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RoCkEt X
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
11
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Posted - 2013.04.12 14:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Approximately 12 weeks ago PHEW's directors entered a discussion regarding new ways to pin supercapitals at login. As we're based in lowsec, the target could technically land and jump out to a waiting cyno. The progress we made in this discussion was both exciting and worrying.
I'll cut to the chase because you're all damn lazy.
I'll also start by saying that so far, PHEW has not made use of this mechanic - though we intended to, i'm posting this now because we've recieved intel that shows other entities (Yes PL, we mean you) are getting close to working it out - if they havnt already, and i'm an ***hole and don't want them to get any shiney kills :P
The discussion turned to the mechanics of logging in whilst in space. here's what you all already know: *You spawn 1mil km from your logoff spot at what i'll be calling the 'e-warp spot' for the duration of this post. *You cannot stop that warp. *You spawn at this location, regardless of whether you are logged out in a POS, or not. *You cannot cyno/jump out whilst your warp drive is active (even if you are not actually in warp) *The direction of the 1mil KM e-warp spot is random.
Now the interesting part: *On log-in, you cannot be tackled whilst your ship is aligning, not by bubbles (even though previous patch notes claim this has been changed - it has not), or by targeted scramblers. *If you use a HIC to tackle a titan at it's e-warp spot, the point turns on, but does absolutely nothing. *If shot whilst aligning to your log-out spot, you do take damage, you can be neuted etc.
The logical train of thought here is you now need to find a way to keep the target ship from warping from his 1mil km emergency spot, to his original log-out location - so.. YOU BUMP IT. 100mn stabber works best. :)
Some more interesting points: *If you fly a levi, your missiles do no damage whilst your warp drive is active. *You cannot light a cyno whilst your warp drive is active - so unless you have another char, you cant bring backup in. *You cannot abort your warp, so you can't change where your ship is trying to go - this makes bumping very easy, as the enemy only has to make sure you can't warp to where you logged out. *This mechanic works best if the target is in a POS when it logs out originally, because you can sit 2000km off the tower with your probing bump stabber cloaked - you know exactly what direction his ship wants to warp in - it also means you'll land in-front of the target when you warp @ 20km (for titan) or 10km (for supers).
How do we know it works? we tested it vs our own titans.
What ships does it work on? *ALL TITANS (does not work on ragnarok's if fit with nomad sets) *Supercarrier pilots with low skills (holding alts etc)
How can it be avoided? Fitting a MWD and activating it immediately overloaded for a single cycle in order to speed up warp on log-in.
Is it an exploit? We believe no, because based on CCP's patch notes (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335076#post1335076) there would be no need for bumps in nullsec. All our mechanic did was make this possible in lowsec.
However, it has since been confirmed that the above linked post is incorrect. a bubble will not stop you warping - bumps however will. Based on this, and the significant disadvantages to the pilot being attacked (not being able to stop warp etc) it is most likely an exploit.
I look forward to hearing your opinions on this, and CCP's clarification as to whether or not this is an exploit.
-Rocket X -PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS |
bufnitza calatoare
Nex Angelus. Unclaimed.
90
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
you trying to say that ships who log off in a pos warp off? |
RoCkEt X
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
12
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
bufnitza calatoare wrote:you trying to say that ships who log off in a pos warp off?
no, they don't... but log out, wait till you disappear, when you log back in... your ship will warp in from 1mil km... trust me... |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1755
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
I can see other counters to this tactic. Have an alt D-scan for probes before logging in the super. Have an alt quickly fleet up with the super, warp to it and web sling it. Have several friends on and kill anyone who shows up to kill the super.
This looks like a "several people working together can kill one person, so the counter is use several people on your side" case. I do not see it as an exploit, just another way to get fights and explosions in space. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
RoCkEt X
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
12
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:I can see other counters to this tactic. Have an alt D-scan for probes before logging in the super. Have an alt quickly fleet up with the super, warp to it and web sling it. Have several friends on and kill anyone who shows up to kill the super.
This looks like a "several people working together can kill one person, so the counter is use several people on your side" case. I do not see it as an exploit, just another way to get fights and explosions in space.
*probes are pre-launched and dragged off of d-scan range - your alt wouldnt see them... *session change means the stabber will land it's first bump before you can get the Super char in fleet and warp to it. *You can't web supers anyway you derp. *you're gonna need more than 'several friends' if someones trying to kill your supercap.
Jesus... has eve got even dumber? i didnt think it was possible :/ re-read the post. |
Uppsy Daisy
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
168
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
So you need:
1) Someone spamming D-Scan, waiting for a super to appear at the random million km off 'E-Spot' near a POS, then 2) When the Super appears they drag probes, pre-set up in the right formation and size to cover the POS that the super will be warping to 3) They hit scan, get the hit, warp to the super, then bump it.
I guess that could work. Though it will be pretty boring to sit there clicking D-Scan all day...
People will go to almost any length to kill a super tho.. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1755
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
You set the probes well ahead of time and hit scan once when you see the target log in on your watchlist. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
bufnitza calatoare
Nex Angelus. Unclaimed.
90
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
obvious tactic to counter this is... don't log in your super cap with anyone not blue in local or better yet.. anyone you don't trust. |
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
2814
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Posted - 2013.04.12 15:41:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah this works, It's been done several times already and I wasn't aware that it was actually a secret?
You have to either: 1) Force a super to log on (putting a gang of Vindicators a couple systems in front of their scouts usually works) 2) Know what time that super logs in (usually) and watch it.
To combat it, it's easy. 1) Don't be ********.
Also, as far as I'm aware rocket this isn't an exploit :) Look forward to seeing the titan kills |
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
217
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Posted - 2013.04.12 16:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Buhhdust Princess wrote: Also, as far as I'm aware rocket this isn't an exploit :) Look forward to seeing the titan kills
Things like this normally don't get ruled upon until they get abused.
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Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
300
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Posted - 2013.04.12 16:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
probably should get ruled as an exploit, imo as logging off at a pos is supposed to be 'safe'...
ships should just respawn at the pos, instead of at an ewarp spot .. or be insubstatitial at their ewarp spot so they can ewarp back to their logoff spot, imo, |
baltec1
Bat Country
5928
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 16:15:00 -
[12] - Quote
This is new? |
Chandaris
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
300
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Posted - 2013.04.12 16:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
i don't think it is tbh. |
Alekksander Geinesa
Hateful Munitions
13
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Posted - 2013.04.12 16:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
RoCkEt X wrote:Approximately 12 weeks ago PHEW's directors entered a discussion regarding new ways to pin supercapitals at login. As we're based in lowsec, the target could technically land and jump out to a waiting cyno. The progress we made in this discussion was both exciting and worrying. I'll cut to the chase because you're all damn lazy. I'll also start by saying that so far, *** PHEW has not made use of this mechanic*** - though we intended to, i'm posting this now because we've recieved intel that shows other entities (Yes PL, we mean you) are getting close to working it out - if they havnt already, and i'm an ***hole and don't want them to get any shiney kills :P The discussion turned to the mechanics of logging in whilst in space. here's what you all already know:*You spawn 1mil km from your logoff spot at what i'll be calling the 'e-warp spot' for the duration of this post. *You cannot stop that warp. *You spawn at this location, regardless of whether you are logged out in a POS, or not. *You cannot cyno/jump out whilst your warp drive is active (even if you are not actually in warp) *The direction of the 1mil KM e-warp spot is random. Now the interesting part:*On log-in, you cannot be tackled whilst your ship is aligning, not by bubbles (even though previous patch notes claim this has been changed - it has not), or by targeted scramblers. *If you use a HIC to tackle a titan at it's e-warp spot, the point turns on, but does absolutely nothing. *If shot whilst aligning to your log-out spot, you do take damage, you can be neuted etc. The logical train of thought here is you now need to find a way to keep the target ship from warping from his 1mil km emergency spot, to his original log-out location - so.. YOU BUMP IT. 100mn fleet stabber works best. :) - then bring another char in to make a cyno and bring backup to kill him - when he blows up (hopefully) his warp drive will still be active, trying to warp to his log-out spot at his POS or w/e :D Some more interesting points:*If you fly a levi, your missiles do no damage whilst your warp drive is active. *You cannot light a cyno whilst your warp drive is active - so unless you have another char, you cant bring backup in. *You cannot abort your warp, so you can't change where your ship is trying to go - this makes bumping very easy, as the enemy only has to make sure you can't warp to where you logged out. *This mechanic works best if the target is in a POS when it logs out originally, because you can sit 2000km off the tower with your probing bump stabber cloaked - you know exactly what direction his ship wants to warp in - it also means you'll land in-front of the target when you warp @ 20km (for titan) or 10km (for supers). How do we know it works? we tested it vs our own titans. What ships does it work on?*ALL TITANS (does not work on ragnarok's if fit with nomad sets) *Supercarrier pilots with low skills (holding alts etc) How can it be avoided?Fitting a MWD and activating it immediately overloaded for a single cycle in order to speed up warp on log-in. Is it an exploit?We believe no, because based on CCP's patch notes ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1335076#post1335076) there would be no need for bumps in nullsec. All our mechanic did was make this possible in lowsec. However, it has since been confirmed that the above linked post is incorrect. a bubble will not stop you warping - bumps however will. Based on this, and the significant disadvantages to the pilot being attacked (not being able to stop warp etc) it is most likely an exploit. If this is ruled within game rules - it effectively means, all you need to do to kill titans, is put 3 alts on a gate and camp it, letting his friends see you... and wait for him to log in. Manipulation and predictability at it's finest ;) I look forward to hearing your opinions on this, and CCP's clarification as to whether or not this is an exploit. -Rocket X -PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS P.S. All PHEW supers are fit with MWD's at logoff - so don't even try it :)
Wait, this is a secret? I thought this was SoP... I have been using this tactic for a while now... I guess I never shared it to the public cause I thought everyone else already knew.....
It generally works well as well, however it has blown up in my face a few times. For instance, we did this once, and thought all was good, and then of course your normal titan bridge super fleet was right on top of us.... I still to this day wonder if we were baited but some times people just have rapid response times.... after all it is a super carrier.
I think wat CCP needs to ask themselves, is:
Is the player suppose to be vulnerable when they are logging back in, and for this period have absolutely no control over their ship?
I personally feel that at no time should a player be able to loose their ship if they do not have control over all aspects of the vessel.... aka, if we could cancel warp I feel like this would be a fair and valid tactic. However, the fact that you can not cancel warp means that this is an unfair advantage to the attacking fleet... sense you can not light a Cyno to bring in back up, and also because session timers would always put you at a disadvantage, as far as response time goes.
However, I have never heard of this being an exploit.. nor have I ever gotten any problems out of it.
Can you petition CCP and say hey... they killed me cause I didnt have control of my ship? Sure maybe? Would you get reimbursed? Doubt it...
I feel like the mechanic needs to be adjusted to either not allow them to be warped to (kind of like ded space), or to allow them to regain control over their ship once they log in.
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Xen Solarus
Inner 5phere
364
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Posted - 2013.04.12 17:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Interesting, thanks for sharing, instead of going ahead and doing it till someone rules it an exploit.
I guess thats why everyone else hasn't mentioned it before. Post with your main, like a BOSS! |
Nariya Kentaya
Always Negative.
510
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 17:53:00 -
[16] - Quote
bufnitza calatoare wrote:obvious tactic to counter this is... don't log in your super cap with anyone not blue in local or better yet.. anyone you don't trust. Implying a level of intellgence for your average supercap pilot is above that of a lemming? im sorry, bu do you know how many supers ive watched log in and go RATTING while im troling through null in a SB gang (sometims in a BC gang, but SB's more often than not). te dotn freak out until i start talkin in local or decloak on grid with hem, ever managed to get kil thogh because ~7 people aint onna do much, and im not callin my old friends in goons/TEST to help, burned those bridges a long time agowhen i went WHs. |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2597
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 18:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
Questions:
What's the window of time from the appearance of the super in the system on login (assuming we see the super pilot appear in local) and the time it takes to scan it with combat probes?
Is this based on the amount of time it takes the super to align? How much time is that?
I imagine someone really up on their probing skills could do this easily, but what's the average AU range of the probes that can pick up a super ("warpable hit")? 16AU, 8 AU?
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Alekksander Geinesa
Hateful Munitions
16
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Posted - 2013.04.12 18:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Questions:
What's the window of time from the appearance of the super in the system on login (assuming we see the super pilot appear in local) and the time it takes to scan it with combat probes?
Is this based on the amount of time it takes the super to align? How much time is that?
I imagine someone really up on their probing skills could do this easily, but what's the average AU range of the probes that can pick up a super ("warpable hit")? 16AU, 8 AU?
You dont even need nearly max probing skills, you just need decent ones, and if in doubt throw the probing implants into your brain and you should be good to go.
Generally you have about 30 seconds total to get the whole operation off by the time that you see them apear in local or address book.
Sounds like a little bit, but you would be really surprised 30 seconds is a life time when you are in warp to get an SC lol. |
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3192
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 18:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
I like the fact that you are people using your brains. :) |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
7707
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 18:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
I could be wrong because I haven't verified it - but if the titan pilot logs on, hits dscan see probes, just quit your client, ship will try to warp sure but should still disappear under the normal timers, being bumped or not.
But ofc I have no idea, theory crafting here.
/c
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Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
250
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Posted - 2013.04.12 18:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Chribba wrote:I could be wrong because I haven't verified it - but if the titan pilot logs on, hits dscan see probes, just quit your client, ship will try to warp sure but should still disappear under the normal timers, being bumped or not.
But ofc I have no idea, theory crafting here.
/c
The old logoffski to the rescue! Not today spaghetti. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2011
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Posted - 2013.04.12 19:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:Chribba wrote:I could be wrong because I haven't verified it - but if the titan pilot logs on, hits dscan see probes, just quit your client, ship will try to warp sure but should still disappear under the normal timers, being bumped or not.
But ofc I have no idea, theory crafting here.
/c The old logoffski to the rescue!
I'm pretty sure this tactic was obliterated with the crimewatch 2.0 agression timer changes...
If your ship is in space, regardless if you are logged on or off, anyone can attack you creating a 15 minute agression timer that prevents your ship from despawining...
Safe logoff can't be done while in warp... and a normal logoff leaves a 60 second window to be attacked before your ship despawns... |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
156
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Its definitely a crappy mechanic whether an exploit or not.
Also another variation, could you wait for the supercap to log off, drag preset probes to the POS, pick it up on scan and warp to it before it dissapears. That way you would be able to sit at the SS and wait for it to log back on. |
Kamden Line
Serenity Prime Kraken.
154
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
The way to solve this, shockingly enough, is to allow pilots to stop themselves from E-Warping once they log back in. I understand that allows for easy safes, but honestly, you could just hit the "add place" button anyway before you warp.
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Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
1243
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:36:00 -
[25] - Quote
bufnitza calatoare wrote:obvious tactic to counter this is... don't log in your super cap with anyone not blue in local or better yet.. anyone you don't trust.
That's not always an option, but I'm sure you get that. If your FC says to log the damned thing in, you "should" log the damned thing in. Whether the alliance will reimburse the cost of that cap is another factor in your decision, obviously. "Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac |
RoCkEt X
Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
19
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Sexy Cakes wrote:Chribba wrote:I could be wrong because I haven't verified it - but if the titan pilot logs on, hits dscan see probes, just quit your client, ship will try to warp sure but should still disappear under the normal timers, being bumped or not.
But ofc I have no idea, theory crafting here.
/c The old logoffski to the rescue! I'm pretty sure this tactic was obliterated with the crimewatch 2.0 agression timer changes... If your ship is in space, regardless if you are logged on or off, anyone can attack you creating a 15 minute agression timer that prevents your ship from despawining... Safe logoff can't be done while in warp... and a normal logoff leaves a 60 second window to be attacked before your ship despawns...
this is correct, logging out won't save you.
and no, this has NEVER been used before, supers/titans have been killed at login, but never at their spawn point - thus far, they have all been killed at the spot where they logged off.
This thread is in response to PL attempting to pull it off, they just dont appear to have worked out the bumping part yet, but they arent stupid, it wouldnt have taken them long.
This thread refers to killing supers at their spawn point at login - the supercap pilot's inability to deactivate his own warp makes the pilot completely helpless, for example he has no control over the movement of his ship, and cannot light cynos if he has a gen fitted, if he's in nullsec he wouldnt be able to doomsday either.
Hence the questionable legality of this.
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iskflakes
403
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
It's a bad mechanic, everybody is agreed. - |
Silvara Nocturn
Nocturn Industries
26
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
Exploit or not it simply doesn't make sense you warp out of the safety of the pos.
Could u prevent this by ejecting from it? |
iskflakes
403
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:06:00 -
[29] - Quote
Silvara Nocturn wrote:Exploit or not it simply doesn't make sense you warp out of the safety of the pos.
Could u prevent this by ejecting from it?
You can't eject while in warp. - |
Jonasan Mikio
Hateful Munitions
4
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Silvara Nocturn wrote:Exploit or not it simply doesn't make sense you warp out of the safety of the pos.
Could u prevent this by ejecting from it?
Eject... from a 30b isk ship..... . the funny part would be if it warped out anyways... |
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