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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
181
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 16:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Heck with it... I'm just giving this it's own thread. Tired of having to repost it in every moronic "nerf afk cloak" thread that pops up seven times a freakin' hour.
Even though cloaking isn't broken and is working as intended, I once again offer this change to the system for consideration:
1. When a vessel cloaks, it gets removed from local. You cannot see the cloaked vessel (or pilot) anymore, after all, they're cloaked.
2. When a vessel cloaks, it also loses access to local. They can't see you... you can't see them. If you want to gather intel while cloaked, do it actively through use of dscan, probes, or simply going somewhere and watching. (This is a tried and tested methodology in wormholes that works just fine.)
3. When a vessel uncloaks, there's a delay in being able to fire off a cyno of approx 15 to 30 seconds, depending on balancing. This prevents abuse of the hot drop mechanic by allowing the aware an opportunity to act on the fact that there's a vessel uncloaking nearby.
Exception to #3 to consider: I'd consider allowing Black Ops ships to not suffer the delay in firing a cyno. They're a special class of ship that should have this ability.
So, what do we gain from this (especially that the "nerf cloak" crowd fails to provide)?
Cloaks are allowed to act more like true cloaks. Intel gathering while cloaked becomes a more active affair. The overpowered intel tool called local remains effective for ships not cloaked. Cynos and hot drops are balanced to prevent abuse, but they should still be effective. Black Ops ships find a greater role. Null sec still retains the element of danger it deserves instead of being turned into Eve: Asteroid Adventure. Important to me: Wormholes don't take any hits due to cloaking mechanics being broken.
So there it is... what appears to be a well balanced tweak to cloaking and null space that should add a good bit to the game (instead of taking away from it). Cloaks, and covops especially, are allowed to truly function covertly in empire space adding a new twist to intel gathering.
And, most importantly, THERE WILL BE NO MORE "AFK CLOAKER" THREADS! Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
28
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:55:00 -
[2] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Ultimate answer
I can get behind this.
And we might not get more "AFK CLOAKER" threads
We might get "OMG I WANT OLD LOCAL BACK" threads though |
Satav
Latinum Exports
66
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 17:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
______________________________________________________________________________________
"Your Erebus is docked? How did that happen?" "It took a lot of pushing and grease....." |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
183
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
263
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:19:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love.
Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
184
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love. Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.
I'm not familiar with recons as of yet... if it makes sense to do so then by all means, this is an idea in progress, not something I'd consider set in stone. As a matter of fact, I'll modify it now... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Feligast
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
263
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 18:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Feligast wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love. Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here. I'm not familiar with recons as of yet... if it makes sense to do so then by all means, this is an idea in progress, not something I'd consider set in stone. As a matter of fact, I'll modify it now...
The entire point of recon ships is to penetrate deep behind enemy lines, throw up covert cynos or short-term regular cynos (most get a role bonus 10% reduction in cyno duration) and slip into the night. Recons are often paired with Black Ops battleships as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense. |
Ardamalis
Vanguard Corp Bounty Hunters
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Confirming that the ultimate questions of Life, the Universe, and Cloaking have just been answered inside this thread.
+1
This idea needs to stay on top. |
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
12
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Posted - 2011.10.19 19:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
I think it sounds fun, and balanced, and simple. And unlike a lot of game mechanics it actually sounds logic, which is just an added bonus.
I can imagine some submarine slang to evolve from a mechanic like this:
- Going active - turning off cloak to see who is in local. - Going passive, silent running - turning on the cloak, losing some speed and awareness in the process. - One ping - quickly uncloack and decloack to get a quick reading.
Is there any way to add the number 42 to this?
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
186
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 19:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Sarina Berghil wrote: Is there any way to add the number 42 to this?
Done. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
30
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Posted - 2011.10.19 20:06:00 -
[11] - Quote
I came here ready to roll my eyes at another cloaking thread, but the title caught my eye and gave me a chuckle (I love HHGttG). I have to say though, this is one of the better suggestions I've seen on the matter.
At first glance atleast, this appears to solve pretty much all of the significant issues with cloaking. It doesn't change the fact that there's still someone there, but it lets you know when they're actually doing anything and when they're not.
One concern I have is that Stealth Bombers, with their instant locking, might be somewhat OP after this, if they enter your system when you're offline, you could be pointed before there's any indication at all of a hostile in the system. Yes, it's something WHers deal with every day, but there is a large difference between constantly changing WHs and static gates. I'm not sure how large a concern this is, but it's something I thought I'd point out. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
82
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Heck with it... I'm just giving this it's own thread. Tired of having to repost it in every moronic "nerf afk cloak" thread that pops up seven times a freakin' hour. Even though cloaking isn't broken and is working as intended, I once again offer this change to the system for consideration: 1. When a vessel cloaks, it gets removed from local. You cannot see the cloaked vessel (or pilot) anymore, after all, they're cloaked. 2. When a vessel cloaks, it also loses access to local. They can't see you... you can't see them. If you want to gather intel while cloaked, do it actively through use of dscan, probes, or simply going somewhere and watching. (This is a tried and tested methodology in wormholes that works just fine.) 3. When a vessel uncloaks, there's a delay in being able to fire off a cyno of approx 15 to 30 seconds (possibly 42), depending on balancing. This prevents abuse of the hot drop mechanic by allowing the aware an opportunity to act on the fact that there's a vessel uncloaking nearby. Exception to #3 to consider: I'd consider allowing Black Ops (and possibly Recon) ships to not suffer the delay in firing a cyno. They're a special class of ship that should have this ability. So, what do we gain from this (especially that the "nerf cloak" crowd fails to provide)? Cloaks are allowed to act more like true cloaks. Intel gathering while cloaked becomes a more active affair. The overpowered intel tool called local remains effective for ships not cloaked. Cynos and hot drops are balanced to prevent abuse, but they should still be effective. Black Ops ships find a greater role. Null sec still retains the element of danger it deserves instead of being turned into Eve: Asteroid Adventure. Important to me: Wormholes don't take any hits due to cloaking mechanics being broken. So there it is... what appears to be a well balanced tweak to cloaking and null space that should add a good bit to the game (instead of taking away from it). Cloaks, and covops especially, are allowed to truly function covertly in empire space adding a new twist to intel gathering. And, most importantly, THERE WILL BE NO MORE "AFK CLOAKER" THREADS!
You sir win an internets serious business award. +1 |
tankus2
Endless Destruction Imperial Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 20:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
before I even read the opening post, I approved of this thread for its level of class. Reading the OP, however, has only served to strengthen my stance that this should be put into effect ASAP. Way too much afk-cloak-faggotry out there Where the science gets done |
Jax Slizard
Uber Unlimited Ltd.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 21:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Sounds better than practically every other suggestion.
How about just allowing anything that can fit covert ops cloak to instant cyno, while regular cloaks have a delay? (And give blops a covops cloak...) |
Svenjabi Xiang
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 22:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Forums ate the longer post.
Like points 1 and 2.
Adjust recalibration delay on covops line (adding covops cloak to BLOPs) using the cloaking skill and the role bonuses to nothing and I'll go with a cyno delay equal to roughly 6 seconds. It's difficult enough setting up drops to catch the normal targets and intelligent sub-caps will evade drops at 6 seconds. Supercap ratters? No mercy. |
Mitherien
E.A.D Alliance Omega Vector
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.19 23:00:00 -
[16] - Quote
+1 and bump for a good idea. |
Goose99
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 01:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Feligast wrote:Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here. I'm not familiar with recons as of yet... if it makes sense to do so then by all means, this is an idea in progress, not something I'd consider set in stone. As a matter of fact, I'll modify it now... The entire point of recon ships is to penetrate deep behind enemy lines, throw up covert cynos or short-term regular cynos (most get a role bonus 10% reduction in cyno duration per level) and slip into the night.
That description is the intended function of black ops, not recons. Once Recons, one of the most popular ship type out there, is given the same ability, there will be no reason to fly the black ops, the least popular ship type. The advantage should be given to black ops and covert cyno only.
Quote:Recons are often paired with Black Ops battleships as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense. ________ are often paired with Black Ops battleships as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense. Recons are often paired with _________ as the cyno end, so imo it would make perfect sense.
Fill the blank with anything. Black Ops are so rare, and Recons so numerous, when you see a Black Ops, there's probably a Recon in fleet, among other things. When you see any fleet, there's probably a Recon in it. |
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 03:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm fine with all this.. though I confess the cyno nerf scares me abit.. it's possible to over do this nerf a little.. though good call on the black ops and recon exception. [IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/OldST.jpg[/IMG] |
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Free bump with content.
I think the recons can get no time delay to fire covert cyno's, with original delay to normal cyno's.
Black Ops could get no delay on covert and normal cyno.
Thoughts? |
Shingorash
No.Mercy Merciless.
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:36:00 -
[20] - Quote
Feligast wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love. Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here.
T3's should be able to do it as well, there should be a delay on all other ships. |
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
208
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 11:53:00 -
[21] - Quote
Shingorash wrote:Feligast wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Satav wrote:hmm,
I like it.
Except for the cyno-delay. No one would be able bring in caps/supers efficiently anymore. But good idea on the disappearing from local.
+1
Hence the exception for Black Ops however. They need the love. Add recons to the no spool-up list and you might have me here. T3's should be able to do it as well, there should be a delay on all other ships.
There's the potential for abuse... someone being able to fire off cynos while completely "off the radar" can potentially be a bit imbalanced, hence the restrictions. There should be some specialty ships with the ability, but I don't think simple T3s should be on that list personally, at least not without having, for example, a special subsystem giving that ability at the expense of something else. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
66
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
So everytime you engage some ship you will likely have huge blob sitting there cloaked right next to it?
Whats the solution? Have your own cloaked blob because they won't see you either.
It sounds like fun, if and only if, you like bait and blob tactics.
But they aren't my thing so I don't like it.
As has been mentioned in thread after thread. Removing local (or removing it for everyone who can fit a cloak which isn't hard to do) will just help those who want to blob. EVE does not really need a mechanic to help blobbing. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
208
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Cearain wrote:So everytime you engage some ship you will likely have huge blob sitting there cloaked right next to it? Whats the solution? Have your own cloaked blob because they won't see you either. It sounds like fun, if and only if, you like bait and blob tactics. But they aren't my thing so I don't like it. As has been mentioned in thread after thread. Removing local (or removing it for everyone who can fit a cloak which isn't hard to do) will just help those who want to blob. EVE does not really need a mechanic to help blobbing.
Wow, you didn't bother thinking that through at all, did you?
The cloaked blob v. blob thing fails simply because you can't simply cloak every ship and form a blob. Only covops can target right when decloaking or even warp while cloaked. At best you may see more smaller skirmishes between covops equipped vessels, T3, etc. but certainly no massive cloaked blobs sitting around. Simply having a cloak equipped wouldn't remove you from local, only actually having the cloak active. This greatly restricts the threat from most ships. Only the specialized few would be able to attempt the hot drop. If you're alert and/or prepared, you can avoid it. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Mr Painless
Temnava Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 13:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
I fully support the idea.
One little addition: when a ship jumps in system, there should be a delay (session change time?) during which a ship won't appear in local anyway. This is to give time for ships to recloak after entering system without appearing momentarily in local. If this is not implemented then I'm afraid it will be enough for bots to react an scurry back to safety.
And yes, I hate botting very much - it's killing this game in a subtle, but definite way. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
210
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Mr Painless wrote:I fully support the idea.
One little addition: when a ship jumps in system, there should be a delay (session change time?) during which a ship won't appear in local anyway. This is to give time for ships to recloak after entering system without appearing momentarily in local. If this is not implemented then I'm afraid it will be enough for bots to react an scurry back to safety.
And yes, I hate botting very much - it's killing this game in a subtle, but definite way.
I'd thought of that... I think there should be that little blink where you appear personally. Give the aware a chance to recognize that something just may be amiss. The bots, let them dock and undock an hour later thinking it's all warm and fuzzy. Gives you plenty of time to set up bot-traps if you wish. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 14:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Mr Painless wrote:I fully support the idea.
One little addition: when a ship jumps in system, there should be a delay (session change time?) during which a ship won't appear in local anyway. This is to give time for ships to recloak after entering system without appearing momentarily in local. If this is not implemented then I'm afraid it will be enough for bots to react an scurry back to safety.
And yes, I hate botting very much - it's killing this game in a subtle, but definite way. I'd thought of that... I think there should be that little blink where you appear personally. Give the aware a chance to recognize that something just may be amiss. The bots, let them dock and undock an hour later thinking it's all warm and fuzzy. Gives you plenty of time to set up bot-traps if you wish.
This is my preferred method. I think the easiest way to accomplish this would be to just have gate cloak not keep you out of Local, only onboard cloaks can cut you off from Local. It really shouldn't be possible to just fill up the system with absolutely no warning, it works for WHs because they move around, but k-space doesn't move around, so it's MUCH easier to target a specific system and bring in people to attack. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
85
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 16:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
This idea is nearly perfect,
It accounts for cloaker omg spam abuse. It accounts for allowing cloaker fleets to attack the bots It allow for MORE smaller combat to happen It probably will help cut some larger allaicnes down in control size as they'll need more folks to defend from raiders. All covert ships are going to sell like hotcakes as a combat option. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
199
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
its a good idea.
however the problem with this suggestion is that its in fact a workaround for something which has its root cause is the local chat used as intel tool. In long term a real intel tool like a radar or a improved/useable dscan (useable for humans not only for bots) would be of course the better fix...
You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
216
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 17:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:its a good idea.
however the problem with this suggestion is that its in fact a workaround for something which has its root cause is the local chat used as intel tool. In long term a real intel tool like a radar or a improved/useable dscan (useable for humans not only for bots) would be of course the better fix...
Anything like that would need to preserve the sanctity of the cloak. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.21 01:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Cearain wrote:So everytime you engage some ship you will likely have huge blob sitting there cloaked right next to it? Whats the solution? Have your own cloaked blob because they won't see you either. It sounds like fun, if and only if, you like bait and blob tactics. But they aren't my thing so I don't like it. As has been mentioned in thread after thread. Removing local (or removing it for everyone who can fit a cloak which isn't hard to do) will just help those who want to blob. EVE does not really need a mechanic to help blobbing. Wow, you didn't bother thinking that through at all, did you? The cloaked blob v. blob thing fails simply because you can't simply cloak every ship and form a blob. Only covops can target right when decloaking or even warp while cloaked. At best you may see more smaller skirmishes between covops equipped vessels, T3, etc. but certainly no massive cloaked blobs sitting around. Simply having a cloak equipped wouldn't remove you from local, only actually having the cloak active. This greatly restricts the threat from most ships. Only the specialized few would be able to attempt the hot drop. If you're alert and/or prepared, you can avoid it.
Once you engage the bait you get tackled. That is what bait does. The decloaking delay (even on an non cloak bonused ship) does not give you enough time to escape or kill the bait and warp off.
So they will just put a bait ship out and cloak up about 30 k away. As soon as the bait has tackle they uncloak and shoot.
Please tell me, If you are roaming, come in a system and can't see anyone in local other than the bait ship, how are you going to know that blob is there? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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