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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
10
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:58:00 -
[91] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.
Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.
Simple:
We're not changing anything but what we posted in the initial post. That's all we have time for. We'll look at the rest later. We'll test whether 15% should be 14% when it hits sisi. |
Kethry Avenger
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
60
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 23:06:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.
Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.
Well I just started a thread here about crystals.
Would love your or Fozzie's thoughts on a change like that? Which I blatantly copied off multiple people just fleshed out a bit more.
Is there any discussion of a module teircide initiative in the future? At the very least for weapon systems? Not just lasers.
For example having some guns in each system be better at tracking vs damage vs range vs alpha?
And I still strongly believe that it is ridiculous that the Oracle can fit Tach IIs no problem and still no T1 BS can fit them without using a fitting mod or rig... |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
92
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Posted - 2013.04.12 23:13:00 -
[93] - Quote
Good start but after crunching some quick numbers could use a little more love but still good start Oderint Dum Metuant |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
727
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 23:36:00 -
[94] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.
Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing.
So you might nerf amarr's crutch that is scorch at some point?
Because i think scorch really skews all efforts at balance work.
Amarr can't be truly balanced while that one crystal keeps making its ships look better than they really are. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
66
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Posted - 2013.04.12 23:41:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Such an exciting week here on features and ideas! I siggest you stop taking these pills. Overdose may kill you, and likely sooner, than later. |
Liarali
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.12 23:45:00 -
[96] - Quote
While you're looking at the large weapon systems.. maybe remove the requirement to train small/med to 5 to use large T2 weapons? This would fit nicely with your modifications to the requirements of battleships in favor of specialisation. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
122
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Posted - 2013.04.12 23:46:00 -
[97] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.
Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing. So you might nerf amarr's crutch that is scorch at some point? Because i think scorch really skews all efforts at balance work. Amarr can't be truly balanced while that one crystal keeps making its ships look better than they really are. Please, this is not the "Bash Amarr" thread. |
Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2013.04.13 00:27:00 -
[98] - Quote
I suppose a question we should ask Rise and Fozzie, is do they intend the Apoc, Abaddon, and Arma, to be pulse platforms.
Maybe thats why they refuse to let us fit T2 tachs with max skills. As has been shown already even with the update to tachs, they take more powergrid than the apoc has with nothing else fitted! Maybe the devs are just trying to tell us "No! don't put tachs on amarr battleships!".
If this is the devs position, it would help us a lot if they would just come out and SAY IT!
If the devs intend that the ONLY ships that should use tachs are the nightmare and oracle, then just tell us. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
123
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Posted - 2013.04.13 00:46:00 -
[99] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote:I suppose a question we should ask Rise and Fozzie, is do they intend the Apoc, Abaddon, and Arma, to be pulse platforms.
Maybe thats why they refuse to let us fit T2 tachs with max skills. As has been shown already even with the update to tachs, they take more powergrid than the apoc has with nothing else fitted! Maybe the devs are just trying to tell us "No! don't put tachs on amarr battleships!".
If this is the devs position, it would help us a lot if they would just come out and SAY IT!
If the devs intend that the ONLY ships that should use tachs are the nightmare and oracle, then just tell us. You forgot the Bhaal and the Paladin :P |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
123
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 00:48:00 -
[100] - Quote
But yes, it is VERY dissapointing that the only tech 1 hull of the entire Amarr line that can fit Tachs and still be able to use it's other slots without first immediately throwing on things to grant it more PG is the Oracle. Am I missing something, or is the only ship we're meant to try and snipe with and not otherwise gimp the fitting options for this hull? |
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Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
34
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Posted - 2013.04.13 00:57:00 -
[101] - Quote
Pelea Ming wrote:Shinzhi Xadi wrote:I suppose a question we should ask Rise and Fozzie, is do they intend the Apoc, Abaddon, and Arma, to be pulse platforms.
Maybe thats why they refuse to let us fit T2 tachs with max skills. As has been shown already even with the update to tachs, they take more powergrid than the apoc has with nothing else fitted! Maybe the devs are just trying to tell us "No! don't put tachs on amarr battleships!".
If this is the devs position, it would help us a lot if they would just come out and SAY IT!
If the devs intend that the ONLY ships that should use tachs are the nightmare and oracle, then just tell us. You forgot the Bhaal and the Paladin :P
I have a mission fit paladin, and with max skills + genolution implants, T2 tachs still take so much PG that I can't fit a faction rep and MJD. So I disagree with you on Paladin.
Bhaalgorn, I can't comment on, haven't flown it much. |
Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2013.04.13 01:23:00 -
[102] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Regolis... You're significantly overlooking the other benefits of lasers.... Like ammo usage. Plus Amarr ships tend to have more powergrid to fit the larger guns.
By all means argue that lasers use too much cap, but suggesting they should have the same usage as Hybrids is bonkers. lmao Abaddon has exactly same PG as Mealstorm, while 1400 and sheild tank requires much less PG Than Beam/Armor Just saying. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4559
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 01:25:00 -
[103] - Quote
This is an excellent change, although I'm not entirely sure if the beam changes are actually enough. Maybe -15% PG on Tachyons? Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Naso Aya
EVE University Ivy League
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 01:35:00 -
[104] - Quote
I'm stealing from reddit, but with the most recent changes, apparently Tachyons will be 1-2% above the PWG on the Abaddon. Not too different from 1400s on the Mael, though it'd be nice to be slightly under instead of over, of course. 15% would make the Abaddon much better at fitting Tachs than the Mael at fitting 1400s- though whether that's good or bad is up to CCP of course.
I didn't do the math, so I'm not sure on the numbers. |
Jack C Hughes
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 01:38:00 -
[105] - Quote
these changes ARE good.. but I am still wishing I could have a 6 turrets + 7.5% damage bonus Amarr ship, fit Tachs, go and snipe. problems solved. Just saying |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
727
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 02:10:00 -
[106] - Quote
Jack C Hughes wrote:these changes ARE good.. but I am still wishing I could have a 6 turrets + 7.5% damage bonus Amarr ship, fit Tachs, go and snipe. problems solved. Just saying
Not as many pretty lights. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Crash Lander
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
40
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Posted - 2013.04.13 02:38:00 -
[107] - Quote
Shinzhi Xadi wrote: I have a mission fit paladin, and with max skills + genolution implants, T2 tachs still take so much PG that I can't fit a faction rep and MJD. So I disagree with you on Paladin.
Bhaalgorn, I can't comment on, haven't flown it much.
This is indeed the case. However the problem is the Paladin not Tachs. I've brought this up a few times and that ship as a whole needs needs to be reworked as a real viable alternative to Nightmare and to some degree napoc.. I'm looking forward to that in the next tiercide pass.
Tachs properly fit on a nightmare/bhaalgorn with enough PG to spare to properly use the utility highs. (Not that Bhaalgorn is intended for that sort of use, just saying it can do it). |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
105
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 03:15:00 -
[108] - Quote
Good change, no complaints...for once.
Can you do the same thing for medium beams and medium rails please? Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Wenthrial Solamar
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
8
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 03:25:00 -
[109] - Quote
Good Change, Will be on Sisi as soon as it goes live to play with it, theory crafting says it may need more adjustment.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
576
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 06:03:00 -
[110] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive... Not I, you just gave me what I asked for .. light at the end of the tunnel. Life with current ammo/guns will carry on, but now I/we know that it will at least be discussed at a later date as time allows.
PS: I used YtterbiumGÖÑFozzie when it was just the two, how the hell do I account for the menage-a-trois now that you have joined their merry band? Fozzie-gets- Rise-out-of-Ytterbium? or Fozzie-gives-Ytterbium-a-Rise?
Pelea Ming wrote:Please, this is not the "Bash Amarr" thread. You misread his post and misunderstood his meaning I think. Scorch has been so good for us (laser users) that it has allowed us to interact with (ie. kill them) the people around us like fully able folk, hence the term "crutch" (leg-braces might be more accurate but not not as short or globally understood). If you are a regularly laser user then think about what ammo you pack when going out the door and ask yourself if that is not a sad state of affairs. Six or seven out of 10 crystals (T1+T2) are so rarely used that one could remove them from game entirely without more than a handful of people even noticing.
Scorch is so good that a kiting trend emerged, using ships that has no business kiting such as the shield Harbinger and Omen (old) culminating with the *First in History* Amarr ship designed specifically for kiting and nothing but, the Omen (new).
Could easily sustain a reduction in tracking or damage without hurting much, provided options exist to change to when the hurt does come .. that is what a crystal/gun revamp could do, a revamp that has been all but promised for the next years (ie.SoonishGäó (further out than SoonGäó)). |
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Boris Amarr
Viziam Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2013.04.13 06:07:00 -
[111] - Quote
SUPER !!!!
What about -5% powergrid need for Large Beam Lasers? |
Lillith Sakata
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:29:00 -
[112] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Such an exciting week here on features and ideas! We are continuously making adjustments around the new battleships, both based on our own assessments and on your feedback. This topic is partly the result of that feedback, and also partly due to more internal testing and discussion. We feel convinced that in their currently proposed state, Amarr battleships would have likely caused problems for lower skillpoint pilots trying to earn a living in Eve. There were many avenues we could have chosen to address this problem, including a re-design of the Apocalypse, but we feel very happy with it's direction and wanted to keep it if possible. So, instead we are proposing the following: -10% capacitor need for Large Pulse Lasers -20% capacitor need for Large Beam Lasers -10% powergrid need for Large Beam LasersThis also acts as a continuation of CCP Fozzie's work on energy turrets during Cruiser Tiericide which you can look at here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155001&find=unreadJust like the Battleships themselves, public testing will be helpful in showing whether or not these changes are on target. Thanks for all of your input! CCP Rise
Still need less cap use. Especially with our main battleship sniper platform / ratting ship getting seriously HOSED on cap -- You reduced the cap on the Apoc AND killed its bonus to cap use. Lasers need a comparable cap reduction, including pulse.
Either that or buff the Cap recharger quite a bit... already have to run 2 rigs and 3 cap rechargers to make it a viable PvE ship. |
Ayla Illat
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 07:51:00 -
[113] - Quote
+1! Looking good!
Though I do wonder... would the recent changes to energy turrets make it possible to slap lasers on non-Amarr hulls? |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
576
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 08:01:00 -
[114] - Quote
Ayla Illat wrote:+1! Looking good!
Though I do wonder... would the recent changes to energy turrets make it possible to slap lasers on non-Amarr hulls? You too young to remember the awesomeness that was the Laser Myrmidon?
This is an effort to alleviate some of the problems that arise by axing that universally hated laser cap "bonus", ships designed for lasers generally have stronger grids and larger caps and some were struggling even with the -50% bonus. So by all means, if you have to cap/grid to burn and the slots to drive them then go ahead (Laser myrm needed a medium injector for guns alone ). Changes would have to massively greater than this to create a scenario where lasers can be swapped for racial guns willy-nilly like we have seen (and still see) with projectiles and a lesser extent blasters. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
730
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 09:13:00 -
[115] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:CCP Rise wrote:For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive... Not I, you just gave me what I asked for .. light at the end of the tunnel. Life with current ammo/guns will carry on, but now I/we know that it will at least be discussed at a later date as time allows. PS: I used YtterbiumGÖÑFozzie when it was just the two, how the hell do I account for the menage-a-trois now that you have joined their merry band? Fozzie-gets- Rise-out-of-Ytterbium? or Fozzie-gives-Ytterbium-a-Rise? Pelea Ming wrote:Please, this is not the "Bash Amarr" thread. You misread his post and misunderstood his meaning I think. Scorch has been so good for us (laser users) that it has allowed us to interact with (ie. kill them) the people around us like fully able folk, hence the term "crutch" (leg-braces might be more accurate but not not as short or globally understood). If you are a regularly laser user then think about what ammo you pack when going out the door and ask yourself if that is not a sad state of affairs. Six or seven out of 10 crystals (T1+T2) are so rarely used that one could remove them from game entirely without more than a handful of people even noticing. Scorch is so good that a kiting trend emerged, using ships that has no business kiting such as the shield Harbinger and Omen (old) culminating with the *First in History* Amarr ship designed specifically for kiting and nothing but, the Omen (new). Could easily sustain a reduction in tracking or damage without hurting much, provided options exist to change to when the hurt does come .. that is what a crystal/gun revamp could do, a revamp that has been all but promised for the next years (ie.SoonishGäó (further out than SoonGäó)).
Give this man a cookie!
And yes i don't think amarr should be nerfed through nerfing scorch.
I think amarr needs scorch to be nerfed so that they can be balanced more evenly, instead of having a Crutch covering up their deformity. BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Ryan Easte
Kangaroo Ate my baby Orchestrated Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.04.13 09:18:00 -
[116] - Quote
@CCP Rise Thank you for addressing this, its better than what I had feared.
Supported. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
253
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:22:00 -
[117] - Quote
I disagree with this change Fozzie and Rise.
Lasers were meant to be more powerful on the DPS front, have instant ammo change and have great optimal to go with that, but have large trade offs via near non existant falloff and okish tracking and being demanding on the cap and pg.
The latter two have generally previously been covered by the Amarr ships having plentiful PG and the best capacitor amounts in game (some exceptions and some ships certainly have been lacking).
I feel this change will see lasers used slightly more on other ships, and dilute some of the lovely racial flavouring that makes the ships of this game interesting.
Homogenisation is not a good thing. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
927
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:23:00 -
[118] - Quote
as a large beam user, i am selfishly pleased with the change. on the other hand, from my experience, large hybrids, especially rails, suffer from very similar issues. you should take a closer look at the relationship between the two.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
927
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
Buzzmong wrote:Homogenisation is not a good thing. worth quoting, please keep it in mind during your balance rampage.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1275
|
Posted - 2013.04.13 14:36:00 -
[120] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Buzzmong wrote:Homogenisation is not a good thing. worth quoting, please keep it in mind during your balance rampage. Or at least take into consideration an individualization iteration after everything is balanced, building up on the established solid foundation. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
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