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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1612
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Posted - 2013.04.19 13:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
Davenchi wrote:Where do these new order tools operate? I would love to set my 8 year old up in thier system and let them have a play date. Would be funny to watch both waste thier time. They're generally in Caldari space around the near-Jita ice-fields. Please Fraps any interaction during said "play date" so we can all enjoy the lulz. Professional bad guys were unfortunately not available so instead they sent me. Voter response is quite good this time around: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qCaz2OlMecY/UWhTTh_NfFI/AAAAAAAAPOE/ryjfQkApycs/s1600/05.jpg |
WTFAMILOOKINGAT
Horizon Research Group
32
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Posted - 2013.04.19 13:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
If there's anything the NO has generated it's reams and reams of people talkin' purty tryin' to sound important but in the end is just more words on da pile. |
Caviar Liberta
Moira. Villore Accords
108
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Posted - 2013.04.19 13:58:00 -
[33] - Quote
Old Fellow wrote:
Please make a summary I will update this post when your wall of text becomes easier to read, I am old and my eyes hurt
Also another idea might be to record the wall of text to an audio file. Its much easier to listen to an audio recording than to read the WOT (wall of text) on your display. |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
4147
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
I Love Boobies wrote:The New Order Propaganda is more effective than the New Order itself. Seems to be working. I think if everyone just ignored them, they will just quietly shrink off into the sunset. You're just feeding them by posting about them.
True enough. But at least it reminds us that they are still around to be even further ignored. There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1019
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:You are arguing as a zealot. It's wonderful. What you are apparently not noticing is that such a strategy involves increased participation and game play at a variety of levels to amplify something that is going to happen over time anyway. You are forcing or attempting to force players to play a way they do not wish. Those that have either found they enjoy that or are suffering it should take full advantage of your wishes and offer. Those that are effected in a way that constitutes resistance or resentment should also use the in-game mechanisms to take full advantage of your offer. May you receive in abundance what you have requested. Agents have been asking rebel miners to do anything other than jack for months
literally asking for it
the Code never said Agents or Knights would protect miners
bot-aspirants would never go out of their way to even help themselves
and any fantastic scenario involving bot-aspirants doing something (anything) is a New Order victory |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
416
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
I'm here to chew popcorn and enjoy the drama. And I'm all out of popcorn |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
4147
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Posted - 2013.04.19 14:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:I'm here to chew popcorn and enjoy the drama. And I'm all out of popcorn
The New Order shenanigans are hardly drama. Much more akin to Farce and Satire. There is much to be said in favour of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community.-á-á-á-á - Oscar Wilde |
RandomFlame
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.04.19 15:22:00 -
[38] - Quote
Whjat you whine about is both novel and new. Stop writing a wall of rubbish. You write rubbish. I hope miners kick your shiny metal...
You are boring. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3186
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Posted - 2013.04.19 16:11:00 -
[39] - Quote
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:I'm here to chew popcorn and enjoy the drama. And I'm all out of popcorn
With the cost of movie theater popcorn slowly approaching the cost of Iridium and printer ink, We can hardly blame you for only purchasing a small.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8045
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Posted - 2013.04.19 20:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
There's no doubt that the New Order could be broken, but why would you want to do it? It creates conflict where there is none, a market for both combat and mining stuff, removes wealth from the game, etc. Lets face it highsec would be as boring as watching paint dry if it wasn't for the gankers, wardecs, awoxing and general mayhem that people like the New Order, Skunkworks, Marmite Collective, Goons on holiday and all the other people who like to explode other people create, then there's the market, destruction fuels it.
It could be fun for both sides, if the majority could be arsed to fight back, the minority who have decided to fight back, they're having fun, although a few of them seem to have gone over to the darkside, where they have cookies and plentiful kills. A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
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Snow Axe
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1241
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Posted - 2013.04.19 21:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
You forgot to add "crossposted from fanfiction.net" at the top. "Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread[" |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
1625
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Posted - 2013.04.19 21:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:It could be fun for both sides, if the majority could be arsed to fight back, the minority who have decided to fight back, they're having fun, although a few of them seem to have gone over to the darkside, where they have cookies and plentiful kills. That's the thing: once you start shooting other people you realize how dumb the majority is. Professional bad guys were unfortunately not available so instead they sent me. Voter response is quite good this time around: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qCaz2OlMecY/UWhTTh_NfFI/AAAAAAAAPOE/ryjfQkApycs/s1600/05.jpg |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
105
|
Posted - 2013.04.19 22:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
RandomFlame wrote:Whjat you whine about is both novel and new. Stop writing a wall of rubbish. You write rubbish. I hope miners kick your shiny metal... You are boring. Well 'RandomFlame', It seems unlikely to me that anyone will read this far down into this thread. Both 'wall of text' and micro posts (o7) serve as a kind of qualifying mechanism. I will answer your two line post with a 'wall of text.'
1- it is unclear to me how anyone could construe my tone or intent as 'whining'. Possible with some work I suppose. I recognize that such posts as this are not compassionate to the non-reader or ESL reader. Sometimes in the author's learning process they are even worse for native speakers who enjoy reading and writing as a way of interacting with other life forms. I am not a particularly good writer. I also suck at the game itself thus far. I still like to play.
2- people consistently complain about long posts as if they were somehow forced to confront them and that length, in and of itself, were a qualitative criteria. The post does not constitute non-consensual 'PvP'. It is entirely consensual and there is no 'back button scrambler' that keeps the reader from leaving at any moment. This attitude confuses me, which is of course my predicament and not yours. If you complain about a thread while adding nothing of substance or seeking in anyway to interact with other people in thread I will congratulate myself on my incredible Oz like powers by which I forced you at a distance, knowing nothing about you, to read the post.
3- in the spirit of full disclosure consider the above post as an extremely cheap frigate in the meta game. I am not afraid to 'lose' it and in fact fully expect to be 'podded' upon writing it. Anytime anyone presses the 'post/reply' they should expect to encounter other human beings. This post is not very 'leveraged' in terms of effect or medium. It does things on many different levels that are satisfying to me. It's not even a frigate. It is slow, ugly, large, clumsy and poorly constructed. It's more like a battle badger. People learn in all sorts of different ways. I will say that such a post has multiple and redundant purposes for me. It has served many of those already if not necessarily the ostensible rhetorical purpose.
4- one of the consistent memes I have encountered is "it's a sandbox! Do not ask what you should do! Do what you wish! Do what is fun!" At the same time when that actually occurs people often seem to have the opposite response, seeking benevolently and critically to tell people what to do, not to do and what would be fun. You can take it as given that if I post anything it is an expression of something I find 'fun' and part of the extended play for me, whether or not I have any skill in the matter or not. The request being made by many of these sorts of posts and in game actions seems to me to be 'hey! Come out and play! Wanna play! Hey!" I could be mistaken in my interpretation and it is equally possible that some people are saying on both sides of any 'debate'... 'Ergh... Playing with you sucks! Go home.' What is true for me is that there is no 'not playing' only different ways people are drawing the boundaries of the game to define play. The nature of that and what is 'in' or 'out', what people have agreed to, can in turn be both debated and in extreme cases demonstrated by such actions as as bans.
5- the request is consistently being made is that the miners 'kick someone's shiny butt' in some way. The above strategy is a way to do that without having to abandon some forms of their preferred game style, while entering into the participatory nature of play that people are requesting. I also hope they kick my shiny butt. I have purchased a tin of butt polish for the occasion. (Come out and play?).
6- It could be construed as 'griefing' if the 'miners' enact the Heresy full on. However James 315 has created a mechanism in which his actions all take place in the context of a business venture and thus cannot be construed as griefing, but only as transactions and profit seeking. The miners actions are thereby also participating in that model, whether they have overtly entered into a contract or are trying to compromise the effectiveness of the competition through available means. They could come up with things that are fully 'out of bounds', but they would really have to work at it. Bots are already out of bounds, i.e. cheating- this contextualizes the actions 'against' miners. Currently the first response is that people cry 'foul' and file petitions or don't file petitions, but still feel that some form of participation is out of bounds. This is probably worth testing, but when the answer from the developer is 'play on!' you then have a choice of leaving the game, probably with a sense of resentment and victimization or creatively finding a way to play, should you actually enjoy something about the game. Conflict drivers require this existential dilemma be faced when they are good. I am not pretending my attempt to contribute does this in any way, but if you look in this game you can see where that has happened. Personally I feel CCP should vertically integrate bots, regulate them and destroy the profitability of the 3rd party vendors. I have never seen anything else work, but this has been proven to work in many analogous situations.
7- I have a complex relationship to boredom which I will feel free to articulate. On the one hand I feel boredom is simply a lack of inner resources. It is fundamentally a lack of creativity or a lack of access to one's already present and abundant creativity, without some modicum of which any of us would cease to be on the planet very rapidly. On the other hand I celebrate boredom. I aspire to be fully boring and utterly useless in all ways. This is much, much harder than you might imagine.
Battle badger post fully exploded. Private sig. Do not read. |
Manny Moons
New Order Logistics CODE.
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 00:50:00 -
[44] - Quote
OP does not seem to understand the goals of the New Order, nor does he seem to understand the behavior of the typical highsec miner.
There is a much more expedient method to understand what's going on than to read a hundred pages of blog and forum posts. Actually visit a system where the New Order is present.
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Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 01:28:00 -
[45] - Quote
Manny Moons wrote:OP does not seem to understand the goals of the New Order, nor does he seem to understand the behavior of the typical highsec miner.
There is a much more expedient method to understand what's going on than to read a hundred pages of blog and forum posts. Actually visit a system where the New Order is present.
I feel I understand the goals pretty clearly. Of course I could be mistaken. I probably do not understand in the way that you and other True Believers might. One way to get clear about goals in an endeavor is to ask: under what conditions would the endeavor no longer exist? Based on this question I understand the goals at least as well as the Knights and participants posting on the public portion of the board. Interestingly to me I don't think it is actually necessary to understand the goals that this question implies in order to participate and feel, as a True Believer, that you do understand the goals. Faith is the evidence of things unseen... Opiate of the masses and all. That is actually a cool aspect of it for me at least.
I have almost certainly been in systems such as you suggest, but... I am not a miner. True I like the Venture hull, but I was able to endure mining for about the time it took to get those free hulls. I also have no pressing need to gank miners and I do not actually enjoy high sec, though as a new player without affiliation or the strong desire for affiliation, discovering the rest of the universe (and range of play) is somewhat more difficult than I might have imagined. I have accepted that as a consequence of my narrative choices for the moment. I am in no hurry. Where would I be hurrying to? Why on earth would you assume I have any interest in expedience or anything remotely having to do with your personal model of such? Really the last thing on my mind. Oddly you sound like the projected stereotype of 'miner.'
"For the oppressors, there exists only one right: their right to live in peace, over against the right, not always even recognized, but simply conceded, of the oppressed to survival" Pedagogy of the Oppressed p.58, Paulo Freire Private sig. Do not read. |
Manny Moons
New Order Logistics CODE.
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 01:44:00 -
[46] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:...I have almost certainly been in systems such as you suggest, but... I am not a miner. True I like the Venture hull, but I was able to endure mining for about the time it took to get those free hulls. I also have no pressing need to gank miners and I do not actually enjoy high sec, though as a new player without affiliation or the strong desire for affiliation, discovering the rest of the universe (and range of play) is somewhat more difficult than I might have imagined. I have accepted that as a consequence of my narrative choices for the moment. I am in no hurry. Where would I be hurrying to? Why on earth would you assume I have any interest in expedience or anything remotely having to do with your personal model of such? Really the last thing on my mind. Oddly you sound like the projected stereotype of 'miner.' ... I was not suggesting you mine or gank miners. And if you have no interest in knowing what you write about, there is no need to visit at all. I was merely offering a quick way for you to discover what's really going on.
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Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 02:01:00 -
[47] - Quote
Manny Moons wrote: I was not suggesting you mine or gank miners. And if you have no interest in knowing what you write about, there is no need to visit at all. I was merely offering a quick way for you to discover what's really going on.
Out of curiosity then, do you feel the rather detailed and elaborate account represented on minerbump and to which you seem to consistently refer many people, in some way misrepresents what is actually going on? That would be good to know. Though I do understand and appreciate the sentiment of your proposal.
Private sig. Do not read. |
Manny Moons
New Order Logistics CODE.
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 02:32:00 -
[48] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:Out of curiosity then, do you feel the rather detailed and elaborate account represented on minerbump and to which you seem to consistently refer many people, in some way misrepresents what is actually going on? That would be good to know. Though I do understand and appreciate the sentiment of your proposal.
In my opinion, minerbumping.com is an enigmatic site, and a reader's interpretation is likely to be colored by their preconceived notions. I have encountered some players who view it as pure evil, others as gospel truth, and still others that consider it high level comedy. Certainly all of those affiliated with the New Order are individuals, and to classify us as a homogeneous group of zealots, or griefers, or saints misses the mark. I encourage everyone to draw their own conclusions, but based on facts rather than hearsay or a mistaken interpretation of someone else's opinions.
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1415
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 03:09:00 -
[49] - Quote
Good point. A protection racket only works if you actually provide protection (this is how governments are formed, after all). Start ganking everyone you see advertising that they paid up to the Bumptards and turn that "permit" into a "bullseye" - how long before people stop paying out of fear? Q: Just how bad were missiles and drones nerfed?-á A: They're adding them to Amarr ships now. |
Lin Suizei
133
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 03:26:00 -
[50] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Good point. A protection racket only works if you actually provide protection (this is how governments are formed, after all). Start ganking everyone you see advertising that they paid up to the Bumptards and turn that "permit" into a "bullseye" - how long before people stop paying out of fear?
How long before you start actually doing something about it? Xeros S*** > are you really suprised? im not here to pvp so why the fuc not Xeros S**** > oh go cry somewhere else, im not in fw for the ****** pvp
Welcome to faction war. |
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Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 03:50:00 -
[51] - Quote
Lin Suizei wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:Good point. A protection racket only works if you actually provide protection (this is how governments are formed, after all). Start ganking everyone you see advertising that they paid up to the Bumptards and turn that "permit" into a "bullseye" - how long before people stop paying out of fear? How long before you start actually doing something about it?
A change in mental model is the first step to doing something, as we see from the NO conversion process.
Private sig. Do not read. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1415
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 04:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lin Suizei wrote:How long before you start actually doing something about it?
Me? That would be never, as I have no interest in wrecking my 5.0 by hanging out in ice belts and becoming a ganker myself.
But for people with multiple accounts... well, isn't that what multiple accounts are for? Q: Just how bad were missiles and drones nerfed?-á A: They're adding them to Amarr ships now. |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
106
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 04:13:00 -
[53] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Lin Suizei wrote:How long before you start actually doing something about it? Me? That would be never, as I have no interest in wrecking my 5.0 by hanging out in ice belts and becoming a ganker myself. But for people with multiple accounts... well, isn't that what multiple accounts are for?
Actually the strategy, such as it is, details actions you can take that have nothing to do with ganking or compromising sec status or anything. In addition to devaluing the contract you must consider ways to escalate their transaction costs, which is not hard to do. 'They' are considering exactly your play style and targeting that. You must essentially do the same. Ganking to devalue the contract won't do that since it is 'their' play style. Think through logging on as them and what you would enjoy and why. Destroy that. That is the war you are in, not an exchange of fire. No shots fired. It will require a bit of creativity in your part. Just saying.
Private sig. Do not read. |
Tetsuo Tsukaya
Pixel Navigators Hostile Work Environment.
7
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Posted - 2013.04.20 04:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:
There is contained within the New Order credo an inherent Heresy. The theology is based on that all actions should contain risk, presumably commensurate with reward.
I stopped here. You may think using highly formal language is helping your argument but it's just making it unreadable.
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Audrik Villalona
New Order Operations
0
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Posted - 2013.04.20 06:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
The NO is not a protection racket. Protection rackets charge more like 10-30% of profits. 10m is like 0.01% of profits, it's a nominal fee by which the miner shows sincerity.
The permit holders are not a "profitable group of targets." As believers in the code, permit holding miners believe in tanking one's barge/exhumer, and mining ATK. This makes them the worst possible group of targets. I invite you to prove otherwise by ganking me. I look forward to laughing at your wreck(s). |
rswfire
Firesworn Firesworn Nation
30
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Posted - 2013.04.20 08:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Seems to me some gankers could set up shop and start ganking any miner who has an attribution to the "New Order." After all, these are the miners who are the most risk-averse among them all. So target them, kill them...then you'll start hearing the outrage! We are the other side of Eve...the human side. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=182994 http://www.firesworn.com/index.php?/topic/69-about-firesworn-nation/ |
Manny Moons
New Order Logistics CODE.
25
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Posted - 2013.04.20 10:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
rswfire wrote:Seems to me some gankers could set up shop and start ganking any miner who has an attribution to the "New Order." After all, these are the miners who are the most risk-averse among them all. So target them, kill them...then you'll start hearing the outrage! At the risk of being repetitive, while doing this may outrage the miners you gank, it won't have the intended effect on the New Order. If you could find enough players willing to sacrifice their time, ISK, and security status (unlikely, as has been proven each time this plan has been suggested) to gank enough permit holders to make themselves known to the largely aloof mining community, and if it somehow resulted in no additional mining permits ever being sold (even more unlikely), you would not only fail to hurt the New Order, you would actually be helping it. |
rswfire
Firesworn Firesworn Nation
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 10:13:00 -
[58] - Quote
Manny Moons wrote:At the risk of being repetitive, while doing this may outrage the miners you gank, it won't have the intended effect on the New Order. If you could find enough players willing to sacrifice their time, ISK, and security status (unlikely, as has been proven each time this plan has been suggested) to gank enough permit holders to make themselves known to the largely aloof mining community, and if it somehow resulted in no additional mining permits ever being sold (even more unlikely), you would not only fail to hurt the New Order, you would actually be helping it.
Just seems like an easier solution than the one the op proposed. But hey, I'm not a miner, and I have little interest in the topic. That said, I don't really agree with you. You have an alliance of people who gank. What, you have some sort of monopoly in that department? No, of course not. I'm not surprised this has been said before though; it's actually very logical, and perhaps someone will do it. Emergent gameplay and all. We are the other side of Eve...the human side. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=182994 http://www.firesworn.com/index.php?/topic/69-about-firesworn-nation/ |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
107
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:15:00 -
[59] - Quote
rswfire wrote:Manny Moons wrote:At the risk of being repetitive, while doing this may outrage the miners you gank, it won't have the intended effect on the New Order. If you could find enough players willing to sacrifice their time, ISK, and security status (unlikely, as has been proven each time this plan has been suggested) to gank enough permit holders to make themselves known to the largely aloof mining community, and if it somehow resulted in no additional mining permits ever being sold (even more unlikely), you would not only fail to hurt the New Order, you would actually be helping it. Just seems like an easier solution than the one the op proposed. But hey, I'm not a miner, and I have little interest in the topic. That said, I don't really agree with you. You have an alliance of people who gank. What, you have some sort of monopoly in that department? No, of course not. I'm not surprised this has been said before though; it's actually very logical, and perhaps someone will do it. Emergent gameplay and all.
Actually, it is exactly part of what I proposed, just not the actions for the miners to take.
Non-miners: destroy the value of the oath. Miners: create a transactional burden.
NO proponents are arguing about the 'actual' nature of the contract and their espoused models, which simply do not matter and are not the basis for miner decisions... Except in the cases where the miners have stopped mining altogether and joined gank squads themselves. In terms of targeting miners having sworn the oath, these converted miners are probably most likely to really do that, I would guess. Private sig. Do not read. |
rswfire
Firesworn Firesworn Nation
33
|
Posted - 2013.04.20 11:17:00 -
[60] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:Actually, it is exactly part of what I proposed, just not the actions for the miners to take.
Non-miners: destroy the value of the oath. Miners: create a transactional burden.
NO proponents are arguing about the 'actual' nature of the contract and their espoused models, which simply do not matter and are not the basis for miner decisions... Except in the cases where the miners have stopped mining altogether and joined gank squads themselves. In terms of targeting miners having sworn the oath, these converted miners are probably most likely to really do that, I would guess.
Thanks for clarifying. I actually did read your whole post, but it was a lot to take in, so I may have missed that. :) We are the other side of Eve...the human side. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=182994 http://www.firesworn.com/index.php?/topic/69-about-firesworn-nation/ |
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