made clear from the beginning, and will repeat myself again here: We will conduct operations in Caldari space against State Military Installations and Outposts. We will not take "Enaluri, then Akidagi" or any other Caldari systems. Such moves will not be justified by "new threats to our empire that must be captured to keep our people safe." |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
476
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 01:37:00 -
[65] - Quote
Thank you for your expedient response Ms. Vero, I wish you luck in your initiative. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
150
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Posted - 2013.04.08 01:40:00 -
[66] - Quote
Malcolm Khross wrote:Rinai Vero wrote:To reiterate, we will not seek to take Enaluri, Akidagi, or any other Caldari system under this Moratorium. [...] We do not control our members so completely because we do not seek to. [...] Some individual pilots may very well disagree with this moratorium. So, while there may be [GMVA] tickers sparsely distributed among pilots seeking territorial gain (our pilots do get about, after all) that should not be the sole factor by which one evaluates this policy. --==[X]==-- Rhiannon Dellacorte wrote:That's some impressive hiring standards you got there Soter. Desiderya wrote:Empty words it is, then. Malcolm Khross wrote:If you cannot control your members then you have no business calling yourselves leaders and this declaration is worthless as it cannot and will not be enforced.
Apparently its no wonder I'm repeating myself so often. I recognize and respond to your concerns respectfully, but all you're willing to do is recycle your own talking points. |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
902
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Posted - 2013.04.08 02:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:It seems you understood what you wanted to, not the point I was making. You've also conveniently left out context for those logs that would inform my interpretation of the statements. Either you missed that context originally, or you are willfully misrepresenting it now.
I removed an extremely long conversation before hand involving you, myself, Pieter Tuulinen, Korsavius and Edaine Numenor because there is a limit to how much I can post at one time. I left as much of the context as I could, the statements were very singular.
Rinai Vero wrote:We draw a distinction between offensive operations against the Caldari Military, and operations seeking to control Caldari Territory.
You're still missing the point being made. Let us assume you indeed didn't answer in the affirmative to my assertion that you were justifying taking systems and defending systems you've already taken and were simply stating affirmation to...something else. The point remains that your declaration cannot be enforced. You have stated yourself that you do not control your members and that members of your alliance will be involved in operations to claim State territory if they want to because you do not limit the freedoms of your individual pilots.
Your lack of planning or support is irrelevant. Pilots that do not heed, willfully ignore or are simply too ignorant to understand the commands of your alliances leadership have zero business serving in a military outfit and it is your duty as leaders to ensure that your directives are enforced and/or those breaching them are disciplined properly.
Excusing them with "well we don't seek to control our members" or "it's too many people to command" is farcical and impotent.
The point being made and the point still being made is that your declaration is hollow and empty because the actions of your pilots in space do not reflect your announcement and you have admitted your inability or lack of desire to enforce it. It's not me hearing what I want to hear, it's me hearing exactly what you've said.
Rinai Vero wrote:I made clear from the beginning, and will repeat myself again here: We will conduct operations in Caldari space against State Military Installations and Outposts. We will not take "Enaluri, then Akidagi" or any other Caldari systems. Such moves will not be justified by "new threats to our empire that must be captured to keep our people safe."
You will simply assault military assets and make systems vulnerable so that others can do so, including pilots under your banner if they choose to do so.
A brilliant PR move, really.
Useless and empty otherwise.
But a brilliant PR move.
~Malcolm Khross
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Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
902
|
Posted - 2013.04.08 02:14:00 -
[68] - Quote
You know what, Vero?
I will play the fool this once and accept that perhaps I am reading more into your declaration than is actually there and I will take it on faith that your alliance will do its best to enforce its directives without breaching its operational standards and principles.
It is quite possible I am judging you too harshly so I will withdraw and watch, truth is revealed to the observant. ~Malcolm Khross
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2554
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Posted - 2013.04.08 05:08:00 -
[69] - Quote
This sort of thing can lead to peace. Good job. |
Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
301
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Posted - 2013.04.08 13:17:00 -
[70] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:This sort of thing can lead to peace. Good job.
I wouldn't count on Soter being able to lead to anything, much less peace. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |
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Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
818
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Posted - 2013.04.09 02:11:00 -
[71] - Quote
Peace won't be found from either side so long as you're too insistent on throwing snide remarks and scoring points with cheap insults. Infact I question if some of you care for peace at all, if so why are you here?
Swallow pride and meet the other side at the table, or make your intention clear that you do not seek peace and cease the pointless circus that the rest of us have to bear witness to. Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
480
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:36:00 -
[72] - Quote
Trust must be earned Msr. Marellus.
It wasn't' but a few weeks ago Msr. Soter was only advocating peace after the Gallente Federation had the upper hand and Caldari Prime was firmly in the Federations hands and up until the Battle of Caldari Prime his palms were firmly pounding the war drum. In earnest, I don't see how anyone is in position to postulate the Caldari militias willingness for peace when Villore Accords leadership is refusing to enforce their proposition on their individual pilots yet expecting the Caldari to take their word that they mean good will.
Personal opinion and good will is irrelevant in this situation. Words must be backed up with action. Or in this case, inaction.
With all do respect to Ms. Vero and her stride towards peace and understanding between our two races and nations, her organizations stance makes it hard to trust, and this is merely from an outside perspective. Imagine yourself on the other end of the deal, being told you should show your support if you wish for peace but at the same time being informed that individual action will not be punished if their pilots so chose to ignore their organizations stated policy. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Caellach Marellus
Aideron Technologies
818
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Posted - 2013.04.09 02:39:00 -
[73] - Quote
Trust and such is another matter that comes as both sides sit down and begin to discuss.
Before that, the hostilities need to cease here, how can you talk of peace while spending your every other word insulting your counterpart?
Doesn't take trust to refrain from pointless point scoring hostility Enjoy your gaming.
http://northern-goblin.blogspot.com |
Simon Louvaki
Sengokuvaa Kaltiovon
480
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 02:42:00 -
[74] - Quote
You are of cource correct Msr. Marellus. It doesn't require trust, it requires respect. Unfortunately there seems to be an void in that between most bitter enemies, and again, its hard to take a foes word especially given the terms laid out. It would do the proposition a great service if the Villore Accords was speaking on behalf of its corporations and members at large and assuring that the deal would be followed through and violations would be punished.
Its hard to take them seriously when they refuse to punish individual members of their organization, and hard to blame the other side from being doubtful due to it. The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word.
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21 |
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
261
|
Posted - 2013.04.09 03:49:00 -
[75] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Trust and such is another matter that comes as both sides sit down and begin to discuss.
Before that, the hostilities need to cease here, how can you talk of peace while spending your every other word insulting your counterpart?
Doesn't take trust to refrain from pointless point scoring hostility
Discussion is best left to the politicians and legitimate corporate representatives of the CEP insofar as peace between the State and Federation are concerned for they are authorized to do so.
This action by the Villore Accords, a private military contractor of the FDU, is merely nothing more than an empty gesture that achieves little since it is rather clear they are unable to actually enforce their position due to a lack of leadership, professionalism and discipline among its ranks. Do not discount Caldari as fools who will sell what we value cheaply for even cheaper words.
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
836
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Posted - 2013.04.09 04:15:00 -
[76] - Quote
Simon Louvaki wrote:You are of cource correct Msr. Marellus. It doesn't require trust, it requires respect. Unfortunately there seems to be an void in that between most bitter enemies, and again, its hard to take a foes word especially given the terms laid out. It would do the proposition a great service if the Villore Accords was speaking on behalf of its corporations and members at large and assuring that the deal would be followed through and violations would be punished.
Its hard to take them seriously when they refuse to punish individual members of their organization, and hard to blame the other side from being doubtful due to it.
Perhaps what is needed is a gesture of faith that overreaches the rather milquetoast offer here. This should be thought upon. |
Rinai Vero
Moira. Villore Accords
177
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:26:00 -
[77] - Quote
Malcolm Khross wrote:You know what, Vero?
I will play the fool this once and accept that perhaps I am reading more into your declaration than is actually there and I will take it on faith that your alliance will do its best to enforce its directives without breaching its operational standards and principles.
It is quite possible I am judging you too harshly so I will withdraw and watch, truth is revealed to the observant.
I've certainly admired your capacity for observation in the past. Particularly some of your analysis pertaining to the recent history of conflict between our peoples. I hope that you will keep in mind how often the efforts of those making genuine overtures for peace have been sabotaged by the actions of radicals, as you observed in regard to the Malkalen Station incident.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote: This action by the Villore Accords, a private military contractor of the FDU, is merely nothing more than an empty gesture that achieves little since it is rather clear they are unable to actually enforce their position due to a lack of leadership, professionalism and discipline among its ranks. Do not discount Caldari as fools who will sell what we value cheaply for even cheaper words.
At this point our initiative has at least achieved one purpose in eliciting reciprocal action on the part of Pyre Falcon Defense Combine. As for enforcement among the ranks of Villore Accords, I have been engaged in an ongoing effort to discuss and promote this proposal amongst our pilots. Universally I have found them to be supportive. Even those unaware of the ongoing political discussion have been refraining from attacking System Infrastructure simply for the reasons that suit our current strategic goals of defending Placid, Verge Vendor, and Essence. I am not aware of any unsanctioned operations that have taken place, and I have been asking.
That said, it is clear that despite [GMVA] policy, numerous Caldari systems have fallen throughout the warzone. According to my inquiries these systems have been taken by hodgepodge fleets mostly consisting of FDU pilots unaffiliated with any of the major independent Gallente Militia entities. Myself and many others among the pilots and corporations of the Villore Accord find these actions to be counterproductive to the cause of peace and the defense of Gallente territory.
Our policy response to these developments is currently under consideration. Speaking in my individual capacity, I will make no effort to defend these systems from recapture by Caldari State forces. |
Julianus Soter
Moira. Villore Accords
113
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Posted - 2013.04.15 05:14:00 -
[78] - Quote
With the current military crisis abated and the Caldari Militia threat contained, I felt it necessary to respond with a complete explanation of the timeline of events and our response to them.
Rinai Vero, an authorized public relations representative on behalf of the Moira. Corporation and the Villore Accords as a whole, made a transmission to the IGS regarding an unprecedented initiative, to cease territorial conquest on both sides and maintain a constant demarkation line. This would benefit planetary populations and interstellar trade, and normalize relations.
Unfortunately, because of the nature of the faction militias, it is impossible to control or police this initiative within the Federal Militia. Likewise, the Caldari State Protectorate response ranged from tepid, to suspicious and hostile.
At minimum, the only positive response was the Pyre initiative. Unfortunately, as a far as reciprocations go, their initiative encompassed a minimal number of Caldari militia personnel. We were in the process of asking for the participation of large Caldari and Gallente alliances when information crossed our wires about the Enaluri military buildup.
This buildup was not some minor affair, there were clear swelling of capsuleers active inside the system, and with the Gorgon Empire, a sovereignty-owning entity, entering on the Caldari side of the war, working with Bloody Ronin Syndicate directly, a catastrophic shift in the war was about to occur.
As a bit of background, the Caldari/Gallente militia warzone is a careful balance of power, with very small differences in fleet strength on a day to day basis, and often times, equal exchanges of system control and combat victories. A massive influx of pilots to one side or the other, is a major escalation. That they would be haphazardly thrown to the frontline would seem to be an attempt at a surprise attack.
An attack launched just as we announced the halt focusing on system captures.
So, you can see, there was an unfortunate turn of events that was outside our control in this case. We have no interest in trying to maintain occupancy of vast swathes of Caldari low security systems. But this one system, next to our main bases of operations, became a focal point with the potential of a massive Caldari counter-attack. We could not let that happen and the defeats of previous months repeated.
We took action and announced it publicly on the IGS. We received criticism for this announcement. Perhaps I didn't fully explain the situation, perhaps the people wouldn't have accepted the explanation regardless.
The end result is, the Enaluri system has changed hands and the Caldari militia organizations inside the system have either been disbanded or redeployed.
We did what we needed to do to protect Federation citizens and systems from another "reconquista" of the area. Any such success on the Caldari State's part would strength Tibus Heth's position and jeapardize nascent peace-making initiatives between the State and Federation.
I hope this explanation helps, and let me know if you have any further questions.
Sincerely,
Julianus Soter |
Makoto Priano
Priano Trans-Stellar State Services
113
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Posted - 2013.04.15 06:46:00 -
[79] - Quote
Mr. Soter, I appreciate your review of this matter. However, I'm of the opinion that 'preventative invasion' is something of a misnomer, and a poor attempt to justify breach of a declaration that had been panned as ineffectual.
Please. Deal honestly with us, instead of pandering and sugar-coating your acts. |
Quinzel Nikulainen
Kokako Acquisitions
158
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Posted - 2013.04.15 08:07:00 -
[80] - Quote
What a load of vagary and spin.
Every one of us who has been touched by this 'Moratorium' is a bit more embarrassed for it.
Put the whole damn affair behind yourselves before this thread sticks around for long enough to burn the worth of GMVA's word into our minds. Ex-Kaalakiota citizen. Ex-Hyasyoda citizen. CEO of-áK+îKAK. Despite her corporate journey, Quinzel now subscribes to the leanings of the Practical bloc.-á |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine
902
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Posted - 2013.04.15 09:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Whilst the worst part about it is attempting to clothe aggression as an act of self-defence (Seriously, launching an attack and stealing a Caldari State system in order to fend off some purported attack on ANOTHER stolen system?) at least this time you've made the announcement yourself instead of further cheapening the reputation of a pilot who I respect greatly.
Poor Rinai Vero, who made the initial announcement, has been made to look like a laughing stock - something that a pilot of her dedication, competence and humanity should not have to endure. If you can't deal with your enemies fairly, if you can't cease your aggression against unarmed State civilians - at least you should treat your own pilots better than this. |
Malcolm Khross
Wiyrkomi Tactical Response Directive
961
|
Posted - 2013.04.15 10:48:00 -
[82] - Quote
Julianus Soter wrote: Rinai Vero, an authorized public relations representative on behalf of the Moira. Corporation and the Villore Accords as a whole, made a transmission to the IGS...
Vero, I owe you an apology for failing to realize that you were only acting on behalf of someone with infinitely less integrity than yourself.
Julianus Soter wrote:We did what we needed to do to protect Federation citizens and systems from another "reconquista" of the area. Any such success on the Caldari State's part would strength Tibus Heth's position and jeapardize nascent peace-making initiatives between the State and Federation.
Hot. Air. That is all you're good for, Soter.
You flagrantly disregard anything remotely resembling sincerity and integrity with hollow attempts at justification for your military advancement and occupation. You have no interest in securing peace, you have an interest in holding on to what you've taken and making sure you can claim "we tried to make peace" when the Caldari come to take back what is ours.
Anyone paying any attention can see that your words are hollow and your "initiative" was nothing more than a PR play. For the sake of those under your employ that actually do have a measure of integrity, I hope they find alternate employment or buy a controlling share and usurp your leadership.
~Malcolm Khross
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