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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
138
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Posted - 2013.04.18 20:20:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sov warfare is almost universally considered as the biggest evil of 0.0, save perhaps RMTing. The current mechanic is timely and rewards he who brings most capitals. But what if warfare was won and lost not simply by the side with the biggest gun, but also by the side with the fastest draw?
I see a lot of suggestions about a lot of things in Eve and often they are completely unrealistic or alien to what will ever be done.For example I'd love it if local was gone from 0.0 but that will never happen. Ideas need to be realistic and if the change is too dramatic or out of character, they won't happen.
The number of stations in 0.0 is too damn high!!!
Seriously though, have you ever flown through 0.0 and asked yourself "wtf am I nearing jita or something?" Why are there so many stations in 0.0? Providence has more station systems than non station systems. Fountain is better but you still have long stretches of space with station after station. Tribute has clusters of stations all around.
This sort of terrain creates a turtling mentality. I can run my missions and do my mining in the same system where my station is. Neutrals in local? Dock up. They have 10 ships? We'll wait until we can form up 30. The person described above is not a coward nor a noob or a scrub. He's being smart and realistic. The problem isn't the player, its the mechanic that makes the player play a certain way which sucks.
Step 1, One Constellation One Station
Merge all stations in a constellation and any mothball assets into one station. Have it be central to that Constellation. WMN- in Kalevala for its respective constellation or 9GI in Tribute. In each case the station is central to the constellation and far enough from the station of any other constellation.
Step 2, Put the farms and fields BEYOND the castle moat
Like stated above, currently you can do your carebearing almost all within one click of a station dock. Step one limits the area where one can be a carebear. Step two would be to put the "good space" with the good anoms, belts and ice fields in systems away from the "station system" of the constellation. This will make people roam through space more without having everyone they meet simply dock up. If they want the fruits of their lands, they'll have to go out and get them and actually defend their ability to do it.
Step 3, Get rid of most of the current sov structures
SBU, TCU, I-HUB...who the hell gives enough of a damn to remember most of this non sense other than the fleet commanders and the logistic mules of 0.0 alliances? The very nature of the current sov mechanic screams "wait for someone with director roles to show up because you're worthless and should just spin ship in the meantime." Worst of all, NONE of these structures currently interact with the player on any meaningful level.
(CONTINUED) |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Step 4, It's the station stupid!
Sov should be held not by some pointless meaningless structure that doesn't hold ships or provide refining or a clone bay or do anything meaningful for the player. What matters should be the station, the central point of the constellation. The defining yes/no aspect of sovwarfare should be the station. Flip that and you grab the whole constellation. It's already like that in a sense, you grab the "main fleet holding station" of your enemy and its game over. But under current sov mechanics you still have to go grind half a region.
But wait there's more!
Step 5, The step that makes it all meaningful.
I probably lost you somewhere between step 3 and 4. I promise this will make it up. After all it would be stupid if all we did is have timers for one station that flipped a whole constellation. So pay attention. Throughout the entire constellation we set up numerous (One per planet perhaps) LOW HP structures (nerves) to shoot that affect the over all HP and Infastructure Upgrades of the station. Take enough HP in this way and the station holders suffer as the station itself becomes vulnerable to direct attack AND it becomes of less quality. The lower the HP on these "nerves" the more affect on the main station. Now you have to send out roaming squads to police your space so your station doesn't suffer adverse affects and make way for a direct assault on the station itself.
So how would this play out? We'll use TEST and GOONS as an example as they were the ones saying that an all out sov war would be boring. TEST surprise attacks and decides to invade Cloud Ring via Placid. Their first target would be Balenne constellation which under the new sov system would have 77- as its station system. Now would they bring in a 1500 man fleet to hit some stupid structure until it hit some timer, reset and try again this time with 1500 man response fleet with 99 percent of the people involved would have the contribution of "orbit anchor, hit F1 at primary."
NO!!! Under the new sov mechanic it isn't tactically viable to bring in that many numbers. Attacking with battleships and carriers wouldn't be cost effective because your targets are numerous low HP structures. Instead you're going to have to send out small squads of 10-20 Cruisers bouncing all over the system in a cat and mouse game with the defenders. Mobility and warp speed is going to be the important aspect of this warfare, not just EHP and DPS.
Do you hear that sound? That's the sound of MEANINGFUL actually sov affecting small gang PVP to 0.0. The defender will have to form up their own small gang cruiser fleets to deal with this or their station will provide less refining, crappier anoms and so on and so forth.
Now let's say TEST manages to destroy enough (70 or so percent) of these "nerves" through their skillful small gang cruiser pvp. The station in the central system becomes vulnerable to attack. NOW you have the epic thousand + people in local fleets. But now you have it under a new and much more varied dynamic. You had skirmishing make way for a main invasion force.
TEST does enough damage to the station |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1615
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Posted - 2013.04.18 20:21:00 -
[3] - Quote
--> Features & Ideas Discussion
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sure and if I want to change national political policy I'll write my senator. |
Drunken Bum
117
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
I once got so drunk i woke up in another city next to a pregnant junkie hooker who'd overdosed. The baby was still alive. Spare some change?-á |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3168
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:33:00 -
[6] - Quote
Posting in a not-so-stealth 'Nerf the big blue blob' thread. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
504
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Posted - 2013.04.18 20:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
Not until they come up with a POS overhaul that has something better than those goddam shared SMAs. #savejita |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
138
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 20:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Wacktopia wrote:Not until they come up with a POS overhaul that has something better than those goddam shared SMAs.
Kind of goes with the assumption that they're doing that, but yeah. |
Rudina
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3
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Posted - 2013.04.18 23:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Posting in a not-so-stealth 'Nerf the big blue blob' thread.
I think its actually a stealth 'buff TEST' thread. |
Nex apparatu5
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
477
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
This may be the single worst "fix sov" suggestion I had ever seen on this forum, including the one where the guy wanted all stations to be open to everyone.
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Hannah Flex
laissez-faire economics
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
One station per constellation? LOL that'd kill off the last 5 guys that still do industry in 0.0 |
Trendon Evenstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
158
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Posted - 2013.04.18 23:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Dearest Original Poster, please list the sovereignty wars that you have been involved in, the extent of that involvement, and the times and dates so we may know you have the credibility to pontificate on sovereignty matters. Thanks in advance. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
326
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nex apparatu5 wrote:This may be the single worst "fix sov" suggestion I had ever seen on this forum, including the one where the guy wanted all stations to be open to everyone.
"That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me." - Dr. Egon Spengler You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Hannah Flex
laissez-faire economics
317
|
Posted - 2013.04.18 23:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Trendon Evenstar wrote:Dearest Original Poster, please list the sovereignty wars that you have been involved in, the extent of that involvement, and the times and dates so we may know you have the credibility to pontificate on sovereignty matters. Thanks in advance.
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Hannah Flex
laissez-faire economics
317
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Posted - 2013.04.18 23:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
Also: how many regions/constellations does your alliance hold? How long have they held them? How long did it take to capture them? How many times have you successfully defended your sov?
These are the things we need to know. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1558
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Wow someone came up with a worse idea than POS war. |
SmilingVagrant
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1558
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to?
Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
326
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Just because we are trolling you, doesn't mean we are all F1 monkeys, afraid of small gang pew. It means you have a bad idea and should feel bad for proposing it. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote:All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building.
If you had the slightest concept of how warfare works you would know that all ages of war have both a skirmish phase and a main phase. From the Greek phalanx formations to today. The fact of the matter is there is no meaningful reason to do small gang/skirmish pvp that would affect sov warfare at all what so ever.
Now I know it might be scary that you'll have to do more than orbit/F1/MWD but it will be much more fun. |
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote:All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Just because we are trolling you, doesn't mean we are all F1 monkeys, afraid of small gang pew. It means you have a bad idea and should feel bad for proposing it.
A bad idea for F1 monkeys. Got it. Troll away, we all have to be good at something i suppose. |
Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
326
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:If you had the slightest concept of how warfare works you would know that all ages of war have both a skirmish phase and a main phase. From the Greek phalanx formations to today. The fact of the matter is there is no meaningful reason to do small gang/skirmish pvp that would affect sov warfare at all what so ever.
Now I know it might be scary that you'll have to do more than orbit/F1/MWD but it will be much more fun. Keep banging your head against that wall of stupid, you'll get through eventually. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons. |
Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
840
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building.
Haha golden
Best comedy post ever --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. **** |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Falin Whalen wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote:If you had the slightest concept of how warfare works you would know that all ages of war have both a skirmish phase and a main phase. From the Greek phalanx formations to today. The fact of the matter is there is no meaningful reason to do small gang/skirmish pvp that would affect sov warfare at all what so ever.
Now I know it might be scary that you'll have to do more than orbit/F1/MWD but it will be much more fun. Keep banging your head against that wall of stupid, you'll get through eventually.
I'm not banging my head, I'm just speaking to you. |
Hannah Flex
laissez-faire economics
318
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it? |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
Hannah Flex wrote:Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it?
I was part of Stainwagon a few years ago. And what? Does it even matter? Who are you? |
Hannah Flex
laissez-faire economics
318
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 00:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:Hannah Flex wrote:Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it? I was part of Stainwagon a few years ago. And what? Does it even matter? Who are you?
It matters a great deal. I am a consumer researching a product. If you want to be taken seriously about such a complicated matter you need to understand the nature of the beast. I would listen to Shadoo about sov, I would listen to goon logi directors about sov, I'm not sure I would listen to some dude who 'was in Stainwagon' a few YEARS ago about sov. |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 01:00:00 -
[28] - Quote
Hannah Flex wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote:Hannah Flex wrote:Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it? I was part of Stainwagon a few years ago. And what? Does it even matter? Who are you? It matters a great deal. I am a consumer researching a product. If you want to be taken seriously about such a complicated matter you need to understand the nature of the beast. I would listen to Shadoo about sov, I would listen to goon logi directors about sov, I'm not sure I would listen to some dude who 'was in Stainwagon' a few YEARS ago about sov.
Do you also listen to cigarette lobbyists about the health affects of smoking? |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
601
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 01:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
Given the extremely limited slots and options available for nul stations, how would you balance this?Station Indy slots, refining, repair, offices, med facilities would all have to be crammed into one. I believe this is not possible now.
If my corp/alliance has 1 station, we have 1 med bay for all clones. What stops a large alliance from just caging the station undock so we can never escape to form skirmisher fleets?
Since stations require upkeep costs, how do you generate a comparable isk sink? Simply raise price, hindering small groups who may not be able to make as much isk as an established nul corp?
Would you treat NPC space the same? One station in a constellation would greatly hinder NPC nul dwellers.
Would your suggestion drive people to skip stations all together, just use poses, leading to a dead station mechanic?
Lastly, why are you attempting to deprive people of one great aspect of this game, creating their own, nearly permenant structure? Yes it can be lost, but I have never heard of a station being killed. Seriously, I have dreams (and almost the skills, 1 off). I want to build a station, it seems the loftiest goal for a manufacturer. Titan would be nice, but a station, that is a dream to strive for and a reason to play. Heck, that is player created content at it's finest. A station in the void if space, open to all, that may last the life of the game... You can't get much lofter of an indy dream. Why deprive us of our chance to leave a near permanent mark? |
Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect
139
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 01:31:00 -
[30] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia Given the extremely limited slots and options available for nul stations, how would you balance this?Station Indy slots, refining, repair, offices, med facilities would all have to be crammed into one. I believe this is not possible now.
Add more slots, and everything else needed.
Lady Ayeipsia If my corp/alliance has 1 station, we have 1 med bay for all clones. What stops a large alliance from just caging the station undock so we can never escape to form skirmisher fleets?
If you hold any sort of sov you have allies or you're a renter or you're big enough to roll out of the station and fight them. You have a logistics advantage which your enemy does not. In any case it's better than the current "they brought more supers and won" scenario today.
Lady Ayeipsia Since stations require upkeep costs, how do you generate a comparable isk sink? Simply raise price, hindering small groups who may not be able to make as much isk as an established nul corp?
Why? One station just means everyone in that constellation will use that station, not that stations will be used less. If your ship is damaged or you need ammo, you'll go to a station. You don't need 9 stations all next to one another to do this. The isk sink isn't touched.
Lady Ayeipsia Would you treat NPC space the same? One station in a constellation would greatly hinder NPC nul dwellers.
NPC space would probably remain the same. Has nothing to do with sov.
Lady Ayeipsia Would your suggestion drive people to skip stations all together, just use poses, leading to a dead station mechanic? [/quote
No it wouldn't.
Lady Ayeipsia Lastly, why are you attempting to deprive people of one great aspect of this game, creating their own, nearly permenant structure? Yes it can be lost, but I have never heard of a station being killed. Seriously, I have dreams (and almost the skills, 1 off). I want to build a station, it seems the loftiest goal for a manufacturer. Titan would be nice, but a station, that is a dream to strive for and a reason to play. Heck, that is player created content at it's finest. A station in the void if space, open to all, that may last the life of the game... You can't get much lofter of an indy dream. Why deprive us of our chance to leave a near permanent mark?[/quote
Because it hinders gameplay. People just spin ship when any challenge presence itself and turtle. How about adding "monument structures" like in Jita? But adding station after station after station in 0.0 will make it boring. |
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