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Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance
97
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:02:00 -
[31] - Quote
+1 on anything that gets me into a carebears mission pockets faster, to enjoy their cuddly softness http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca |
Domer Pyle
Northern Flemish Bastards Inc Yulai Federation
38
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:05:00 -
[32] - Quote
i hate probing in its current form. way too tedious for me to bother. the new system sounds delightful. i might even train exploration skills! |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
1728
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:08:00 -
[33] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:Because tediousness requires smarts. +1 eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Eurydia Vespasian
Nova Insula Mining and Industrial
2485
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Eurydia Vespasian wrote:i kind of liked it being tedious. it helped ensure that not everyone in the game would be out there probing because they felt it was boring or they were impatient on that level. which translated into less competition for sites. You could just shoot your competition, you know?
i could. in low and below. but say i'm in highsec looking for low sec ore grav sites (which just any scrub will be able to find before long as well) or combat sites or w/e...it seems bad for business to trade a strategic cruiser to concord for an imicus or magnate killmail lol
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Anton Menges Saddat
EXPCS Corp SpaceMonkey's Alliance
16
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Yeah, because we all like using a probing system that is tedious as f*** when we all know we're going to put them in the same pattern anyways |
Andrea Griffin
400
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:22:00 -
[36] - Quote
Kids these days don't know how good they have it.
When I was your age, probes didn't warp. If we wanted them to be somewhere, we had to warp there first and eject the probe out of our ship.
I'm not joking CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
146
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
I am actually all for the probe formations and new deployment system. There are other issues with the new probing system that need work but this is not be one of them. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
634
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Points 1 and 2 might count, but don't affect anything that requires GÇ£smartsGÇ¥ anyway so it's hardly dumbing anything down. Points 3 and 4 are already in the game and are just usability tweaks.
So I don't quite see where the dumbing down is. In fact, if anything, thees changes makes advanced probing a bit more cumbersome, which would rather suggesting that it's smarenting things up alongside the UI improvements.
Dumbing down is defined as a subjective term. Put that in your swag bah and hipster it. From: Tommas De'Wins To: Cipher Jones Dude :) I got massives Basi hahahahahahaha |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14142
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Dumbing down is defined as a subjective term. Where and by whom?
But yes, that's kind of my point GÇö you'd have to be pretty dumb (or, hopefully, just ignorant of the mechanics) to think that the trivial matters covered by these UI tweaks in any way represents some kind of GÇ£difficultyGÇ¥ or GÇ£matter of smarts/skillGÇ¥ that's being removed.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
634
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Give feedback, good feedback, not tears. R Tape loading error |
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Gillia Winddancer
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
349
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Posted - 2013.05.09 18:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Anything that combats RSI in any way, shape or form is a good thing. The inability to understand the most basic of basics in user friendliness hardly earns you any cookies. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
371
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:18:00 -
[42] - Quote
Most of it is tedium. The skill bonus for Astrometrics now sounds like a waste but the other skills will still offer bonuses that make you better at it. There may be less need to have those skills when doing introduction level scanning, ie. High Sec anoms but it isn't to say they won't be useful in other scanning activity. R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
292
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:44:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ioci wrote:The skill bonus for Astrometrics now sounds like a waste but the other skills will still offer bonuses that make you better at it. What? The skill bonus for astro has been boosted immensely and the other skills reduced. Please at least know what your talking about before commenting.
As for dumbing down, I wouldn't say the preset formations dumbs things down, but its the lack of variation now with the removal of 8 probes and the DSP which is causing things to feel dumbed down.
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Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
442
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:Anything that combats RSI in any way, shape or form is a good thing. The inability to understand the most basic of basics in user friendliness hardly earns you any cookies.
Came here to say this basicly. |
Marianne Pollard
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
NARDAC wrote:
I'm very annoyed that everyone will be stealing my sites now.
Fixed.
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rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
83
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Don't care about it being "easier", but the removal of features and blatant UI issues over the current system are what bothers me most.
Plenty of posts in the test forum about it to be fair, so I won't reiterate them here. Hopefully they get tweaked / fixed.
Can't believe they are seriously considering removing the list view of results though. |
PotatoOverdose
SONS of LEGION RISE of LEGION
126
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:55:00 -
[47] - Quote
All they did was remove the initial 7 probe launch and drags. And they flipped the controls for clicking and shift-clicking.
If that's what you refer to as skill.....well..... |
blink alt
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
29
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
Of all of the complaints in the original post I wonder why you do not mention a much bigger problem. All your complaints are trivial and yet you do not complain about the 8th probe being removed. That makes me question how much scanning you really do! |
Rebecha Pucontis
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
293
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:00:00 -
[49] - Quote
PotatoOverdose wrote:All they did was remove the initial 7 probe launch and drags. And they flipped the controls for clicking and shift-clicking. Nope, they did a lot more than that. Try checking it out on singularity. |
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
1655
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Dumbed down probing is what aliens do to abductees from Arkansas.
What CCP did was listen and improve the probing experience. Disagree.
It appears they've removed most of the skill from probling, which is only an invite to the plebs of HS to come disturbing us in W-Space. Living in W-Space has been a challenge - it has required a fair degree of dedication and skill. It appears that it will become much less unfriendly to boneheads, and that makes me sad.
Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.
Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc |
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Julius Priscus
103
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
for those that think scanning is or is going to be even more tedious after the next expansion??
you all should of been around with the old scanning mechanic. |
rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
85
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:for those that think scanning is or is going to be even more tedious after the next expansion??
you all should of been around with the old scanning mechanic.
It was kinda cute and had its own charm. Yeah, making bookmarks to drop probes in the right place was time consuming....and the scan time was crazy looking back on it......but it worked for its purpose back then.
Some of the current changes are taking the pretty good system we have now and are stripping features away. I don't know any proper who actually cares about the "easier" bit apart from the usual EVE IS DIEING crowd, but to remove features for a system that works? I'm not sold....because I've spent almost 5 hours playing with it. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
371
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:55:00 -
[53] - Quote
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:Ioci wrote:The skill bonus for Astrometrics now sounds like a waste but the other skills will still offer bonuses that make you better at it. What? The skill bonus for astro has been boosted immensely and the other skills reduced. Please at least know what your talking about before commenting. As for dumbing down, I wouldn't say the preset formations dumbs things down, but its the lack of variation now with the removal of 8 probes and the DSP which is causing things to feel dumbed down.
You default to 7 probes. How many probes do you think you need out? Acquisition still gives 10% per level to scan time. 10% of 5 seconds, 10% of 15 seconds is still 10%.
Please at least look at the scanning process before you start throwing elitist replies at discussions. R.I.P. Vile Rat |
Inna Cristiana
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2013.05.09 20:58:00 -
[54] - Quote
Exploration was boring, tedious and anti-fun.
Now with odyssey it should be something to consider training into.
I see no problem here. |
Zyrbalax III
Core World Imperium
81
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Posted - 2013.05.09 21:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
Tippia wrote:NARDAC wrote:Moving the probes into a pattern, resizing that pattern. That was the most important, player-skill based part of probing, and it has been removed. Setting up the pattern took no real time or skill to begin with; resizing it was a two-click-drag affair. If you want something other than the pre-set pattern for some more advanced (which you often do), you have to move stuff around more now than ever before. In fact, one of the main complaints I've seen about this change is that it doesn't dumb down things: people will still have to drag probes around to form their favorite, task-specific search patterns. All this auto-formation does is dump a ton of probes into space under the assumption that you're looking to scan down a single signatureGǪ which isn't necessarily true. It sound more and more like you aren't entirely familiar with the shortcuts available in the current systems, tbh.
Having just read the (growing) threadnaught about the scanning changes in the test server feedback forum, I think there's more being lost than perhaps you recognise. Currently there's a lot of "advanced scanning techniques" being used (especially in wormholes) which will be pretty much made impossible by the Odyssey changes as they currently stand on Sisi. Examples (and I'm sure this isn't an exhaustive list):
Removal of Deep Space Probes - removes one option for mixed probe scanning techniques, removes the only probe capable of scanning a complete system
Must launch 7 probes, can't launch 8 - makes it impossible to scan 2 sites at the same time with 4 probes on each
Probes return to hold on leaving system - removes the option to jump out of system then back in and reconnect to probes already in system
I'm sure there are others. I'm sure I haven't explained those particularly well. And I'm sure MOST players don't use those techniques anyway.
But some folks do use them and find them very valuable in giving an edge to what they do. And those edges look like they're being removed, which to me looks at least like "levelling down the playing field", which in EVE just doesn't feel right.
Who knows, players may find new and unforeseen "advanced techniques" to use with the new system. But at the moment, there are concerns from a lot of dedicated scanners/explorers which I hope CCP will take the time to at least look into.
What concerns me most is Twostep's comments that the CSM had no idea about many of the scanning changes - i.e. CCP didn't consult the people who know the game because they play it every day. Which sounds disturbingly like a return to Incarna behaviour, if on a (hopefully) smaller scale. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
457
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Posted - 2013.05.09 21:07:00 -
[56] - Quote
Stockholme syndrome is so damned bizzare. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
2732
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Posted - 2013.05.09 21:24:00 -
[57] - Quote
Currently a few people are amazing scanners, rest are mediocre and terrible.
Come Odyssey, everyone's mediocre.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Julius Rigel
72
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Posted - 2013.05.09 22:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:But some folks do use them and find them very valuable in giving an edge to what they do. And those edges look like they're being removed, which to me looks at least like "levelling down the playing field", which in EVE just doesn't feel right. The problem isn't even whether or not an incidental (emergent) mechanism is being used, the problem (at least in my opinion) is that the whole point of EVE is to be a sandbox, and what makes a sandbox game a sandbox game is having tools that do things, as opposed to having things that can be accessed through specific tools.
To explain that statement, take this comparison as an example:
In EVE a very essential tool is the ship. This thing is an object in the outside game environment - you can sit inside it and access its array of modules and functions such as warping, sub-warp engines, targeting, etc.. But you can also dock it in a station and trade it with other players, through the market, through a trade window, through contracts; while the ship is in a station, it's sort of just like a commodity.
Then you undock again and eject from your ship. Now that same thing isn't your player character or some item in your inventory, it's just a thing, floating freely in space under its own inertia (and eventually slowed down by the space jello that puts friction on everything and keeps everything facing the right way up, but that's beside the point).
So a ship in EVE has a purpose - it functions as your class and your equipment, and mostly everything else that defines your player character, but it is also an independent object that has generic properties which can be interacted with freely within the physicaly rules of the game world. It's a tool, just like a hammer is a tool, and you can use a hammer to insert a nail in a plank of wood, or pull it back out if it has a forked side, or your can plant the hammer in the side of a section of drywall and it will make a hole. Only physics decides what a hammer can and cannot do, even though it's manufactured for a purpose.
On the other hand, take a different MMORPG, any MMORPG, just imagine your standard, generic, class-based fantasy MMO.
In this type of MMO, you might have an item that functions similarly to ship in EVE in some respects, for example a horse. You have the horse in some tab of your character sheet as a little icon, and when you click on it, your player character's model changes to your player character on top of a horse, and it alters your movement speed. This serves a specific function; the horse mechanism is there to make you go faster. But beyond that, the horse has no function, no purpose, no existence. You can't get off the horse and leave it somewhere in the game world. You can't give the horse to another player, you can't sell the horse (in most cases, some MMOs do allow you to trade your mounts on the auction house or whatever, but mostly they're just bound to your player character as a "skill"). The horse is not a tool, it does not have any properties that you can interact with, it's just a button that you click to achieve a specific effect.
This is, in my opinion, what makes a sandbox game a sandbox game.
Probes used to be a tool - they had the property of being physical objects in space, which made them subject to the rules of physics in EVE, such as you can scoop them if you have a large enough cargohold, you can bring them back to station, etc.. They also had properties such as "no engines", which made them subjects to another rule of the physics of the universe, namely they couldn't move. If you wanted a probe in a certain spot, you had to physically go there and kick the probe out of your cargohold, and it would stay there.
More interestingly, the "probe" tool had some properties that made it a very interesting tool in the context of a sandbox game: They could generate coordinates (in the form of a bookmark-like point on your star map) that were more or less close to other objects in space. The important thing here is that this property was not a feature locked into doing a specific thing. Launching a probe wasn't synonymous with looking for a grav site. It just meant launching a probe. You COULD use it to probe out a specific ship, or a drone, or some other object, but you could also use the probe's functionality to do other things - emergent gameplay. In practice, one of those things was generating an extremely inaccurate ping on yourself, which would give you a warpable set of coordinates (little bookmarky thing) somewhere in the solar system very far away. This could be used to make safespots that were immediately guaranteed to not be directly between any two celestial objects where ships would warp, and even could be outside the warpable boundary between the outer-most celestials in a solar system.
Anyway, my point is simply that I play EVE because it's a sandbox game, and that means having tools that have general generic functions, not specific results. A knife can cut bread, the same knife can butter the bread, or poke your eye out, or pin a piece of paper to a tree. That is EVE to me. Do YOU like to undock? |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
749
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Posted - 2013.05.09 23:08:00 -
[59] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
^^This^^ and Tippi's posts are about the only things worth reading tin this thread. The OP really should feel ashamed of itself :/ Meta-gaming for carebears:
Whine on the forums like a little ***** until CCP gets sick of you and hands you everything you ask for just to shut you up. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
662
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Posted - 2013.05.09 23:42:00 -
[60] - Quote
Zyrbalax III wrote:Removal of Deep Space Probes - removes one option for mixed probe scanning techniques, removes the only probe capable of scanning a complete system While I can agree with the subsequent 2 issues you listed, can't the scanner overlay now take the place of DSP's?
CCP Fozzie wrote:You'll need to drop probes and start scanning to get the signature type, the results in the sensor overlay work much like the results from a single deep space probe. |
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