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Dave Stark
2883
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Posted - 2013.04.27 15:07:00 -
[91] - Quote
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:For expensive stuff I use a prowler, almost impossible to catch in high and low. I do plan on getting a freighter because well..?..? Ok I still have to find a reason but I want one anyway
because unless you're using it daily, or multiple times a day, it's just cheaper to pay red frog than do it yourself? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
126
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Posted - 2013.04.27 17:20:00 -
[92] - Quote
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:Well, what im more bothered with freighters is they have chance of survival if they get attacked (and lets assume the attackers know a bit what they do). And i also agree you cant just buff them, it should still be possible to take them down. But at least the should have chance. Maybe it should be possible to "transform" them into low volume high survivability versions? And when you need the volume you can transform them into high volume low survivability versions.
These things already exist in game. Use a scimitar or two if you are worried about a gank. Shield reps hit immediately so that could be enough to keep the gank from working. Use a booster ship to boost EHP. Use both. Look at eve-kill.net to see if a gank squad is currently active along your route (look at likely gank systems).
And even if you can tank them, what are you going to do? Tank it and carry an even higher value cargo? Then you make it possible for the gank squad to just add more pilots. You are just moving the bar around in terms of gankability. And if you aren't sitting there watching that damn ship every second you fly it, you could be ganked in a 0.6 or 0.7 system...even with your tank because if you aren't there watching it, you wont be there to turn on the tank--i.e. you'll in effect have no tank. At which point, I'm sure people will come back saying, "OMG, please buff freighters warp speed and align times!!!"
Basically, I see these threads pretty much as, "Oh my god, my freighter was ganked (cause I was dumb and overloaded it value wise). To the forums to ask for a way to tank my freighter."
Which the TL;DR is: buff freighters cause I was dumb. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
126
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Posted - 2013.04.27 17:32:00 -
[93] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:Naomi Knight wrote: so basically if you flying a freighter and carry more than 650m isk in your cargo you are DOING IT WRONG , also you should UNINSTALL as you are total noob as you cant see you are making yourself a target worthy of picking
You are saying no one should freight over 650m? Can you then give instructions to people how to move for example nightmare hulls that themselves go way above this limit? Industrials are unable to fit these hulls 50km3 piece. Do you know how absurd and stupid this what you say sounds? How childish it sounds? If 650m is the limit you should be able to carry at once then make ganking harder so its about 1b that you should be able to carry because there are single objects that are easily worth more than 650m.
650 million is a super crazy ass paranoid limit. If the cargo drop is expected to be 650 million, the actual cargo value is more along the lines of 1.3 billion. Personally, I go for 1 billion myself, but I'm a bit paranoid.
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Shani Mukantagara
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
5
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Posted - 2013.04.27 19:53:00 -
[94] - Quote
Has any one considered T3 Freighters that work in the same way as T3 cruisers.
Suicide ganking of freighters have been increasing and increasing with each year, it would make scene for a freighter upgrade. If your backbone is getting destroyed on a regular basis and you come to a stage where it pays off to invest into new technologies.
Subsystems for resistance Subsystems for armour/hull/shield increase Jump Drive subsystem's Long range / Short range Subsystems that increase Cargo Capacity Subsystems that increase Fuel Bay to specialise is moving isotopes and strontium Subsystems to add a ore hold to specialise in moving Ore and minerals Subsystems that add Ship Hangers to specialise in moving packaged/ unpackaged ships Subsystems that increase Warp-speed and Agility
Each subsystem would have a negative effect for example:
Jump Drive Subsystem would decrease your agility and cargo hold
Fitting Ship Hangers would result in only having a minimal Cargo hold a few thousand m3
Allows people to focus on Hauling one type of commodity / resource and be efficient at it. Today's freighters will still be around as the entry level freighter
This cool Subsystem would make capital warfare more interesting, would also make titans more focused on one thing:
Subsystem for Hanger Subsystems for GangLinks Subsystem for being a mobile Cyno Beacon Subsystems for tanking Subsystems for Jump portaling Subsystems for Damage Subsystem for Star Gate construction Subsystem for Stargate Destruction
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'MOTHER SHIPS'!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
325
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Posted - 2013.04.27 22:02:00 -
[95] - Quote
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=17505933 this kill does not exists i ve just made it up to support my posts , oh wait i havent... so lets see 10m isk in cargo 4.5m isk in loot hmm it is like that carring less than 1bill still doesnt help you at all
pls bring us the blabla why this kill is an exception etc. |
Dave Stark
2911
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Posted - 2013.04.27 22:20:00 -
[96] - Quote
Naomi Knight wrote:pls bring us the blabla why this kill is an exception etc.
read the comments, this pilot did something to uspet some one.
could you try harder not to find extreme cases and try and present them as every day cases? we're getting bored of pointing out how bad you are at this. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
128
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Posted - 2013.04.27 23:28:00 -
[97] - Quote
Shani Mukantagara wrote:Has any one considered T3 Freighters that work in the same way as T3 cruisers.
Suicide ganking of freighters have been increasing and increasing with each year, it would make scene for a freighter upgrade. If your backbone is getting destroyed on a regular basis and you come to a stage where it pays off to invest into new technologies.
What evidence is there of this? Serious question. And don't look at the absolutely numbers look at the ratio of freighters ganked to freighters.
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Luciel Abraxas
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
6
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Posted - 2013.04.28 05:21:00 -
[98] - Quote
Hull tanking ships? Good, then there is no sense in not having at least one fittable low slot for a damage control. No fittable slots put the Freighter class ship on the same plane than shuttles... |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1131
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Posted - 2013.04.28 08:43:00 -
[99] - Quote
Luciel Abraxas wrote:Hull tanking ships? Good, then there is no sense in not having at least one fittable low slot for a damage control. No fittable slots put the Freighter class ship on the same plane than shuttles... Or maybe, it could be a way to find a new reason to be for the Reinforced Bulkheads
But what happens when people fit a cargo expander and cry even more when they get ganked in their new, bigger freighter? |
Dave Stark
2919
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Posted - 2013.04.28 09:37:00 -
[100] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Luciel Abraxas wrote:Hull tanking ships? Good, then there is no sense in not having at least one fittable low slot for a damage control. No fittable slots put the Freighter class ship on the same plane than shuttles... Or maybe, it could be a way to find a new reason to be for the Reinforced Bulkheads But what happens when people fit a cargo expander and cry even more when they get ganked in their new, bigger freighter?
we laugh, and offer to sell back their cargo at unreasonably inflated prices. |
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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
75
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Posted - 2013.04.28 10:14:00 -
[101] - Quote
Luciel Abraxas wrote:Hull tanking ships? Good, then there is no sense in not having at least one fittable low slot for a damage control. No fittable slots put the Freighter class ship on the same plane than shuttles... Or maybe, it could be a way to find a new reason to be for the Reinforced Bulkheads There is a reason why none of freighters have over 1mil m3 of cargo even @all5 skills. Add low/rig slot on any freighter and you'll see carriers being smuggled to highsec. |
Shani Mukantagara
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
5
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Posted - 2013.04.28 12:29:00 -
[102] - Quote
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:Well, what im more bothered with freighters is they have chance of survival if they get attacked (and lets assume the attackers know a bit what they do). And i also agree you cant just buff them, it should still be possible to take them down. But at least the should have chance. Maybe it should be possible to "transform" them into low volume high survivability versions? And when you need the volume you can transform them into high volume low survivability versions.
This is why having a T3 subsystem freighter is a good idea, people can choose bigger cargo over survivability or speed, instead of giving them mod slots. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
135
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Posted - 2013.04.28 16:22:00 -
[103] - Quote
Shani Mukantagara wrote:Luke Hammarskjold wrote:Well, what im more bothered with freighters is they have chance of survival if they get attacked (and lets assume the attackers know a bit what they do). And i also agree you cant just buff them, it should still be possible to take them down. But at least the should have chance. Maybe it should be possible to "transform" them into low volume high survivability versions? And when you need the volume you can transform them into high volume low survivability versions. This is why having a T3 subsystem freighter is a good idea, people can choose bigger cargo over survivability or speed, instead of giving them mod slots.
The issue with freighter ganking, is generally a bad decision by the freighter pilot.
"Let me see, I'll put all my possessions into one ship, they have a value of x (which is displayed in the lower right hand corner of the screen for their cargo hold) which is worth N times what 5 taloses and 10 catalysts are worth. I'll undock, fly through a choke point system with a sec status of 0.5 to get where I want to go. What could possibly go wrong?"
So long as N > 2 there is a risk of being ganked. The higher N goes, the higher the risk goes.
You want a chance to survive a gank...best way to do that is to avoid the gank in the first place. Shocking I know.
It reminds me of a guy I used to know in game. He came into chat and was talking about how he was hauling stuff for a friend and got ganked and now has to buy the guy new stuff. We asked him where he was ganked, his answer...Rancer. He decided to fly through Rancer...to save a few jumps...in an industrial. This was awhile ago, but even I knew that was a bad, bad decision. After that we laughed at him. |
Luke Hammarskjold
Seventh Heaven's Retinue Dominatus Atrum Mortis
5
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Posted - 2013.04.28 17:05:00 -
[104] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Luke Hammarskjold wrote:Well, what im more bothered with freighters is they have chance of survival if they get attacked (and lets assume the attackers know a bit what they do). And i also agree you cant just buff them, it should still be possible to take them down. But at least the should have chance. Maybe it should be possible to "transform" them into low volume high survivability versions? And when you need the volume you can transform them into high volume low survivability versions. These things already exist in game. Use a scimitar or two if you are worried about a gank. Shield reps hit immediately so that could be enough to keep the gank from working. Use a booster ship to boost EHP. Use both. Look at eve-kill.net to see if a gank squad is currently active along your route (look at likely gank systems). And even if you can tank them, what are you going to do? Tank it and carry an even higher value cargo? Then you make it possible for the gank squad to just add more pilots. You are just moving the bar around in terms of gankability. And if you aren't sitting there watching that damn ship every second you fly it, you could be ganked in a 0.6 or 0.7 system...even with your tank because if you aren't there watching it, you wont be there to turn on the tank--i.e. you'll in effect have no tank. At which point, I'm sure people will come back saying, "OMG, please buff freighters warp speed and align times!!!" Basically, I see these threads pretty much as, "Oh my god, my freighter was ganked ( cause I was dumb and overloaded it value wise). To the forums to ask for a way to tank my freighter." Which the TL;DR is: buff freighters cause I was dumb.
At least I will have a choice. At the moment there is no real choice, if you autopilot or if you are present there is not much you can do against bumping and ganking. And for your info, my freighter wasnt ganked cause I don't own one, mainly because of the issue we discuss. |
Luke Hammarskjold
Seventh Heaven's Retinue Dominatus Atrum Mortis
5
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Posted - 2013.04.28 17:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
Shani Mukantagara wrote:Luke Hammarskjold wrote:Well, what im more bothered with freighters is they have chance of survival if they get attacked (and lets assume the attackers know a bit what they do). And i also agree you cant just buff them, it should still be possible to take them down. But at least the should have chance. Maybe it should be possible to "transform" them into low volume high survivability versions? And when you need the volume you can transform them into high volume low survivability versions. This is why having a T3 subsystem freighter is a good idea, people can choose bigger cargo over survivability or speed, instead of giving them mod slots.
Agreed, I think its a really good proposition. It would give freighter pilots a choice, cause there is no real one atm. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
136
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 17:44:00 -
[106] - Quote
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
At least I will have a choice. At the moment there is no real choice, if you autopilot or if you are present there is not much you can do against bumping and ganking. And for your info, my freighter wasnt ganked cause I don't own one, mainly because of the issue we discuss.
You have a choice now, don't fill that freighter with an overly valuable cargo. Or go for it and take the risk.
If a group decides they are going to gank freighters period, no matter the losses, value of the cargo, etc. and you are one of the people they pick, no matter what you are pretty much screwed. Freighters are big and slow, as such they are vulnerable to this kind of thing.
As for not owning a freighter now because of the lack of choice and ganking, that's your choice, but it indicates an extremely high level of risk aversion...are you sure this game is for you? I'm not trying to be a ****, but there are very few instances where you are very/totally safe. Those are:
1. logged off. 2. Sitting in a station. 3. Sitting at a safe cloaked.
That is pretty much it. I suppose you could add a POS, but eventually you'll have to fuel the damn thing, so I left it off.
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androch
Shadows Of The Requiem Li3 Federation
53
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Posted - 2013.04.28 18:58:00 -
[107] - Quote
how are they broken? they haul alot, they have alot of hp to burn through, and they serve their purpose |
Luke Hammarskjold
Seventh Heaven's Retinue Dominatus Atrum Mortis
5
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Posted - 2013.04.29 04:47:00 -
[108] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
At least I will have a choice. At the moment there is no real choice, if you autopilot or if you are present there is not much you can do against bumping and ganking. And for your info, my freighter wasnt ganked cause I don't own one, mainly because of the issue we discuss.
You have a choice now, don't fill that freighter with an overly valuable cargo. Or go for it and take the risk. If a group decides they are going to gank freighters period, no matter the losses, value of the cargo, etc. and you are one of the people they pick, no matter what you are pretty much screwed. Freighters are big and slow, as such they are vulnerable to this kind of thing. As for not owning a freighter now because of the lack of choice and ganking, that's your choice, but it indicates an extremely high level of risk aversion...are you sure this game is for you? I'm not trying to be a ****, but there are very few instances where you are very/totally safe. Those are: 1. logged off. 2. Sitting in a station. 3. Sitting at a safe cloaked. That is pretty much it. I suppose you could add a POS, but eventually you'll have to fuel the damn thing, so I left it off.
Yes you are screwed, but how much screwed is another thing. I'm not asking for giving freighters extra hp, just the ability to choose between high protection and less less cargo or high cargo and little protection.
As for the risk I don't have problems with it. But a 0% survivability is not my thing. I don't want to loose a 1,5 bil ship because a group of morons wanted to have a bit of fun. And yes, your tier 3 fitted battle-cruisers sum up to over a bil, but the cost is divided between many players, but for the freighter pilot its divide by one.
For your attempt in being funny I will give you a C-, I suggest keeping your hands away from it. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 07:04:00 -
[109] - Quote
Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
As for the risk I don't have problems with it. But a 0% survivability is not my thing. I don't want to loose a 1,5 bil ship because a group of morons wanted to have a bit of fun. And yes, your tier 3 fitted battle-cruisers sum up to over a bil, but the cost is divided between many players, but for the freighter pilot its divide by one.
So? Just because 1 player suffers a large loss means nothing. Not in this game. And it isn't 0% survivability unless they just want to kill you no matter what. In the latter case not much can be done. In general though don't fill your freighter with a cargo that is too valuable and generally you'll be fine.
Quote:For your attempt in being funny I will give you a C-, I suggest keeping your hands away from it.
Maybe you need to go to the doctor to get your humorous looked at. |
Cari Cullejen
Thukker Tribe Holdings Inc. Gathering Of Nomadic Explorers
24
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Posted - 2013.04.29 09:02:00 -
[110] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
As for the risk I don't have problems with it. But a 0% survivability is not my thing. I don't want to loose a 1,5 bil ship because a group of morons wanted to have a bit of fun. And yes, your tier 3 fitted battle-cruisers sum up to over a bil, but the cost is divided between many players, but for the freighter pilot its divide by one.
So? Just because 1 player suffers a large loss means nothing. Not in this game. And it isn't 0% survivability unless they just want to kill you no matter what. In the latter case not much can be done. In general though don't fill your freighter with a cargo that is too valuable and generally you'll be fine. Quote:For your attempt in being funny I will give you a C-, I suggest keeping your hands away from it. Maybe you need to go to the doctor to get your humorous looked at.
According to what you have said the only way to not get ganked in a freighter is to:
1. Not Undock...
Alright thank you,
In love with CCP Sunset, and maybe-áCCP t0rfifrans :3 |
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
577
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Posted - 2013.04.29 14:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
Sevastian Liao wrote:
1) Freighters are not meant to be taken into high risk areas to begin with
the only way to build an outpost is by taking a freighter into null sec. They will not fit in anything else. I believe ihubs also require a freighter.
Sevastian Liao wrote: 2) Freighters are non - combat ships and should be able to be ganked (boarded) relatively easily by a determined, coordinated group of gankers (pirates), regardless of how much difference in ISK value there is between the ganker ships and the freighters (Multi - million dollar tanker versus couple guys in a speedboat with AKs and RPGs)
First of all show me a situation where a 18 wheeler was attacked by a tank. My analogy of comparing freighters to APC's was right on. they do not use unarmored 18 wheelers to pass through a war zone. they used armored vehicles. You say high sec is not a war zone? Well in EVE combat ships are the equivalent of tanks and military vehicles in the real world. If it is not a war zone then why are they there. Where 18 wheelers are used there are no tanks to attack them. By your logic then there should be no military ships in high sec, aside from concord (the police) then freighters would be able to fit a similar role to 18 wheelers.
I a not asking for combat ships to be nerfed in any way. Neither am I asking for freighters to be turned into combat ships. I am only asking that the balance of risk vs reward for freighters be restored to what it was 3-4 ago.
At that time a freighter gank would cost about the cost of the freighter hull. - this is a fact.
Currently a freighter gank can be done for about half the cost of the freighter hull. - this also is a fact.
It is currently twice as easy to gank a freighter as it was 3-4 years ago.
To restore the balance, as in the risk vs reward freighter were meant to have when they were added to the game. I am not asking for them to be made ungankable, but if they were buffed from the current 200-2560k ehp to 5-600k ehp they would still be easy to gank. But be able to haul a decent load before they became profitable.
This would not give them more than they had before. A load worth about 1 billion isk 3-4 years ago, the same load would now be worth about 2 billion. So not only can freighters be ganked twice as easily as they used to, but can only haul half as much as they used to safely. No matter how you look at it, this is an imbalance when compared to what they could do 3-4 years ago.
At any rate I am done discussing this. Recent comments from Dev blogs at fan fest has indicated that not only are freighters and jump freighters to get a similar balance pass as the mining ships did, but all transport/hauler ships will be looked at. This will happen, regardless of how much the gankers cry about it. This thread alone has filled my bucket of ganker tears. I may have to start selling them while they are still rare. The ganker tears will really start to flow when industrial ships get there balance pass in the next couple months. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
137
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 14:30:00 -
[112] - Quote
Cari Cullejen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Luke Hammarskjold wrote:
As for the risk I don't have problems with it. But a 0% survivability is not my thing. I don't want to loose a 1,5 bil ship because a group of morons wanted to have a bit of fun. And yes, your tier 3 fitted battle-cruisers sum up to over a bil, but the cost is divided between many players, but for the freighter pilot its divide by one.
So? Just because 1 player suffers a large loss means nothing. Not in this game. And it isn't 0% survivability unless they just want to kill you no matter what. In the latter case not much can be done. In general though don't fill your freighter with a cargo that is too valuable and generally you'll be fine. Quote:For your attempt in being funny I will give you a C-, I suggest keeping your hands away from it. Maybe you need to go to the doctor to get your humorous looked at. According to what you have said the only way to not get ganked in a freighter is to: 1. Not Undock... Alright thank you,
Yes, if you want to reduce the chance of ganking to zero that is you only option. It is you only option now, and it will be your only option in the future even if they buff freighters. If this bothers you; wrong game.
Now you can influence your chances of being ganked. The current method now is to reduce the value of your cargo. Another player and I looked at the issue of being ganked with a low value cargo...to be fair he did most of the work. You can see the numbers here
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2838491#post2838491
The chance of getting suicide ganked with a low value targe is in the neighborhood of 0.54% - 0.054%. Note this number would be different if you were to include the Burn Jita events and almost surely higher.
BTW for the humor impaired, none of the above is meant to be humorous. |
Luciel Abraxas
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
8
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Posted - 2013.05.01 08:51:00 -
[113] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:
But what happens when people fit a cargo expander and cry even more when they get ganked in their new, bigger freighter?
Good point. But CCP could even write the code for making that slot fittable just with the Damage Control.
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