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Resmand Fredricks
Helping on Tomorrow Today
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 01:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ok, so here is my idea I propose a skill to hasten jump clone jumping. I am not sure of all of the ways this can be exploited but do want to hear others ides. thanks in advance for the responses. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
126
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Posted - 2013.04.27 01:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Malcanis' Law strikes again! |
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
45
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Posted - 2013.04.27 01:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
I would really appreciate it if you would take a few seconds to use the search feature before posting new threads.
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Resmand Fredricks
Helping on Tomorrow Today
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 01:48:00 -
[4] - Quote
First to the post Malcanis law strikes Again. that does not share any ideas or really anything other than trolling.
As to the second thanks for that link. reading through what is in there now. but would prefer your snide comment to have been better worded. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
126
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Posted - 2013.04.27 02:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
What the heck, you expect people to do work before posting. Jesus Christ man. This is the internet! |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
126
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Posted - 2013.04.27 02:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
Resmand Fredricks wrote:First to the post Malcanis law strikes Again. that does not share any ideas or really anything other than trolling.
On the contrary it is a very concise critique of your idea.
It is will disproportionately benefit the older/richer players over the younger/less rich players (Malcanis' Law). Maybe you prefer a wall of text to two words. I prefer concise criticism.
Another critique, it will exacerbate whatever problems currently exist with force projection.
Based on those two points. No, your idea is probably a bad one. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
789
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Posted - 2013.04.27 04:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
This idea was not billed as 'to help the newbies,' and so Malcanis' Law does not apply.
Thanks for playing.
EDIT: I do actually like this idea, most people play for less than 5 hours per night, so a skill that reduces jump clone timers by 1 hour per level seems fine to me. This would allow me to jump about once per day still, but I would be able to jump back at the beginning of my play time, rather than having to wait until near the end. |
Resmand Fredricks
Helping on Tomorrow Today
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 04:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Even if it does exasperate force projection it means more fights. Which means more kills Which means more ships being built Which means more demand for industry Which means mineral prices go up which means ship prices go up and the whole economy of Eve flourishes.
Force Projection would not really be an issue with a 12 hour timer on it. I am sure that the majority of players are not on Eve for 12 hours every day most of us have a job and bills to pay. I could see Force Projection being an issue if the timer were removed or brought down to an insane number like 1 hour between jumps but 12 hours seems reasonable to me.
And here is the problem with Malcanis law as he points out http://themittani.com/features/5-years-lex-malcanis. Most every change has a greater effect on those of us that have been playing longer than a month or two. Which in a game that depends solely on Skill points that are only acquired by having game time of course most changes to game play are going to benefit the older more experienced players more. They (older players) will always have an advantage over the younger player.
But back to the point 12 hours to me seems like it would benefit the economy of Eve I can not see how that is a bad thing. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
128
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Posted - 2013.04.27 23:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Resmand Fredricks wrote:Even if it does exasperate force projection it means more fights. Which means more kills Which means more ships being built Which means more demand for industry Which means mineral prices go up which means ship prices go up and the whole economy of Eve flourishes.
To the extent that you have alliances holding disproportionately more space than their size would indicate it also limits opportunities for other alliances.
Quote:Force Projection would not really be an issue with a 12 hour timer on it. I am sure that the majority of players are not on Eve for 12 hours every day most of us have a job and bills to pay. I could see Force Projection being an issue if the timer were removed or brought down to an insane number like 1 hour between jumps but 12 hours seems reasonable to me.
Sure it would, you could jump clone twice as often.
Quote:And here is the problem with Malcanis law as he points out . Most every change has a greater effect on those of us that have been playing longer than a month or two. Which in a game that depends solely on Skill points that are only acquired by having game time of course most changes to game play are going to benefit the older more experienced players more. They (older players) will always have an advantage over the younger player.
That isn't a problem with the law, that is merely an aspect of the law. You are proposing something that benefits players with jump clones...those players aren't even new players. So it is absolutely the case that the older players benefit. Now maybe that isn't a problem here, but the fact that an older player is going to enjoy faster training times, or be able to better optimize his implants for the day, it will allow these older players to acquire skill points and wealth, which they already tend to have in great abundance, even faster.
Malcanis' examples of where the law didn't apply still have the older players benefitting, just the benefit in those exceptions were greater for the new player. Here this change doesn't even consider new players.
You are basically rent seeking, as economists would call it. Or as Malcanis would put it,
Quote:Changes can benefit new players. But that vast majority, the 99.999th percentile of suggested changes to EVE, are made not for the benefit of the game as a whole but for the benefit of the person making the suggestion. These changes will always follow the general case of the Law. Any CCP-implemented imbalance between opportunity and effort will be maximally exploited quicker than you can say "Reprocess 1.29M units of Pax Amarria per day"
So the question is does this make the game better in general? If you think so, why do you think so? I know you think it will make the game better for you, but then you are reasoning from an unrepresentative sample. You need to tell us how this will make the game better for those who wont benefit from this change directly. What are the indirect benefits that this change will bring to the anyone playing the game? |
Resmand Fredricks
Helping on Tomorrow Today
0
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Posted - 2013.04.28 07:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Resmand Fredricks wrote:Even if it does exasperate force projection it means more fights. Which means more kills Which means more ships being built Which means more demand for industry Which means mineral prices go up which means ship prices go up and the whole economy of Eve flourishes. To the extent that you have alliances holding disproportionately more space than their size would indicate it also limits opportunities for other alliances. Which yet again means more combat. Quote:Force Projection would not really be an issue with a 12 hour timer on it. I am sure that the majority of players are not on Eve for 12 hours every day most of us have a job and bills to pay. I could see Force Projection being an issue if the timer were removed or brought down to an insane number like 1 hour between jumps but 12 hours seems reasonable to me. Sure it would, you could jump clone twice as often. Still not going to break the game any more than Jump Bridges or Cyno's. it makes it so my one character can do more than just combat this 24 hour block mining this 24 hour block and then training this 24 hour block. now I can go PvP the next morning get up and reset for my mining op that evening. then knowing I won't be on for the next couple days switch back to my training clone. Quote:And here is the problem with Malcanis law as he points out . Most every change has a greater effect on those of us that have been playing longer than a month or two. Which in a game that depends solely on Skill points that are only acquired by having game time of course most changes to game play are going to benefit the older more experienced players more. They (older players) will always have an advantage over the younger player. That isn't a problem with the law, that is merely an aspect of the law. You are proposing something that benefits players with jump clones...those players aren't even new players. So it is absolutely the case that the older players benefit. Now maybe that isn't a problem here, but the fact that an older player is going to enjoy faster training times, or be able to better optimize his implants for the day, it will allow these older players to acquire skill points and wealth, which they already tend to have in great abundance, even faster. Malcanis' examples of where the law didn't apply still have the older players benefitting, just the benefit in those exceptions were greater for the new player. Here this change doesn't even consider new players. You are basically rent seeking, as economists would call it. Or as Malcanis would put it, That is the point of this though. Not everything needs to be to the benefit of the newbies. Last time I checked the Newbies were not the ones that have helped keep Eve up and running for the past ten years. There is no problem with giving the older more veteran players something that will help them out. And with how it should change PvP to make it more active Everyone will need more money anyway. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking I would argue that what I propose is not rent seeking as it would require more miners to work harder there by improving the life of everyone from the base up. And as I was always taught industry is the basis of all economy. Quote:Changes can benefit new players. But that vast majority, the 99.999th percentile of suggested changes to EVE, are made not for the benefit of the game as a whole but for the benefit of the person making the suggestion. These changes will always follow the general case of the Law. Any CCP-implemented imbalance between opportunity and effort will be maximally exploited quicker than you can say "Reprocess 1.29M units of Pax Amarria per day" So the question is does this make the game better in general? If you think so, why do you think so? I know you think it will make the game better for you, but then you are reasoning from an unrepresentative sample. You need to tell us how this will make the game better for those who wont benefit from this change directly. What are the indirect benefits that this change will bring to the anyone playing the game?
As I have said before I believe that it does make the game better in general. It encourages more miners to work harder at mining and more alliances and Corps to protect miners to protect the one thing that we all need in Eve Ships. It also helps bring the economy up in all the basics of Eve from Ammunition development to Blueprints everyone will have to make more to increase the economy. As said again the indirect benefits are economic stimulus. Is mining still going to be eye bleedingly boring absolutely but until we go out there and actually have to mine it by hand I think that is what we are stuck with. What it will do is make mining more rewarding and make Alliances and Corporations protect their assets more vigorously. Thereby Again increasing PvP.
You said "I know you think it will make the game better for you" However this is not the case in my play style which is much different than most I don't actually get to play as much as I would like to anymore. I now Drive a semi for a living and it is not quite so easy to get on Eve as much as I used to now I pay for my account with money and basically just train my skills. So this does not help me much yeah I can get online after playing and switch back to my training implants the next morning but I bet that the majority of other players would get much more use out of this than I would.
I know many a player in Eve that are not online for any more than a few hours a night in most cases this will not change the way that a lot of people play the game. If you give an older player anything new they are somehow going to figure out a way to exploit it. |
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Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
684
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Posted - 2013.04.28 10:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Resmand Fredricks wrote:Even if it does exasperate force projection it means more fights. Which means more kills Which means more ships being built Which means more demand for industry Which means mineral prices go up which means ship prices go up and the whole economy of Eve flourishes.
I suspect it means fewer fights, because greater strategic mobility make people more vulnerable to distant groups, which makes them more fearful to act aggressively because the risks are greater and less easily quantifiable, resulting in the stagnation of nullsec.
Of course, it's a minor issue compared to jump mechanics, but the principle is the same. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
136
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Posted - 2013.04.28 17:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Resmand Fredricks wrote: As I have said before I believe that it does make the game better in general. It encourages more miners to work harder at mining and more alliances and Corps to protect miners to protect the one thing that we all need in Eve Ships. It also helps bring the economy up in all the basics of Eve from Ammunition development to Blueprints everyone will have to make more to increase the economy. As said again the indirect benefits are economic stimulus. Is mining still going to be eye bleedingly boring absolutely but until we go out there and actually have to mine it by hand I think that is what we are stuck with. What it will do is make mining more rewarding and make Alliances and Corporations protect their assets more vigorously. Thereby Again increasing PvP.
This is not an argument, but a sequence of assertions that might be true, or not. For example, why will it make miners work harder? You merely assert it as if it has to be the case because jump clone timers are shorter? Why? Why would an empire miner have to work harder? What is the causal mechanism here?
Also, it isn't clear that it will lead to more PVP. Suppose Alliance A deploys somewhere to fight. Right now their neighbor might think, "Ha! Lets invade while they are busy!." Yeah, the current mechanic allows for jump cloning home by Alliance A for defense, but it is not as easy if JC timers are down to say 3 hours or even 12. But if JC timers drop now the neighboring alliance might say, "Mmmm, maybe we shouldn't invade them."
In that case, it could be less PVP. Granted Alliance A may have to leave some of their capitals and super capitals in their deployment system (or not, moving jump drive capable ships around isn't that hard although it can be costly). Or maybe not. Maybe Alliance A left some capitals at home for precisely this reason given the change in JC timers. Especially those older/richer players who can afford to have 2 carriers and/or 2 dreads.
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