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DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
88
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Posted - 2013.04.30 03:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
TL;DR - I wish these things were at least a LOT cheaper. I'd at least fly them for LOL's.
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Premise: Marauders should seriously get some looking at.
Note: I'm not here to petition CCP for changes, I want to know if this is basically correct or if I am missing something.
Were this hulls used more heavily in the past? Is it simply that EVE has evolved "around" these ships and they just no longer fill the role they were designed for?
Why are such iconic ships so underused. Surely whenever someone asks "what mission ship should I get into" the answer should be "get a Marauder". L4 missioning and ratting should practically revolve around these hulls, balanced around the fact that they are expensive, hard to train for, and are slow, blundering behemoths that are easy prey for combat ships and they often require custom fits for specific missions, I mean, what other ships have hull bonuses to Tractor Beams?
They are obviously solo ships. Anyone that can dual box can do a far better job in practically any hull combo's, without flying around in a 1 billion ISK hull that also looks pretty on killmails. considering that it seems rather obvious that all Marauders Sensor Strength were specifically made to be perma-jammed if ever taken into actual PvP combat.
Every time EVE is patched, these hulls are heavily effected. Buffs to other ships makes Marauders even less useful, AI changes even more so, and new mission mechanics (like for example the new exploration mechanics) leaves them for dead compared to using a T3 Cruiser.
Are people actually flying these things anymore? Aside from a couple of very specific missions, I can't seem to fidn a reason for them to exist anymore (as they are anyway).
The next list isn't required reading, its just most of the points I had:
* Every time AI mechanics are changed, these hulls are the most effected. * These ships seem to be specifically designed for solo play. A mission ship with built in Noctis. * They seems oriented around L4 missions. L3's can be blitzed in far easier to get into hulls. * They have massive skilling times. A "careful noob" would just do L3's in a Drake, and get into an impossible to kill, omni-tanked Rattlesnake with Sentries. Both of these options are "cheap", lower skill, and even though a mission may take longer to complete, it's far easier on the nerves - and the wallet - when a screw up happens. * Everytime someone asks "What ship for L4's should I get", it's always Tengu, Machariel, or a particular Pirate ship with unusual bonuses/advantages vs specific NPC's. Vargur is the only Marauder that sometimes pops up, mostly because it's insta-hit, long range guns, and easier to manage. * Pure numbercrafting only in EVEMon, on a new toon - High Rated Battleclinic build (to fit it) = 202 days MINIMUM for "Marauders I" and minimum fit. A high rated Battleclinic Fit for a Caldari Navy Raven would be around 75 days, and around 100 for close to optimal.
I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
343
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Posted - 2013.04.30 03:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
The ship re balance pass will hit maradaurs in due time.
Marauders have been an expensive niche ship since inception, although I agree that they haven't... aged well. |
MrDiao
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
17
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Posted - 2013.04.30 03:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
Macherial and Vindicator are expensive as well, but many people use them to pvp still.
The problem on marauder is that the price does not agree with the performance (in pvp) , not the price itself. |
Lost True
Paradise project
2128
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:00:00 -
[4] - Quote
It's nothing in eve that takes too long to train.
And the price is fine, it's a carebear ship, after all.
I think they're should be buffed to be more suitable for it, so there will be much reason to fly them instead of pirate BS and T3.
Although i'm done with missions, at least until there will be something new. mining 4TW... But i don't mind a cheaper implants. in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much? [-á-¦-¦-Ç-â-é-+-+-¦] -£-¦-¦-+-+-+-¦ -¦-+-Ç-+-+-Ç-¦-å-+-Å Transtellar |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
231
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Posted - 2013.04.30 04:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I love my marauders, but somewhere along the line looting/salvaging became a worthless activity. Having 425mm railguns drop in my loot was pretty sweet, it just made mining a worthless profession. Throw in Small/medium rigs and a bunch of salvage value was gone. With the Notcis more people could loot and salvage faster. Add in the inventory changes and looting/salvaging is just a pain in the ass and I won't do it at all (although I pretty much stopped doing that before the inventory changes, I really can't remember if the inventory changes specifically made looting worse, but with a max skilled + implants marauder running enemies abound is a complete annoyance due to the looting. I love killing gallente and I love the value of the tags, but damn looting is annoying. The open wreck button is often not responsive, and half the time it sends me off flying into space). Also the pirate battleships do more dps. more dps = faster missions (which is the important thing)! also in the case of the Mach ZOMG FAST!
I guess the long range tractor is nice in a few missions where you have to loot a can at the end, but hey, most of the pirate bs have a utility high for a tractor beam anyways.
Golem: with cruise the CNR outperforms it, and torps are annoying (limited range, ammo swapping, and managing multiple target painters) Paladin: I love this ship! but the Nightmare does more dps and has more tracking. Will be interesting to see what a sentry + cruise geddon can do. Vargur: Mach just does it better. zoom zoom and dps. I guess it has nice shield resists and that boost bonus is sexy, but most of the time I don't even find myself using a shield booster. Kronos: Vindi does more dps, domi does more dps. although domi fits are mostly just annoying and I'd rather fly a kronos most of the time as it is rather easy to use. Railguns have very nice range, but lower damage. where blasters just don't have the range for most missions. |
Sarmatiko
1063
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Posted - 2013.04.30 04:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
DSpite Culhach wrote:* Everytime someone asks "What ship for L4's should I get", it's always Tengu, Machariel, or a particular Pirate ship with unusual bonuses/advantages vs specific NPC's. Vargur is the only Marauder that sometimes pops up, mostly because it's insta-hit, long range guns, and easier to manage. It's not because Marauders are bad, it's because beforementioned ships are too good. No need to worry about that - long awaited nerfs will probably happen soon (TE nerf for Machariel is just the beginning, and wont affect Vargur btw). Also pirate ships should be better (and they are better!) than T2 for extra price.
Personally I dont have any problems with Vargur, Kronos and Paladin - they work against their typical NPC enemies just excellent. Just need to do something with outdated tractor bonus.
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SB Rico
the united Negative Ten.
176
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Posted - 2013.04.30 04:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
My personal dislike of marauders is based on the fact pirate bs are just better.
DPS on average similar on both classes EHP (anti gank) Pirate BS better
But to me the most important bit
Sensor strength and scan res... er well this is no contest. Like I would use a marauder against serpentis/guristas rats. Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.
Killing me should be for free. |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1461
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'm not sure if Marauders need a stat buff, but I do think they need a change of role bonus.
Getting rid of the salvaging and tractor thing would be a good start, but I don't know what to replace it with. Ch+½j+ì Katrina Oniseki ~ (RDC) Chief Operations Officer ~ [I-RED] Sub-Director of Public Relations |
Your Royal Highness
Mohawk Campers
11
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Posted - 2013.04.30 11:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marauders are just fine as they are... leave them alone.
Tractor bonus, the available hi-slots for salvaging and the bigger cargo hold still add up to a good, all-round solo mission boat. |
Gul Amarr
Orange County Cruisers
8
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Posted - 2013.04.30 11:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Marauders date from a a time before before faction BS were buffed and came heavily pre-nerfed so noone would ever use them in PVP. Everything around them got buffed, the Noctis was introduced, so yes, they look rather poor nowadays.
I wouldn't say the need much work - just the tractor bonus replaced with something useful. However, I'd rather wait and rebelance them based on experiences with the new T1 BS. |
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Reppyk
Yarrbear Inc. BricK sQuAD.
405
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Posted - 2013.04.30 11:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
From a PVP side :
The vargur is fine (but the weak sensors), definitively the best marauder to destroy ships. Basically a slow machariel but with a better tank and tracking. The pwg is a bit low but still manageable if you get d425s/650mm guns. The kronos isn't bad, but the vindicator does it better.
Now the 2 horrible carebears boats... Paladin's bonus don't make sense at all. Web strength bonus ? What an oddity. Large laser weapons (pulse and lolbeams) aren't made to fight in close range. Capacitor bonus ? One of the weakest hull bonus. The pwg is extremely low and makes it impossible to fit some lasers, a neut, a smart bomb, a cap booster and a tank (and I'm not even speaking of a prop... anyway you don't have the mids for that). The golem is a bad battleship that is not even good at PVEing. The DPS is not even good, the cpu/pwg is so tight you can't use at all the 3 spare highslots, and a navy scorp is just better at it. I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. -áI AM A LOWSEC GANKER, HIGHSEC SCUM, NULLSEC BASTARD, WORMHOLE INVADER. Welcome to, welcome to, welcome to my scramble. GÖÑ |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
1160
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 11:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
i can understand the sentiment OP and i do love my paladin even tho a abbadon could do the pve missions i do with it aswell
i have started to treat them as a status sympbol after a succesfull PVE carreer you can compare them you driving a porshe while all others are driving a volkswagen
do they need a buff ...no idea what kind of buff i can think of they do exactly what a pve ship is suppose to do PVE and they do it better and faster than any other pve fitted ship , with the exceptions of machariels and vindicators maybe I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Vilnius Zar
Ordo Ardish
854
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Posted - 2013.04.30 12:03:00 -
[13] - Quote
The problem Marauders have in PVE is overpowered (pirate) faction ships which will get addressed fairly soon. Asking them to be more viable in PVP is probably a can of worms you really don't want to open imo, because something that sounds cool to solo with also means it'll crush any fleet when used by dozens/hundreds of people. We seriously need LESS super amazing ships, not more.
Some of them could use some tweaking that's for sure but I wouldn't remove the sensor strength issue, that'll just go wrong. Amat victoria curam. Excellence in everything.
Some guides that may be useful to you: http://www.youtube.com/user/OrdoArdish |
baltec1
Bat Country
6159
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Posted - 2013.04.30 12:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
If not for the weakness vs ECM I would use them in PVP. They still make a fair ship for PVE |
Stegas Tyrano
GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy
396
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Posted - 2013.04.30 12:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Are they any good in Wormhole space? Herping your derp since 19Potato --á[Proposal] - Ingame Visual Adverts |
ACE McFACE
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve
1241
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 12:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
That sensor strength is pretty bad considering most people have ECM drones if they have space after a flight of light drones. You should be notified if someone quotes your post so you can continue the argument! |
Pepper Solette
University of Caille Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2013.04.30 12:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
MrDiao wrote:Macherial and Vindicator are expensive as well, but many people use them to pvp still.
The problem on marauder is that the price does not agree with the performance (in pvp) , not the price itself.
I completely agree with this. But for pure awesomesauce, dps and tank, you can't got past the Vidicator. Yes, your painting a huge target on yourself, but wow. What a nice ship for pvp if you have the wallet to stomach it.
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
246
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Posted - 2013.04.30 21:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
Moved to Features & Ideas Discussion. ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1034
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 21:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Give them t2 resists. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Enya Sparhawk
State Protectorate Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2013.04.30 22:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221342
At least nine pages of similar thoughts and/or similar thinking people... F+¡orghr+í: Gr+í na f+¡rinne D+¬an g+íire...Tiocfaidh +ír l+í |
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Jureth22
Mind Games. Suddenly Spaceships.
65
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Posted - 2013.04.30 22:26:00 -
[21] - Quote
to be honest i cant say i ever seen marauders used in pvp except in tournaments.like ever. |
Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
78
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Posted - 2013.05.01 15:27:00 -
[22] - Quote
we have this discussion all the time. search features and ideas forums.
they have several problems.. they are all supposed to use 1/2 the ammo which is great for missions because you run through it so quickly. well, the paladin doesnt get this bonus. normal amarr bs get the 10% cap savings which at bs 5 means you pay 1/2 cap for each laser. the paladin uses 4 at full cap=same cap to shoot 8 normal vs 4 "enhanced" the paladin size? 500m? why? its an apoc. sensor str? silly.
they were created in a time when everything was weak. then things grew up around them. they had good damage potential, but everything else about them came nerfed form the factor.
they need a role changed, because the noctic just completely over shadows them.
weve talked about making them exploration bs with bonuses to scanning and other stuff. weve chatted about turning them into hac bs's just like their cruiser counter parts (and possibly their bc counter parts now that rise and fozzie mentioned they will be dishing it out as well as giving bonuses). we talked about doing all sorts of things.
they were intensionally nerfed to "not be OP" and then everything else grew up around them. i dont think they need more fire power, just get rid of the tractor beam bonus and give it something usefull. the web bonus on the paladin doesnt work like it is very well. it could use the tracking bonus like the nightmare or something else.
they require more training than typical bs, i dont know who it was that said that, but the skills behind a marauder (not including the bs 5 mandantory) and marauder to 1 plus all the other skills is more intensive than level 1 pirate bs. marauder alone is a 10x skill in which one MUST have bs 5 to fly. you dont need that for pirate. you could have rank 4 (8x) in 2 races in 16 days and the pirate bs function REALLY well where as for rank 1 marauder, u need to spend 28 days for bs 5 JUST to get in it.
they need a new role. are they exploration? give em exploration bonuses. are they pve (honestly, i dont see them fulfilling this role much longer)? make em so the can have the proper fittings. are they the new long awaited, t2 combat ships since we have all these new powerful pirate ships out there? hopefully...and if so, they need sensor strength, proper resists, proper PG and cpu/cap...they need to become the beasts they should have been.
the pve role...ccp stated they want to give us the tools, but dont want to tell us how to use them, so how can they honestly tell us how to use the marauder? its a ship..if i wanna setup a smartbomb gate camp and catch gate rats, its my buiz.
if i wanna use it to mine with miner II's like we did in the old days, its my buiz...how can they tell me i MUST use it for pve? that goes against their own words...
wait till the ship rebalance is out. we will see... |
DSpite Culhach
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
104
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Posted - 2013.05.02 10:34:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:DSpite Culhach wrote:* Everytime someone asks "What ship for L4's should I get", it's always Tengu, Machariel, or a particular Pirate ship with unusual bonuses/advantages vs specific NPC's. Vargur is the only Marauder that sometimes pops up, mostly because it's insta-hit, long range guns, and easier to manage. It's not because Marauders are bad, it's because beforementioned ships are too good. No need to worry about that - long awaited nerfs will probably happen soon (TE nerf for Machariel is just the beginning, and wont affect Vargur btw). Also pirate ships should be better (and they are better!) than T2 for extra price. Personally I dont have any problems with Vargur, Kronos and Paladin - they work against their typical NPC enemies just excellent. Just need to do something with outdated tractor bonus. DSpite Culhach wrote: * They have massive skilling times. A "careful noob" would just do L3's in a Drake, and get into an impossible to kill, omni-tanked Rattlesnake with Sentries. Both of these options are "cheap", lower skill, and even though a mission may take longer to complete, it's far easier on the nerves - and the wallet - when a screw up happens.
Sorry but you have no idea at all. To get your " impossible to kill" Rattlesnake "with sentries" you need to train your Caldari/Gallente BS to 5 first. You need to get all relevant support skills and senry drone skills to perfect state, otherwise even MJD Dominix will outplay your poor baby Rattlesnake. Same goes to Machariel - good luck flying it without Gallente BS 5 after TE nerf. You actually need more skills to fly pirate ships effectively, than you need to fly Marauders.
Well, actually I do have "an idea" because I started a dedicated mission toon, and went Drake -> Raven -> CNR -> Rattkesnake.
On Rattlesnake I initially only maxed Sentries and light Drones, tested on SiSi, and been running Caldari/Gallente BS on 4/3 and not "5/5" and on paper It's pushing out 650 DPS from Sentries with 3x DDA's before Cruise Missiles are factored in, and either a 600+ Omnitank or a NPC focused 900+ tank, all on 15 million SP, and that's on top of me doing all the /frigs/BC/Dessi that needed to be done before the June "patch", and going from ship to ship as my money went up so I could afford the hulls.
After 8pm here in Australia my connection usually goes to hell, probably because load at the ISP goes up, and the Rattlesnake is a LOT Safer then a MJD Dominix with paper thinned tank to maximise Sentry damage. Thanks, I'll keep the RS as on all V's I could still 600+ Omnitank and push out 800+ DPS which is plenty for missions. I suddenly woke up thinking I had a nightmare, then remembered I can't even fly Amarr Battleships. I add bits to this when I'm bored https://www.dropbox.com/s/foijsawsqolarom/EVE_Online.html |
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