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Berluth Luthian
Meltdown.
67
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Posted - 2013.04.29 19:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I heard someone complain about the difficulty of getting fuel blocks into WH space and wondered if anyone did this (and what is the most unsecure part about it)
1) Find lowsec/highsec exit. 2) Use freighter/hauler if possible to haul blocks to station. 3) Fill blocks into secure containers 4) Use really big hauler to drop containers next to wormhole. (web freighter off of station?) 5) Fill containers with blocks from large cargo container 6) Use other hauler to run blocks from containers, through WH, to sites in W-Space |
Bloody Wench
322
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Posted - 2013.04.29 20:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
Talk about reinventing the wheel jesus H christ.
Put Ice Products in Hauler/Orca go back to POS.
Make POS fuel PI components locally, import only Ice Products, mix at POS. |
Zeras Allyndar
Mass Disruption
9
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Posted - 2013.04.29 20:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
It seems like the only step that you would be saving is the jump from the Station to the WH each time. You would be replacing it with filling/emptying cargo containers which I would presume would take about the same amount of time. You still need to wait out your Polarization timer though, which the jump to the Station is good for.
The "best" way to fuel the POS in my opinion is to do it with as large of a fleet as you can muster and as quickly as possible. Make as few trips as possible so the locals dont have time to figure out exactly what you are planning. Fuel early and fuel often. ISD Ezwal: "Well, lets put it this way, if I would clean this thread by the forum rules, there would be very little left." |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
429
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Posted - 2013.04.29 20:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
If you are in a small corp and only have 1-3 towers, you will have plenty of good connections to put an Itty V or even Orca through, lasting you a month or more of fuel. In fact, in everything other than a c4 you will have a direct connection to hisec at least once in a while, so you can safely haul in many months worth of fuel. With haulers in c1-3 or freighter in c5-6.
In a c4 you will also have enough near-secure connections where you have a c4-c3-hisec or similar with no other holes. With proper scouting you are 99% safe in such a chain.
If you are in a larger corp with a lot of towers, you also have a lot of people who can protect you, so it's even less of a problem. . |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
245
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Posted - 2013.04.29 20:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Its the one thing I really dislike about WH space - as I'm paranoid and like to haul with a prowler which manages about 2 days worth for a large POS max - obviously I don't haul that way as it would take like 14 trips to bring a months worth of fuel in. |
Sleeper Seeker
0
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Posted - 2013.04.29 21:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:Talk about reinventing the wheel jesus H christ.
Put Ice Products in Hauler/Orca go back to POS.
Make POS fuel PI components locally, import only Ice Products, mix at POS.
This |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1735
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Posted - 2013.04.29 21:26:00 -
[7] - Quote
We have 50+ active towers in our C6 and have no issues with getting fuel in so no one else should either. It's really not that hard to fill some haulers with blocks and jump them into a WH... |
Bloody Wench
323
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Posted - 2013.04.29 21:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Its the one thing I really dislike about WH space - as I'm paranoid and like to haul with a prowler which manages about 2 days worth for a large POS max - obviously I don't haul that way as it would take like 14 trips to bring a months worth of fuel in.
CMON SON STOP BEING SUCH A PUSS, DRAG THAT ORCA OUT AND MAKE A RUN.
k, i'm done yelling.
I'd rather do 5 jumps through WHs in an orca than a single lowsec jump. In fact I won't do a single lowsec jump, not ever. |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
404
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Posted - 2013.04.29 21:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ok I am all for using this forum to help out new players / answer question about living in w-space, but at some point I have to slap myself to make sure that the question was actually asked and its not a figment of my imagination. I mean seriously guys, just like Jack Milton pointed out, fueling your towers should not be a problem for anyone. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1766
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Posted - 2013.04.29 22:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
When I was living in a C5, we'd get about one random hisec wormhole (D792 when outgoing, don't remember the incoming one as it was much more rare). I'd fill a Charon with fuels and stuff for the trip in, then haul out PI and compressed ore on the return trip.
When we lived in a C2, we'd use an Orca (4 round trips), and sometimes just Deep Space Transports. |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
245
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Posted - 2013.04.29 22:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:
CMON SON STOP BEING SUCH A PUSS, DRAG THAT ORCA OUT AND MAKE A RUN.
k, i'm done yelling.
I'd rather do 5 jumps through WHs in an orca than a single lowsec jump. In fact I won't do a single lowsec jump, not ever.
Orca is actually pretty safe if you use that trick - pretty hard to catch unless you land in a bubble unscouted. |
Albercheck
Crossfire Incorporated I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
7
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Posted - 2013.04.29 23:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Shake off the haters in this thread, op.
It can be nerveracking your first few months fueling a POS in a wormhole. A quick glance at killboards easily shows that transporting assets in/out of higher class wormholes can be risky business even if you're "doin' it right." So, a lot of the responses here seem to shrug off the risks associated with wormhole logistics.
I'm not saying you're screwed and to be scared shitless, but rather indicating that it's much better to have your concerned attitude than an apathetic attitude.
Having the budget is the biggest concern that kept me stresssed in the beginning. Even now with the upcoming ice changes I'm wondering how much my wormhole budget will need to expand. So you should make surenyou have the bank to support all your POS's.
Everyone has their own strategy in keeping their POS fueled. If you're actually going to make your blocks, I recommend building them OUTSIDE the wormhole, and then hauling them in. Someone above recommended hauling in ice, but POS refineries that are worth your while take a gross amount of CPU to operate. Moreover, you can assemble multiple jobs of fuel blocks in empire while in a POS you more than likely only have 1 or 2 slots that require even more CPU/PG.
One thing I'll mention is that you need to factor in the opportunity cost with your fuel production. You can indeed save 40-50m(ish) isk a month for a large POs by building the blocks yourself, but that involves hours of hauling and clicking. Maybe we are lazy, but my corporation straight up bought the fuel and just hauled it in for our first few months. Eventually someone said they wanted to head up the fueling process so we save money now. Anyway, long story short, while it might feel cool making your own fuel from scratch, it's really time consuming. I'd rather run a few WH sites over a few hours a month and pool the isk to buy fuel versus constantly hauling PI crap and ice for days and days. Food for thought! |
Ronix Aideron
The Ugly Ass Kickers That Escalated Quickly
92
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Posted - 2013.04.30 13:22:00 -
[13] - Quote
Rroff wrote:
Orca is actually pretty safe if you use that trick - pretty hard to catch unless you land in a bubble unscouted.
There are no bubbles in low sec. http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron |
Gnaw LF
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
404
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 15:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
I might be a hater, but just want to note that Orca is a horrible way to keep your POS supplied. Mass efficiency is just crap. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
245
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Posted - 2013.04.30 16:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ronix Aideron wrote:[quote=Rroff] There are no bubbles in low sec.
Was meaning down the WH chain. |
Gary Bell
Hard Knocks Inc.
44
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Posted - 2013.04.30 16:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
For those who are slow.. You dont haul in unprocessed ice.. You do PI in the wormhole.. (Buy from corp members) Then haul in the refined ice products to combine with the PI for fuel blocks.. Not haul in ice and refine in the wormhole..
Learn to spaceship..
PS you can get a metric crap shalatta ton of ice products into a wormhole with one freighter. Enough for crap tons of fuel blocks as you mix it with the PI you are making in the hole..
k thanks bye |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1331
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Posted - 2013.04.30 16:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
Sleeper Seeker wrote:Bloody Wench wrote:Talk about reinventing the wheel jesus H christ.
Put Ice Products in Hauler/Orca go back to POS.
Make POS fuel PI components locally, import only Ice Products, mix at POS. This
Honestly not worth it IMO. The ice products are most of the hauling bulk
For a large tower you need 28,800 for 30 days, which is 144,000m3 The Ice products needed to make 28,800 fuel blocks will run you ~140,000m3
There is literally no reason to bother.
Gnaw LF wrote:I might be a hater, but just want to note that Orca is a horrible way to keep your POS supplied. Mass efficiency is just crap.
I love generalizations. It all depends on many factors. Living in sub C5 (so no freighter access) an orca can be good at times. One max cargo freighter can bring in 3.6 itty 5 loads worth of fuel in one jump. Add some webbing scouts and you can get a whole month of fuel in in one run. And usually that means getting the orca in and out before the residents you are flying through notice and can camp the hole. good chance in that situation they'd be ready for your second or third itty run.
If you add some ships to the SMA of the orca at the same time you get even more bang for your buck. Of course you are risking more bang if you get caught too... |
Marsan
Emergency and I
98
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Posted - 2013.04.30 17:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:I might be a hater, but just want to note that Orca is a horrible way to keep your POS supplied. Mass efficiency is just crap.
Yea but who cares unless you've been mining and runnning PI alot. Most holes can fit at least 2 Orcas there and back which should be enough fuel for most corps, and those that it doesn't can generally bring a freighter in their hole. Mass efficiency only matters if you need the hole to stay up for further logistics. Orca's win in time efficiency. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
Kalel Nimrott
EG CORP Talocan United
272
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Posted - 2013.04.30 21:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Bring the ice in, cook the resr in home. Jesus .w Christ. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1332
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 21:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kalel Nimrott wrote:Bring the ice in, cook the resr in home. Jesus .w Christ.
Already explained as a waste of time. You save almost nothing on the hauling and increase the workload. |
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Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.05.01 01:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
How we do it - wait for a quiet route out into hisec. Use orcas or several Itty V runs to drag fuel blocks from a trade hub to a station near the WH chain's hisec exit. Move it in from there either in Itty V's (if the route is short and very quiet) or DSTs. If the route is dodgy enough that you'd want to use blockade runners, it's not worth the hassle running POS fuel in unless things have gone very wrong and a POS is about to run right out (and avoiding this is why you should always keep a month+ of fuel in the hole).
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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
98
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 04:56:00 -
[22] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Kalel Nimrott wrote:Bring the ice in, cook the resr in home. Jesus .w Christ. Already explained as a waste of time. You save almost nothing on the hauling and increase the workload. So you haul the PI components you make out of the hole, to wherever you're building the blocks with the ice products. Then the next time you get a connection you haul the finished blocks half way across the universe to the hole?
That doesn't exactly sound more efficient. Even hauling in blocks from trade hub and components to hub for sale sounds very roundabout. |
Euthanasia Anneto
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
8
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Posted - 2013.05.01 05:16:00 -
[23] - Quote
Georgina Parmala wrote:So you haul the PI components you make out of the hole, to wherever you're building the blocks with the ice products. Then the next time you get a connection you haul the finished blocks half way across the universe to the hole?
That doesn't exactly sound more efficient. Even hauling in blocks from trade hub and components to hub for sale sounds very roundabout. Agree on that one, and occasionally you hit that system where the ice products are way cheaper then a trade-hub or is the cost of home-made blocks tons cheaper then a trade-hub.
It's also how you plan the import of all above mentioned. Either all in one go or bits per day/week.
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Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1332
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 05:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Euthanasia Anneto wrote:Georgina Parmala wrote:So you haul the PI components you make out of the hole, to wherever you're building the blocks with the ice products. Then the next time you get a connection you haul the finished blocks half way across the universe to the hole?
That doesn't exactly sound more efficient. Even hauling in blocks from trade hub and components to hub for sale sounds very roundabout. Agree on that one, and occasionally you hit that system where the ice products are way cheaper then a trade-hub or is the cost of home-made blocks tons cheaper then a trade-hub. It's also how you plan the import of all above mentioned. Either all in one go or bits per day/week.
I guess in one way it depends on the WH you live in. When we as a corp can make a months worth of fuel running sites in 1-2 hours, its hard for me to get motivated to even set my PI back up (I have PI alts who have sat idle for 6+ months).
And yes, even if you are making PI, you can crunch the numbers. At perfect skills, you will need to haul in 136,368m3 of ice products to produce your fuel block inside your WH. (assuming large tower) That assumes you can make all your PI POS fuel inside.
For a large tower it takes 144,000m3 of fuel blocks per month. So making your fuel at the POS in your wormhole saves you a whopping 1 Iteron 5 load per month. Yes I consider that not really worth the extra effort.
IF you do PI, and you are not trying to just make POS fuels, you are now free to make the most space efficient PI you can and sell it for isk. I mean generally it is a two way street. Anything I am hauling from Jita will also include a trip back to Jita. We have several dedicated high sec haulers so if they haul fuel blocks to the WH entrance, they can haul stuff to market on their way back.
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Bloody Wench
327
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Posted - 2013.05.03 12:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Kalel Nimrott wrote:Bring the ice in, cook the resr in home. Jesus .w Christ. Already explained as a waste of time. You save almost nothing on the hauling and increase the workload.
It's less $$$ you're hauling through hisec. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1338
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 13:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
Bloody Wench wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Kalel Nimrott wrote:Bring the ice in, cook the resr in home. Jesus .w Christ. Already explained as a waste of time. You save almost nothing on the hauling and increase the workload. It's less $$$ you're hauling through hisec.
True,
But even 2-3 months of fuel in a freighter isn't much of a risk. And it still saves me time. |
Selene Nask
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
25
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Posted - 2013.05.03 14:56:00 -
[27] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:
I guess in one way it depends on the WH you live in. When we as a corp can make a months worth of fuel running sites in 1-2 hours, its hard for me to get motivated to even set my PI back up (I have PI alts who have sat idle for 6+ months).
And yes, even if you are making PI, you can crunch the numbers. At perfect skills, you will need to haul in 136,368m3 of ice products to produce your fuel block inside your WH. (assuming large tower) That assumes you can make all your PI POS fuel inside.
For a large tower it takes 144,000m3 of fuel blocks per month. So making your fuel at the POS in your wormhole saves you a whopping 1 Iteron 5 load per month. Yes I consider that not really worth the extra effort.
IF you do PI, and you are not trying to just make POS fuels, you are now free to make the most space efficient PI you can and sell it for isk. I mean generally it is a two way street. Anything I am hauling from Jita will also include a trip back to Jita. We have several dedicated high sec haulers so if they haul fuel blocks to the WH entrance, they can haul stuff to market on their way back.
As you say it really depends on the WH. It also depends on who is living in the WH and what skills the people have to work with. For my corp, which is small and mostly new people it is way more efficient to make blocks in house. Even without full PI skills we have enough people to supply enough PI mats for the fuel we need and still do their own thing to sell on the market. Our main industry people stay in the WH mostly full time so to make the blocks outside would mean travelling out. We tried it it's a logistical hassle to coordinate everyones PI mats and ship it out enough to make a run worth it and then back in. In house means that people just dump the fuel mats into a hanger when they can and get paid by the corp. It's dead easy to just have our ice miners mine and just truck in the ice products whenever the entrance happens to be nearby their stock.
Yes we could just buy blocks but the way we've set things up is to have the corp supporting our players to make isk while helping the corp. With how things are now I mine ice for about 10-12 hours a month. I truck the products in about 2 times a month whenever the entrance is convenient and someone is available to scout which is hardly a hassle. Then the industry people just make fuel at their leisure. For us it's got to the point that we're easily making enough to fuel another POS. We've even trucked fuel blocks out to sell when we've had lots of extra. (Not now though with the changes coming up)
Setting up our supply chain was a bit of a hassle but now that it's up and running it's so easy that we barely think about it. People just go about their business and our mat stock is always full. Then it's just " Oh the fuel bay is half full?" Slap in a run of blocks, several hours later take a minute to transfer the blocks directly from the assembly array and you're done.
Easy peasy. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
1338
|
Posted - 2013.05.03 15:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
Selene Nask wrote:Lots of words
You are correct it depends on how people want to live in their WH, what kind of WH it is etc.
All I was really trying to show in my original reply is that it is wrong to think that you are saving any significant hauling in with ice products only vs Fuel blocks, as the ice products comprise 95% of the bulk of fuel blocks. Literally for a large POS, hauling in Ice products vs fuel blocks only saves you ~1 iteron 5 run per month. Almost negligable.
Now, that being said, for the guys in my corp who still like doing PI, they can now focus on making profitable P3 mats, which on average are 65% more efficient isk/m3.
Hauling really isnt an issue, as everything that comes in goes back out, so every ship that hauls in fuel blocks can leave with PI and go sell it.
Either way, to each their own. The only point i was making is that hauling in Ice doesn't save you much m3 vs hauling in fuel blocks. |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Shockwave Sovereign Industries
5
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Posted - 2013.05.03 18:20:00 -
[29] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:Selene Nask wrote:Lots of words You are correct it depends on how people want to live in their WH, what kind of WH it is etc. All I was really trying to show in my original reply is that it is wrong to think that you are saving any significant hauling in with ice products only vs Fuel blocks, as the ice products comprise 95% of the bulk of fuel blocks. Literally for a large POS, hauling in Ice products vs fuel blocks only saves you ~1 iteron 5 run per month. Almost negligable. Now, that being said, for the guys in my corp who still like doing PI, they can now focus on making profitable P3 mats, which on average are 65% more efficient isk/m3. Hauling really isnt an issue, as everything that comes in goes back out, so every ship that hauls in fuel blocks can leave with PI and go sell it. Either way, to each their own. The only point i was making is that hauling in Ice doesn't save you much m3 vs hauling in fuel blocks.
We could use a mass efficient hauler, the Orca isn't cutting it, and the whole back and forth with iterons' is annoying.
Something that can drag in about 80 to 100,000m3 and not completely mass the entire whole in 1 shot. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.07 14:46:00 -
[30] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:So I heard someone complain about the difficulty of getting fuel blocks into WH space and wondered if anyone did this (and what is the most unsecure part about it)
1) Find lowsec/highsec exit. 2) Use freighter/hauler if possible to haul blocks to station. 3) Fill blocks into secure containers 4) Use really big hauler to drop containers next to wormhole. (web freighter off of station?) 5) Fill containers with blocks from large cargo container 6) Use other hauler to run blocks from containers, through WH, to sites in W-Space
There are really only two words for this. Orca
OR CA
TBH I don't see any advantage to taking the PI componets out to build the blocks and then bringing the blocks back in. Just bring in the ice and build the blocks inside. |
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