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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2958
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've run trade window scams on occasions. One of the rarer and more profitable ones is when you manage to trick someone into accepting a trade first, and then change the price before accepting yourself. You can obtain some very expensive items quite cheaply this way.
The thing is, I consider this an exploit. I've no problem using the mechanic while it exists, but after seeing some newbies get taken by it and knowing how demoralizing it is to be "scammed" simply because the UI doesn't function as one would expect, it's time to publicly push for a change.
I recently took on a newbie who got into lowsec exploration. He did a great job learning the ropes and after a month made his first big score: a half-billion isk module. He took it to a trade hub, posted it on the market, and commented in local that he'd listed it under market value. A few minutes later, he was the victim of this scam. He petitioned it and was rebuffed. He filed a bug report and was ignored. Ultimately he decided to quit the game. Not because he'd been scammed--he knew that was a reality when he started--but because the scam was due to a client mechanic that doesn't work properly and that CCP ignores and dismisses as "normal gameplay".
So why do I care? Because CCP is purposely ignoring a broken game mechanic. When you're setting up a trade and you "accept" what you see on the screen, the other person SHOULD NOT be able to modify the deal without your acceptance being revoked. After all, that's what "accept" means. "I accept the terms as I see them" not "I accept unless the other guy decides to revise the terms at the last second, at which point I will be unable to stop the trade at the new terms."
As petitions and bug reports have failed to resolve this issue for those victimized by it (including those I've used it on) I'm taking this public in the hope that CCP will at the very least read and respond to it.
What I'd like to see happen: - The trade window be made into to what it's supposed to be. - Failing that, the trade window expressly state that it is NOT a secure method of trading - OR, CCP publicly state that they don't care when their UI is broken to the point that it costs them subscriptions. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1487
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
I completely agree that this is a broken UI mechanic that should be fixed. Professional bad guys were unfortunately not available so instead they sent me. |
Ifly Uwalk
Empire Tax Collection Agency
632
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Doesn't the green check mark go away when the other guy changes something in his trade window? |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1455
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:38:00 -
[4] - Quote
Add me to the list. I am surprised this has not been fixed by now.
/stopped using the trade window with other players long ago
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
438
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
It's not a bug, its to allow changin of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we load the server even more by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms?
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Eli Green
The Arrow Project
597
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I've run trade window scams on occasions
stopped reading here. wumbo |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Wow I never use the trade function with people I dont know. Now I know why. That is about the worst example of a trade window I have heard of.
That is pure sloppiness and laziness on CCP's end for trade window to function like this. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
438
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:42:00 -
[8] - Quote
If you don't like it, don't use it.
Use contracts. They are unscamable, oh wait..
All the whining about contracts used for scamming, all the changes made to contracts, you still fall for them because of one simple thing, lack of comprehension and patience.. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
Miilla wrote:It's not a bug, its to allow changing of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we put more load the server more load on you in effort by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms? Yes. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
438
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Lady Zarrina wrote:Miilla wrote:It's not a bug, its to allow changing of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we put more load the server more load on you in effort by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms? Yes.
That means every item you put in a trade window will have to be readed each time. I can have fun with that :)
Good idea :)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13481
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:47:00 -
[11] - Quote
GǪso rename it the Gǣexchange windowGǥ. vOv Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
397
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's a gimme to not use trade window with someone you don't know and trust.
What is hilarious is that an admitted scammer, who also admits to using the same screwed up mechanic to cheat people, is now saying it's bad because it affected someone he knew ingame.
OP really should reimburse everyone he scammed by cheating them with this screwed up mechanic.
Scammer Karma........... Nerf Goons
Nuke em from orbit....it's the only way to be sure. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Miilla wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Miilla wrote:It's not a bug, its to allow changing of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we put more load the server more load on you in effort by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms? Yes. That means every item you put in a trade window will have to be readed each time. I can have fun with that :) Good idea :) No if you actually understood the issue, it was after an Accept was issued. So yes. Good idea. Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
438
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Lady Zarrina wrote:Miilla wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Miilla wrote:It's not a bug, its to allow changing of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we put more load the server more load on you in effort by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms? Yes. That means every item you put in a trade window will have to be readed each time. I can have fun with that :) Good idea :) No if you actually understood the issue, it was after an Accept was issued. So yes. Good idea.
Accept was removed but he still hit accept anyway after the other party signalled accept, he should not be so hasty and learn patience.
Or use contracts if you are impatient but we will scam you there if you are not anyway.
Either way, you are screwed in this game if you have no patience or any kind of useful life skills. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
2387
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
I agree with the OP.
I'm fine with scamming the stupid, gullible or inebriated. All fair game.
But being able to scam because of a broken mechanic that is seemingly left in place simply to prove how 'hardcore' this game is, is just a poor decision by lazy devs.
Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
438
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
It is not an exploit, all the other party done was reset the terms and the accept flag went away then he signalled accept and your stupid player friend, accepted the new terms.
Never never rush the accept button, that is what he done. And he paid for it.
Tough totty.. |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
78
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Miilla wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Miilla wrote:Lady Zarrina wrote:Miilla wrote:It's not a bug, its to allow changing of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we put more load the server more load on you in effort by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms? Yes. That means every item you put in a trade window will have to be readed each time. I can have fun with that :) Good idea :) No if you actually understood the issue, it was after an Accept was issued. So yes. Good idea. Accept was removed but he still hit accept anyway after the other party signalled accept, he should not be so hasty and learn patience. Or use contracts if you are impatient but we will scam you there if you are not anyway. Either way, you are screwed in this game if you have no patience or any kind of useful life skills.
Well I see where an informed discussion will go here. But as long as you are having fun Miilla :) Allocate resources to POS improvement |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
13481
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ok, so people are calling it an issue and a broken mechanic, but unless something has changed very recently, the whole thing comes down to buyer inattention.
So what is the issue here? How is it broken? Vote Malcanis for CSM8. |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
438
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Posted - 2013.04.06 16:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
I know CCP removed the learning skill scrolls from the game but this is just ridiculous, Im ok with role playing and all that but just because the game has no learning skills doesnt mean you actually have to stop learning.
*facepalms* |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2960
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Posted - 2013.04.06 23:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
Miilla wrote:It's not a bug, its to allow changing of the trade terms.
Would you prefer we put more load the server more load on you in effort by having to close and reopen trade windows to adjust terms? Because the only other option is to force them to close the trade window. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2960
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Posted - 2013.04.06 23:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mistah Ewedynao wrote:It's a gimme to not use trade window with someone you don't know and trust.
What is hilarious is that an admitted scammer, who also admits to using the same screwed up mechanic to cheat people, is now saying it's bad because it affected someone he knew ingame.
OP really should reimburse everyone he scammed by cheating them with this screwed up mechanic.
Scammer Karma...........
I will use whatever broken mechanic CCP permits to exist in the game. I'm not big on e-honor. But that doesn't change the fact that it is a broken mechanic. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2960
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Posted - 2013.04.06 23:47:00 -
[22] - Quote
Miilla wrote:It is not an exploit, all the other party done was reset the terms and the accept flag went away then he signalled accept and your stupid player friend, accepted the new terms.
Wrong. I've tested it myself with alts. You can modify the isk amount and accept without the system revoking their acceptance. Effectively allowing one party to modify the "trade" without the approval of the other. It is the epitome of a broken game feature.
Miilla wrote:Grow a backbone, some chest hair and some brass. Go play the game and stop acting like you shoudl get everything handed to you on a silver platter each time. Not having fun? Find another game.
The game I pay for is a cold harsh universe called Eve online, that is how it was sold and markted. If you expect something else, you bought the wrong game. Move on and stop ruining it for the rest of us. You have no idea who I am if you think I'm at all interested in making Eve safer.
I want a bug fixed. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2960
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 23:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ok, so people are calling it an issue and a broken mechanic, but unless something has changed very recently, the whole thing comes down to buyer inattention.
So what is the issue here? How is it broken?
You have an expensive item. I open a trade window with you and set an isk amount in the trade. You drop the item in the window and click accept. Next thing you know, the number loses several zeroes and the trade closes with me accepting it.
Therein lies the broken-ness. One party can modify the deal at the last second without the other party having the ability to withdraw. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2960
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 23:50:00 -
[24] - Quote
Eli Green wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I've run trade window scams on occasions stopped reading here. Thanks for stopping by, glad you bothered to understand the issue I'm raising. Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Sakiya Shiratori
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:14:00 -
[25] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote: You have an expensive item. I open a trade window with you and set an isk amount in the trade. You drop the item in the window and click accept. Next thing you know, the number loses several zeroes and the trade closes with me accepting it.
I just tested this, it doesn't work. |
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
599
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Posted - 2013.04.07 01:19:00 -
[26] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Eli Green wrote:FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I've run trade window scams on occasions stopped reading here. Thanks for stopping by, glad you bothered to understand the issue I'm raising.
You're welcome. wumbo |
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
441
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Posted - 2013.04.07 08:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:Miilla wrote:It is not an exploit, all the other party done was reset the terms and the accept flag went away then he signalled accept and your stupid player friend, accepted the new terms. Wrong. I've tested it myself with alts. You can modify the isk amount and accept without the system revoking their acceptance. Effectively allowing one party to modify the "trade" without the approval of the other. It is the epitome of a broken game feature. Miilla wrote:Grow a backbone, some chest hair and some brass. Go play the game and stop acting like you shoudl get everything handed to you on a silver platter each time. Not having fun? Find another game.
The game I pay for is a cold harsh universe called Eve online, that is how it was sold and markted. If you expect something else, you bought the wrong game. Move on and stop ruining it for the rest of us. You have no idea who I am if you think I'm at all interested in making Eve safer. I want a bug fixed.
Then you are probably lagging on your client and didn't see the accept disappear. Seems to be a problem with your end.
What is the bug number you filed with repro steps so I can repro it here. |
Sturmwolke
392
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Posted - 2013.04.07 09:22:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP took years to fix contract scams that used to run rampant. People that falls for the contract scams nowadays are those that fails at reading and comprehension .... which is as it should be.
That said, the trade window UI is clunky and very basic. Older players tend to be very wary of direct trades due to the rampant scamming with it. You get the word "rampant" tacked on when the success rates are high and everyone with their children, nieces, nephews, moms, fathers, wives and husbands are doing it.
If you want to get CCP to move their ass to fix it (to be less vulnerable to such scams) , petition it every time and ratchet up the noise level high. Be prepared to do that for months/years. Historically, that's the only effective way to get them to fix things.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks Petition Blizzard
2972
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Posted - 2013.04.07 18:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
I've been unable to re-reproduce this issue. Apparently there's a trick to making it work consistently, but those few people I know who actively use it on a regular basis refuse to share what they know.
In any case, here's what I know about the process:
1) Scammer opens trade window with the mark and enters a value 2) The mark puts the item in the trade window and accepts 3) AFTER the accept button is clicked, the isk value changes and the trade window closes with the trade completed Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
Ayame Tao
72
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Posted - 2013.04.07 22:20:00 -
[30] - Quote
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:I've been unable to re-reproduce this issue. Apparently there's a trick to making it work consistently, but those few people I know who actively use it on a regular basis refuse to share what they know.
In any case, here's what I know about the process:
1) Scammer opens trade window with the mark and enters a value 2) The mark puts the item in the trade window and accepts 3) AFTER the accept button is clicked, the isk value changes and the trade window closes with the trade completed
IME: (a step you're missing) Caps for emphasis on the key parts to this scam, not for shouting ;)
1) Scammer opens trade window with mark and enters the correct full value. ** 2) BEFORE mark can place item in the trade window, scammer must change the figure and hit accept again. This takes a quick hand and practice. 3) mark has not noticed the value change, one zero off the end isn't always easy to see. They place the item and DON'T CHECK THE FIGURE CAREFULLY. They are looking at the item they are dragging (and don't notice the speedy change from step 2) and just see the green tick. 4) mark clicks accept thinking all is well.
Is how it works. Which is why CCP don't agree it's a bug. In all instances I've seen or known someone well enough to get a true story, this is what happens.
People need to recheck everything in the window is correct (items, ISK, even check descriptions so you don't get 'Bhaalgorn' scammed (where a Navy Apoc has the ship name changed to Bhaalgorn, and they look very similar in their picture)
Personally, I agree that it's low and they should add clearer displays for ISK (like they did to help contract scams when they added the amount in words) Maybe make the font much bigger and include proper deliniators for units (commas between each thousand) so it's much easier to read.
It's pretty low scamming noobs with this though. Scamming noobs is fairly despicable at any time. People who have been around and should know better, all very well. Let the noobs get half a clue before you fleece everything they own off them.
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