Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 .. 27 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 37 post(s) |
Lord Zim
2373
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:05:00 -
[541] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I also doubt you would agree that EVEMon's cache scraping function should violate the EULA. Personally, I'm still wondering what functions cache scraping provides which actually constitutes cheating, and what sort of cheating is being done which isn't caught by catchall phrases such as "illegal to modify the client" or "illegal to automate tasks towards the client", thus rendering the whole cache scraping point moot. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4610
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:19:00 -
[542] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I also doubt you would agree that EVEMon's cache scraping function should violate the EULA. Personally, I'm still wondering what functions cache scraping provides which actually constitutes cheating, and what sort of cheating is being done which isn't caught by catchall phrases such as "illegal to modify the client" or "illegal to automate tasks towards the client", thus rendering the whole cache scraping point moot. If CCP says that simple cache scraping will not be enforced, then the answer is "none". So yes, the cache scraping point is moot, especially since CCP's left hand doesn't seem to talk much to its right hand about providing alternatives for its customers. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Lord Zim
2373
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:28:00 -
[543] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Lord Zim wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:I also doubt you would agree that EVEMon's cache scraping function should violate the EULA. Personally, I'm still wondering what functions cache scraping provides which actually constitutes cheating, and what sort of cheating is being done which isn't caught by catchall phrases such as "illegal to modify the client" or "illegal to automate tasks towards the client", thus rendering the whole cache scraping point moot. If CCP says that simple cache scraping will not be enforced, then the answer is "none". So yes, the cache scraping point is moot, especially since CCP's left hand doesn't seem to talk much to its right hand about providing alternatives for its customers. As I've said earlier in this thread, I don't trust that they won't have some "misunderstanding" against someone, especially given the fact that they're saying, yet again, that cache scraping isn't going to be punished under the EULA (yet), shortly after someone in the security group apparently has no problems saying that any cache scraping is illegal and has always been illegal. That's because of another left hand not talking to the right hand situation, and down that path lies tears.
After all, what are the chances that the customer support guy (or GM) is going to believe you when you say "I haven't cheated, why am I being punished as a cheater?"? I'm going to go with "pretty much none", since I'm sure even those who actually do bot will say "I don't bot, what gives?" when they get caught/punished. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.
RIP Vile Rat |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:39:00 -
[544] - Quote
A bit different question then. Like most big alliances im thinking about creating unified Intel page. How - by reading txt files created by EVE ( chat logs ) . This will not connect to eve in any possible way - just read file that is created by it. Will this be baned?
To be honest - right now i don't know if i can have : - Neatbeans - VS - AHK - VirtualBox - (...) ...installed on my pc i use them for my work - so probably i will have to resign from eve - it will not feed my family - but my work does.
Hell, i could try to run it on my second PC - but i have linux there. Wine should be enough ... will it be banable? Because i simply don't know how you intend to monitor my Linux. I have there more "strange" software than on my win PC.
Please someone from CCP respond - because i don't know - do i have to move to Linux or stop subscription. |
virm pasuul
Viziam Amarr Empire
19
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:45:00 -
[545] - Quote
This thread needs to be closed. It's a clusterf*****k of self inflicted fear uncertainty doubt and what must be deliberate mis interpretation and wilful lack of understanding. It servers no purpose other than to increase tinfoil hat sales - I suspect the goons, don't they own the tinfoil moons?
CCP have made themselves clear. If you are capable of understanding the CCP message then continue cache scraping for purposes not against the spirit of the ELUA.
If you are all in a woeful tizzy maelstorm of sky falling down, and quitting eve. Then just uninstall whatever 3dd party software you are using, and get yerself off down to see the nurse for some meds before a nice peaceful nap. Amd stop worrying.
I swear some people get off on worrying - and board lawyering mixed with a supersized dose of lack of comprehension . |
seth Hendar
I love you miners
43
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:54:00 -
[546] - Quote
None ofthe Above wrote:seth Hendar wrote:Lallante wrote:seth Hendar wrote:as a RL lawyer, you should be aware that this is dependent of the countrys, and in france, if CCP ban someone with no reason, said person can fill a lawsuit and will win, because of customer protective laws (btw, EULA are of no value at all in France). Incorrect. While a EULA might not be legally enforceable as a contract, that doesn't prevent CCP from refusing access to its services to whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes. At best consumer protection law might get you a refund of unused, pre-purchased subscription time (doesnt apply if you use ISK bought plexs), which will be vastly less than any legal fees incurred, so good luck with that. enlighten me. EULA is of no value at all in france Just reread his paragraph. How would France force an unban? they wouldn't, but CCP will have to pay many RL money, and i mean big time |
GreenSeed
266
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 08:54:00 -
[547] - Quote
why do people still insist that eve-mon is doing cache scrapes?
are you guys new on this game? years ago there was a huge ruckus with the cache and it was agreed that pulling market information was ok, they even made the client do market dumps in plain text as opposed to the old garbled cache format.
market dumps are even done in a separate folder, its not even used as cache by the game. they are just tab formatted market dumps.
so please, stop spreading misinformation. no market uploader touches the cache of the game, only market dumps.
and claiming they will ban people who upload market dumps that the game overtly does for no other purpose than to allow that specific use, is a silly as saying they will ban all miners because the mining lasers re-cycle automatically, even when a miner is on the next room reading a book.
cache scrapping is a bad thing, we all get it, and we all understood it for the last 5 or 6 years. because cache scrapping was used in the past to:
- know which ship just entered system without having it on grid, probed or even on dscan. - create a dummy bookmark to warp to, without having that bookmark, or a warpin on those coordinates.
and has been recently used to:
- know what text is entered on which field in game. <- this is why they banned that E-Uni dude.
i am honestly surprised by the fact CCP employees don't seem to be aware that years ago they modified the client cache system in a way that made the client dump text information from the in-game market.
they don't seem to know that they even added code to the IGB to allow items to be loaded from it...
honestly im baffled... is it really that hard to pick up a phone and call someone who worked years ago in CCP and ask them "hey men, why is the client creating a text file every time an item is searched for in the market, and why is that file never, ever accessed again by the client? why is it plain text? why is it time coded? why is said file even created when the client does not use it as cache of the items information, and asks the server for updated information every time that item is searched for?
there's no need to make a half assed claim like " we will only ban cache scrapping if its used to bot or something against the TOS" all they need to say is "ehhh.... the market dumps are not cache."
cache is model information, textures, input fields, including even information in the region of the RAM the game has assigned. you cant access that information... in fact, if you live in the US that's actually illegal, as in "omg i need a lawyer" illegal, and you have your congressmen to thank for that. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:04:00 -
[548] - Quote
This is not about cache scratching - this is because CCP is going in the wrong way. Ok i know bots are bad - and you have to brake this - but instead of making them unusable on game level - CCP is monitoring our PC.
To be honest - if you put some indexing software running on your PC - it could try to index also content of eve cache.
Will THIS get you banned?
I'm kind of programmer - i don't have education in this direction - every thing i know i learned by myself , mostly by mistakes - and hours spent on fixing them.
I know that most of software i use interacts one with other running aps - sometimes on level most of the people are not aware of. For almost 2 years i was able to hold myself from "creating" something that will interact with a game - because i know - that this will kill all the pleasure of playing it. ( the reason i stopped playing Ultima Online )
And now someone could ban me because i have some strange software running on my PC?
OMG - I HAVE SOMETHING THAT interacts directly with EVE. After running EVE clients i run my own app that rearranges/ resizes windows that they fit on my screen. I use it for my all apps .....
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:06:00 -
[549] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:seth Hendar wrote:Lallante wrote:seth Hendar wrote:as a RL lawyer, you should be aware that this is dependent of the countrys, and in france, if CCP ban someone with no reason, said person can fill a lawsuit and will win, because of customer protective laws (btw, EULA are of no value at all in France). Incorrect. While a EULA might not be legally enforceable as a contract, that doesn't prevent CCP from refusing access to its services to whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes. At best consumer protection law might get you a refund of unused, pre-purchased subscription time (doesnt apply if you use ISK bought plexs), which will be vastly less than any legal fees incurred, so good luck with that. enlighten me. EULA is of no value at all in france Just reread his paragraph. How would France force an unban? they wouldn't, but CCP will have to pay many RL money, and i mean big time
In my country - you cannot monitor someone else PC - in the way CCP wants to. This is forbidden by law. ( i know - no one cares :D, and no one forcing me to play eve ) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4610
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:17:00 -
[550] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:This is not about cache scratching - this is because CCP is going in the wrong way. Ok i know bots are bad - and you have to brake this - but instead of making them unusable on game level - CCP is monitoring our PC.
To be honest - if you put some indexing software running on your PC - it could try to index also content of eve cache.
Will THIS get you banned?
I'm kind of programmer - i don't have education in this direction - every thing i know i learned by myself , mostly by mistakes - and hours spent on fixing them.
I know that most of software i use interacts one with other running aps - sometimes on level most of the people are not aware of. For almost 2 years i was able to hold myself from "creating" something that will interact with a game - because i know - that this will kill all the pleasure of playing it. ( the reason i stopped playing Ultima Online )
And now someone could ban me because i have some strange software running on my PC?
OMG - I HAVE SOMETHING THAT interacts directly with EVE. After running EVE clients i run my own app that rearranges/ resizes windows that they fit on my screen. I use it for my all apps .....
Indexing is by default part of (at least) the last three released Windows operating systems. I seriously doubt CCP cares about indexing either as part of your OS or by a third party program. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
4610
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:22:00 -
[551] - Quote
GreenSeed wrote:why do people still insist that eve-mon is doing cache scrapes? Because it is. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:29:00 -
[552] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote: To be honest - if you put some indexing software running on your PC - it could try to index also content of eve cache.
Indexing is by default part of (at least) the last three released Windows operating systems. I seriously doubt CCP cares about indexing either as part of your OS or by a third party program.
Ok. Im homemade programmer still - what is the difference of using cache directly or "indexed" version?. I never looked on those files, still why not just make something that will make a copy of them - and use this copy? CCP MUST monitor all operations on those files.
On the other hand if i want to be safe - i make windows to backup specific file ( eve cache ) every minute - to a network location. ( second PC) - and there evil stuff it is going on. 2 pc? then 1 pc version. I use as simple as some VM software running shell linux that will do all the evil stuff on those backup files.
This is what i mean. if something is sitting on my drive me / my system / tons of different apps can do strange stuff with it.
CCP should not focus on the stuff going on in the client PC - but block it on the Server level. |
Nagnor
The Happy Shooters
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:50:00 -
[553] - Quote
seth Hendar wrote:None ofthe Above wrote:seth Hendar wrote:Lallante wrote:seth Hendar wrote:as a RL lawyer, you should be aware that this is dependent of the countrys, and in france, if CCP ban someone with no reason, said person can fill a lawsuit and will win, because of customer protective laws (btw, EULA are of no value at all in France). Incorrect. While a EULA might not be legally enforceable as a contract, that doesn't prevent CCP from refusing access to its services to whoever it likes for whatever reason it likes. At best consumer protection law might get you a refund of unused, pre-purchased subscription time (doesnt apply if you use ISK bought plexs), which will be vastly less than any legal fees incurred, so good luck with that. enlighten me. EULA is of no value at all in france Just reread his paragraph. How would France force an unban? they wouldn't, but CCP will have to pay many RL money, and i mean big time
Absolutely right. The EULA has never been tested legally (in court), but the there have been numerous cases where EULAs (and the customer's accepting to it) have been invalidated, characterizing them as contracts of adhesion, unconscionable, and/or unacceptable pursuant to the U.C.C. or other law. It is interesting to know that the right of reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability in included in laws in different countries/regions and just claiming that as a customer you waive those legal right doesn't cut it.
Strictly speaking CCP makes the use of their product/service unusable because of their EULA. Your OS meets the criteria of 6.3 "3rd party software ... that facilitate acquisition of items... " and therefore may not be used. That in fact as a good customer you are not actually using those particular facilities does not invalidate the applicability of that article
Regarding sanctions/actions against CCP, that can range from refunding of unused GameTime, refunding of past and future GameTime( given the cummulative nature of the game), compensation of damages (very favored in US), enforcing to stop service customers in a particular country (if found to be intentionally misleading) to being forced to relocate their servers (which afaik are in UK) back to Iceland and only allow Icelandic customers (which is a very small market).
But you are right it depends on how far you as a customer and CCP are willing to push it. Both you and CCP will have to do a cost-benefit analysis for such a legal conflict. In some cases legal aid insurrances pay some compensations to their clients for not pushing the matter futher. |
whaynethepain
65
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 09:57:00 -
[554] - Quote
CCP
I accept your terms, thankyou.
Would it also be possible to ban the 'spam bots' in Jita local chat. I can't get a word in Getting you on your feet.
So you've further to fall. |
Wanderer Unknown
Trust N1
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:01:00 -
[555] - Quote
I think there is a confusion cache scraping is not the same as reading the market exports. Many tools I know use the latter. W.r.t. multi-boxing - I haven't had a chance to use one yet (requires a lot of capital and time) but I'm very interested in an officially supported way of multi-boxing as a way to enable solo players (who just don't like flying in fleets) to participate in PVP and nullsec wars. E.g. that fleet of 18 Nagas swimming together I've just seen in Jita is totally awesome... :) |
|
CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2298
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:17:00 -
[556] - Quote
I have deleted some trolling in this thread. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|
quiki1
BRUTAL GENESIS GaNg BaNg TeAm
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:20:00 -
[557] - Quote
I have 2 banned accaunt , will judge you for it! I pay regularly for 3 accounts! A lot of money for such an attitude ! Tnx CCP but its chame ! u must banned bots who macking iskis every min and spamers .... looking for a lawyer no-â and will judge u ! |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear Limitless Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:24:00 -
[558] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:
CCP have made themselves clear. . . . . the spirit of the ELUA.
Please will everyone carry on with their legitimate EVE things. Things that aren't against the spirit of the EULA. The security team have made a real effort here to show their motivation in the blog and their subsequent posts. I feel they've made it clear that, although they can't talk in absolutes about specifics, their intention is to facilitate things in the spirit of the EULA, in the spirit of EVE, but to allow themselves scope to impact activities that are blatant exploitations.
The security team have made real efforts here to shed the aura of officiousness that usually accompanies people in "Security" type roles. I strongly believe that they are reaching out to us as a community and want to be seen as on our side, and I think we owe it to them to let them in. After their efforts to be open with us, (and they've taken a kicking on this thread, and their responses have been amongst the most freindly and non-confrontational blue posts I've ever seen on a forum), after these efforts I think decency demands we let them in.
Statements of the rules from someone or something in authority will always come across as threatening to some extent. We all have to put up with unwanted interference and restrictions from authority in our real lives. EVE is our escapism, (what we choose to invest our free time and imagination in), so there is going to be a reaction against perceived "threats" from authority in our escape from the same thing IRL.
To keep EVE strong any competative advantage has to come from real player skill. Everything in the game is PVP - Economics and fighting - Even PVE and Mining in the context of the economy is PVP in EVE's capitalist markets. To keep the game real and meaningful we expect to compete inside the envelope of the spirit of the game. And we need that to be policed.
Security want to keep the game meaningful - for us. To do this they need to be able to act against abuses of the system. We react angrily about invasions of authority into our EVE world - but we only react because EVE has meaning to us - we need to let Security have the tools they need to keep EVE meaningful. And we should be freindly to them and thank them for it. If we snub them and turn them away please consider how much we could lose. |
eXeler0n
The Quafe Saints
298
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:28:00 -
[559] - Quote
Whats with IS Boxer? eXeler0n
http://quafe.de Aktueller Post: Multiboxing oder: Wie f++hre ich keine Diskussion |
quiki1
BRUTAL GENESIS GaNg BaNg TeAm
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:29:00 -
[560] - Quote
8 years i paying and saport you CCP for what ? with that you repay us ? pfff |
|
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:37:00 -
[561] - Quote
eXeler0n wrote:Whats with IS Boxer? http://isboxer.com/
You click in one place - and this is transferred to a 5 other running eve clients. So 6 accounts are doing the same thing.
Now guess what - few minutes in web and i found EVE Bots running on ... IsBoxer. Instead connecting to eve client they connect them self to IsBoxer - then isBoxer ( as accepted software ) do the rest.
So CCP - this means that IsBoxer is now forbidden? |
culo duro
Next Level Alcoholics
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:54:00 -
[562] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:eXeler0n wrote:Whats with IS Boxer? http://isboxer.com/You click in one place - and this is transferred to a 5 other running eve clients. So 6 accounts are doing the same thing. Now guess what - few minutes in web and i found EVE Bots running on ... IsBoxer. Instead connecting to eve client they connect them self to IsBoxer - then isBoxer ( as accepted software ) do the rest. So CCP - this means that IsBoxer is now forbidden?
Since it's a player doing it, i don't think there's an issue.
I would like an official statement from CCP, i made a pettition and got a link to this thread, however no CCP guy have answered it yet. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 10:59:00 -
[563] - Quote
Not in this cases - instead player providing input for isboxer - bot is doing this. |
culo duro
Next Level Alcoholics
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:02:00 -
[564] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Not in this cases - instead player providing input for isboxer - bot is doing this.
That argument is vague, i don't see how you could setup a complete bot using ISBoxer, you must have some thirdparty software involved. |
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
167
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:16:00 -
[565] - Quote
Ban em hard and ban em often, CCP. There's plenty of us who are applauding from the non-botter seats that don't need to roleplay lawyer over every word. |
Bloody Wench
313
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:16:00 -
[566] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Inquisitor Kitchner wrote:Just out of curiosity, if you're saying the EULA hasn't changed, what exactly was it the Dev Blog was supposed to achieve?
If cache scraping was always against the EULA, but you're still not going to ban "legitimate" EVE players, what purpose was the Dev Blog supposed to achieve? The Dev blog was intended to inform players about our increased efforts towards getting rid of cheaters. We temporarily banned 2350 accounts today for verified abuse of an "autopilot to 0" hack. So, if you are using some kind of bot or hack for EVE, now is a good time to stop. There has also been a lot of talk lately concerning various third party applications, and we intended to clarify our stance on some of those issues with the policy document.
Autopilot to 0 is injection, so therefore is client modification, already a bannable offence and nothing to do with the cache.
You want to talk about something that's been the same way FOREVER? You can directly insert and execute arbitrary code into the eve client.....even today.
All you're doing with this bullshit is taking a giant crap on the people that make your game better, FOR FREE BECAUSE THEY LOVE THE GAME.
You're just cocking your leg on the people that provide OOG content that you do not.
|
virm pasuul
Viziam Amarr Empire
21
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:25:00 -
[567] - Quote
Autopilot to 0 does not make Eve a better game. It makes Eve a worse game. Hence the ( temporary ) bans. Consider it a warning if you are using other cheats - now is a really great time to stop cheating if you want to continue playing. Expect other bans for other forms of cheating once CCP thinks the warning has had enough time to sink in.
|
culo duro
Next Level Alcoholics
73
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:29:00 -
[568] - Quote
virm pasuul wrote:Autopilot to 0 does not make Eve a better game. It makes Eve a worse game. Hence the ( temporary ) bans. Consider it a warning if you are using other cheats - now is a really great time to stop cheating if you want to continue playing. Expect other bans for other forms of cheating once CCP thinks the warning has had enough time to sink in.
Which is why alot of people would like to know the stance on multiboxing. |
Anthar Thebess
REPUBLIKA ORLA C0VEN
91
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:45:00 -
[569] - Quote
In case of multiboxing CCP is in very bad position. As a company ( main purpose is to generate income ) it is hard to make something that will lead large group of people to discontinue some of the accounts.
I think CCP should ask them self 2 questions. Why and what kind of things people are using in eve. Officialy ban some things ( things like - autopilot warp to 0) ... and other build in into a game (i don't know - maybe something like " mine this asteroid - to my cargo " option for a orca fleet commander ) For me mining , is not so much important - and if this generate more income (from new accounts) i have no objections. Im vote "yes" for all build in automations not connected to the "engagement" with other players/rats. |
Bloody Wench
313
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 11:45:00 -
[570] - Quote
CCP Peligro wrote:Ereilian wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ereilian wrote:CCP Peligro wrote:
Ha! I wish... On a more serious note, this operation is around 2 months in the making, and the total number of accounts involved in this one (2350) is a small fraction of the number of accounts we have banned in the past year.
We are presenting a bunch of numbers and graphs at fanfest, this will be recorded. I'll put them up in a dev blog afterwards as well.
2 months for 0.005% of the player base ... time well spent? Comparing accounts banned to the amount of the active subscriptions is kind of useless, don't you think? With the amount of backslapping going on, its a pretty fair assesment of the time invested compared to the results. Especially when the resources used by Team Security could be redeployed into making the game better. I did not say anything about the time invested at all. I said that this particular operation started as an idea two months ago, and was finished today. You are of course free to make assumptions. As for Team Security, we make the game better by dealing with cheaters and botters. This is actually my main concern; the general well being of the game, and the ability for the players to enjoy our product. Nobody wants to play a game where cheating is rampant.
Warp to 0 AP is not a game breaking hack / exploit. It doesn't impact gameplay negatively for the vast majority of players. With the exception of suiciders and gate camps, and clearly improves gameplay for over 2000 users. I realise at this point I sound like I'm in favour of it, and possibly I am, however my personal stance is irrelevant.
Ratting bots, mission running bots, courier bots, market bots and mining bots....these things adversely impact my game play.
Someone getting 30 jumps 15 minutes quicker I don't give a ****. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 [19] 20 .. 27 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |