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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
222
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Posted - 2011.10.21 02:30:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cearain wrote:
Once you engage the bait you get tackled. That is what bait does. The decloaking delay (even on an non cloak bonused ship) does not give you enough time to escape or kill the bait and warp off.
So they will just put a bait ship out and cloak up about 30 k away. As soon as the bait has tackle they uncloak and shoot.
Please tell me, If you are roaming, come in a system and can't see anyone in local other than the bait ship, how are you going to know that blob is there?
Same as in wormholes... you don't. You have to decide if the potential risk is worth it. Cloak your own ass up, get in range and observe a bit. You'd be surprised how well things can work when you think before leaping into the fray. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
19
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Posted - 2011.10.21 09:09:00 -
[32] - Quote
Quote:And, most importantly, THERE WILL BE NO MORE "AFK CLOAKER" THREADS! Well thank goodness that's over with!
On another note: /supported. Though I do think CCP should completely rethink how "local" works in general. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
758
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Posted - 2011.10.21 09:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
You may be aware but I think your idea is balanced and solves the AFK issue.
+1 from me bud.
Edit:
Covert Kitty wrote:Though I do think CCP should completely rethink how "local" works in general. Well it will be changing, but in the mean time this will hopefully quell the whine.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Rina Asanari
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.10.21 11:11:00 -
[34] - Quote
Covert ops ships are too easily attainable to allow them to just pop up ANYWHERE in the system (and it's local) and instantly firing up a covert cyno, letting through a blob.
Same as with a cloaker lurking around and giving a signal for the safespotted cyno char to log in, fire up a cyno and let a blob through.
Too much potential for abuse, at least as long as cloaking is not time- or resource limited.
-1
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Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
67
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Posted - 2011.10.21 11:32:00 -
[35] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Cearain wrote:
Once you engage the bait you get tackled. That is what bait does. The decloaking delay (even on an non cloak bonused ship) does not give you enough time to escape or kill the bait and warp off.
So they will just put a bait ship out and cloak up about 30 k away. As soon as the bait has tackle they uncloak and shoot.
Please tell me, If you are roaming, come in a system and can't see anyone in local other than the bait ship, how are you going to know that blob is there?
Same as in wormholes... you don't. You have to decide if the potential risk is worth it. Cloak your own ass up, get in range and observe a bit. You'd be surprised how well things can work when you think before leaping into the fray.
So you decide if the potential risk is worth it by sitting there cloaked staring at the ship?? There is a difference between thinking and just sitting there waiting.
What should I be thinking about with no local to tell me if others in his same corp/alliance are there? He is on scan I am sitting in a ship I can fight him in. What is te thought process? Is it I have allot more time on my hands than he does so if he is bait i will wait around for someone else to take it. If he isn't he will eventually warp off and I will lose the pvp opportunty? Fill us in because think you are the ne who hasn't though this through at all.
Ok so your idea is to make it take much longer to find small scale pvp than it does already. This is the opposite of what eve needs.
"Same as in wormholes", weere there is far less pvp per person than low or null sec. Remember the EQ statistics from all the other threads you were posting this idea in? Perhaps you could repost them here.
I know you and many like wormholes and the no local aspect. Why don't you all just stay in your wormhole and have your pvp that takes forever to find together.
Judging by the numbers of kills per capita and per system most pvpers don't think making null or low sec "same as in wormholses" is a good idea.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
364
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Posted - 2011.10.21 11:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Rina Asanari wrote:Covert ops ships are too easily attainable to allow them to just pop up ANYWHERE in the system (and it's local) and instantly firing up a covert cyno, letting through a blob.
Same as with a cloaker lurking around and giving a signal for the safespotted cyno char to log in, fire up a cyno and let a blob through.
Too much potential for abuse, at least as long as cloaking is not time- or resource limited.
-1
Hey Rina, I fully agree with you on that, that's why I put in place the time delay in being able to fire up a cyno when decloaking. I do think certain ships should be allowed exceptions, such as Black Ops, but you're right... the abuse potential definitely demands a time delay on the cyno when uncloaking. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
393
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Posted - 2011.10.21 16:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Not too proud to give myself a little bumpage. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
betoli
Morior Invictus. Velocitas Eradico
8
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Posted - 2011.10.21 16:27:00 -
[38] - Quote
+1 makes sense |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
91
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Posted - 2011.10.21 17:26:00 -
[39] - Quote
Don't be ashamed of the bumpage we need to hammer out any more kinks if possible and once its all hammered out we present it to the CSM.
If you know any CSM members have one of them take a look at this idea before presentation. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
403
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Posted - 2011.10.21 21:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Don't be ashamed of the bumpage we need to hammer out any more kinks if possible and once its all hammered out we present it to the CSM.
If you know any CSM members have one of them take a look at this idea before presentation.
Well, it seems pretty close... not seeing any dramatic alterations needed. Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
22
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
1. Only BOs NOT recons can possibly have the no cyno delay. Otherwise this idea just makes AFK cloaking even MORE powerful. Just make the afk cloakers switch to recons. 2. Only BOs and Covert Op cloaks can get you removed from local.
Either that or just forget the removing from local bit and put the delay on the Cyno, less problems then while still solving the major problem from cloakers.
Everyone can defend from a single cloaked ship, no-one can defend from a cloaky putting a hot-drop on your head.
Also its not going to affect super-ratting either way, they always sit align so disappear off before you can do anything anyway (if the pilot's IQ isn't in single figures anyway! :) ) -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Caldain Morrow
The Reavers Externus Hostis
3
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
As one who has alway equate SBs to subs.
+1 |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
762
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 08:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:1. Only BOs NOT recons can possibly have the no cyno delay. Otherwise this idea just makes AFK cloaking even MORE powerful. Just make the afk cloakers switch to recons. 2. Only BOs and Covert Op cloaks can get you removed from local.
Either that or just forget the removing from local bit and put the delay on the Cyno, less problems then while still solving the major problem from cloakers.
Everyone can defend from a single cloaked ship, no-one can defend from a cloaky putting a hot-drop on your head.
Also its not going to affect super-ratting either way, they always sit align so disappear off before you can do anything anyway (if the pilot's IQ isn't in single figures anyway! :) ) The whole point of being removed from local, is to stop the reason for AFKing.
As for the cyno delay, the force recon and the BO should be exempt. The recon cyno can still be stopped with a jammer, but that makes it situational rather than fixed.
My own idea based around the cyno was as such, with a slight change based around the covert cyno and timing.
All cynos have as standard a 1 minute spool up timer, but the BO and the Force Recon get a bonus to reduce this. The bonus could work one of two ways:
1. 20% per level reduction in spool up per level, leaving no spool up time at level 5.
or 2. 11 Seconds per level reduction in spool up time, leaving 5 seconds at level 5.
This would mean that the use of ships with cynos would be far more tactical and situational. You will need to choose the correct ship for any particular operation. You can still use a cheap throw away alt or any ship type for cynoing, but if you wish to hotdrop then a choice must be made.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
97
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Posted - 2011.10.22 10:04:00 -
[44] - Quote
Must stay on top page! |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
89
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Posted - 2011.10.22 10:34:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mag's wrote:You may be aware but I think your idea is balanced and solves the AFK issue.
+1 from me bud.
and that's why it won't be implemented [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
790
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 10:53:00 -
[46] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Mag's wrote:You may be aware but I think your idea is balanced and solves the AFK issue.
+1 from me bud. and that's why it won't be implemented So true.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Alexei Orlov
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.22 10:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
I like it. It's an elegant solution, it covers the main issues with few changes.
Personally, I don't particularly mind the way the system is set up now, I can live with it. But, if this will put a knife in AFK Cloaker complaining, I'm definitely for it.
Conceptually, I like the idea of the cloaked ship dissapearing off local (though briefly there when entering the system.) Being "local-blind" once cloaked seems to me a fair trade for that advantage.
The cyno delay and which ships receive it could withstand some debate. All in all the idea seems ready enough for you to bounce it off the CSM. There's enough of them in that group with hefty knowledge of 0.0 (the locale where this will likely have it's strongest effect) that they or the think-tanks in their alliances should be able to catch any oversights not covered here.
Hm, a thought, what would be the effect of this in say High-Sec Wars? Having those reds dissapear in the more "secure" regions of space might be quite the advantage in that style of fighting. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 11:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
Bumping the only intelligent thread I've yet seen re-- cloaking.
Not sure I like the "spool-up" time for non-Recon/non-BLOPs/non-covert cynos, but w/ev, it'd work.
+1, would read again. I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
32
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 12:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Bienator II wrote:its a good idea.
however the problem with this suggestion is that its in fact a workaround for something which has its root cause is the local chat used as intel tool. In long term a real intel tool like a radar or a improved/useable dscan (useable for humans not only for bots) would be of course the better fix...
Anything like that would need to preserve the sanctity of the cloak.
^^Goes without saying, but I'll repeat it regardless. Or, to look at it another way:
As long as nullseccers--and other entities--get so many free "god-mode intel" tools--local, private intel channels, and fixed/known entry/exit points to their space--then cloaking in its' current form, along with cyno mechanics, are working exactly as they should be.
(Above, in before whinging victim-card waving zerosec carebears )
I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 12:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Grimpak wrote:Mag's wrote:You may be aware but I think your idea is balanced and solves the AFK issue.
+1 from me bud. and that's why it won't be implemented So true.
Making solo and small scale pvp even more rare in order to "solve" some imaginary afk cloaking issue is not a good idea.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
815
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 16:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Cearain wrote:Making solo and small scale pvp even more rare in order to "solve" some imaginary afk cloaking issue is not a good idea.
You are correct, AFK cloaking is not an issue but the local intel channel is.
Not sure how it will make solo and small scale PvP rarer though tbh.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
837
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 08:12:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lyrrashae wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Bienator II wrote:its a good idea.
however the problem with this suggestion is that its in fact a workaround for something which has its root cause is the local chat used as intel tool. In long term a real intel tool like a radar or a improved/useable dscan (useable for humans not only for bots) would be of course the better fix...
Anything like that would need to preserve the sanctity of the cloak. ^^Goes without saying, but I'll repeat it regardless. Or, to look at it another way: As long as nullseccers--and other entities--get so many free "god-mode intel" tools--local, private intel channels, and fixed/known entry/exit points to their space--then cloaking in its' current form, along with cyno mechanics, are working exactly as they should be. (Above, in before whinging victim-card waving zerosec carebears ) Missed this first time around, good post and a useful bump.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
63
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 08:59:00 -
[53] - Quote
Oh yes, another remove local thread. Ok how bout:
Remove local Remove JBs Remove Jump Freighters Don't nerf supers Remove blockade runners Nerf all ships with jump drives to 1 LY max Nerf freighter cargoholds to 100km3
Yeah lets make life in nullsec shittier. We already can't mine because every goddamn system is full of jackasses in bombers and cloaky t3s who will cyno in a full blops fleet at a moments notice, can't rat for the same reason, not that it's worth it with the sanctum nerf. Let's make it easier for 50 man gangs to **** us in the ass, or for enemies to drop a fleet of 50 titans in system because all we'll see is a cyno and not a local spike. Yes make it impossible to tell when we jump into a system that there are 20 reds on the next gate because you don't have local. You think null is safe? YOU DONT ******* LIVE IN NULL THEN. You pubbies need to stay in high sec and keep your mouths shut. Null is not high sec, it is not low sec, it is not ******* wormhole space. We dont have gate guns, we dont have concord and our gates dont stop letting people in when a certain number comes through. You want 0 on 1 go to highsec (if you idiots learned how to fit ships you wouldnt get ganked so easily), you want 1 on 1 or small gang go to low sec, If you want to not see an enemy for months and just collect isk get in a wormhole.
Nullsec is for big boys and girls. People who know how to organize. People who can form large social groups who can rally around a common goal and work together. People who do isk making crap to fund their reason for being in 0.0. PVP. Real pvp, not roleplaying fake fight crap, not wardeccing **** corps (except for the lulz and tears), not ganking idiots in bad ratting ships (except for lulz), getting into fleets where your FC goddamn better have the fleet command skill, and killing massive ships, and hundreds of people. If you cant get a fleet of at least 50 forget about ever coming to null. You'll just cry like a ***** the moment you get hit with a fleet with a capital in it. Nullsec is not a nice place.
Local has a purpose, its not just to keep us alive. No local you dont know what to bring out, is it a 10 man gang? Is it 50 guys come to **** around? Or is it 400 subcaps supporting a capfleet with 100 ships come to try and take your moons/sov/slaughter everything. Null is not in any way shape or form SAFE. You die, A LOT. Sov holders and their enemies alike. Come to Fountain some time, go to Serpentis space and spend some time with them, get bombed to oblivion. Come fight PL, Brick, MM, Evoke, AAA, Black Legion, Sniggwaffe, Monkey Circus, Nulli Secunda, and 2 dozen other corps and alliances that attack daily. Head to Delve and enjoy the massive fleets with the same guys who will **** your face. Oh yeah so safe.
This is what nullsec is, it is not highsec. If you're smart, pay attention to intel and local, and don't do stupid **** you might be able to fly around in that nice ship of yours for a week or two. The only way to survive nullsec is the same way you win eve. You stop undocking, and you unsubscribe. |
Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
865
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 10:34:00 -
[54] - Quote
Princess Cellestia wrote:Rant........ Not sure if serious.
CCP Zulu..... Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Mr Painless
Temnava Legion
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 10:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
@Princess Cellestia
Remove local - No, just change local from being an ultimate intel tool to being a mean of communication with limited intel providing ability. Remove JBs, Remove Jump Freighters, Don't nerf supers, Remove blockade runners, Nerf all ships with jump drives to 1 LY max, Nerf freighter cargoholds to 100km3 - I don't think anyone is seriously advocating any of the claims above.
Your post looks like an attempt to accuse anyone advocating changes to local/cloaking as being a whiner living someplace else, not in null. Yet, your entire post is nothing else but a whine.
I'm a WH dweller, but had my share of living in sov null, and all I can say is that your "living in null is hell" claim is grossly exaggerated. Even now, whenever we get an exit to null, 90% of the time we see the same picture: Vast regions of mostly empty space, populated by very few people, doing nothing but PvE all day long (judging by ship types we find in space and also number of NPC wrecks compared to number of people). No cynobombers, no capital blobs, no camps, mostly nothing of the sort. Now, I'm not saying that this sort of stuff doesn't happen at all, but I'm pretty sure that a competent, well organised group of people (which you claim to be) should be able to handle those threats.
From my perspective and experience it takes far more organisation and teamwork to do PvE ops with reasonable security in WH than in null space. Do you for instance have a scout on every gate while doing PvE? Is there a need to probe the entire system before the op, and is this a common practice? No. Mostly your entire intel gathering/threat assesment is based on watching local. Assuming it's actually you and not some botting alt. I feel absolutely no pity for your troubles mate.
And for the matter of cyno blobs, which is the only significant difference in risk compared to WH space: Besides the delay in cyno firing, the proposed change says that a cloaked pilot is not only removed from local list, but also has no access to it. Therefore, he cannot at any time (while being cloaked) know exactly how many of you are in system, and evaluate if the situation is viable for a hotdrop or is his fleet risking a trap. AFK cloaking in this proposed change is therefore obsolete as it cannot provide any intel without pilot's presence and also serves no purpose in making you guys nervous 'cause there's a red in system - you simply don't know he's there.
And finally, for your 400 man blob vs blob "real PvP" - cloaking mechanics and local won't affect this in any way as it is unlikely to imagine a fleet of 400 BS + capitals all fitting cloak and still making sense. |
Princess Cellestia
Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore
63
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 11:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mr Painless wrote:@Princess Cellestia
Stuff
Honestly, I want to know what nullsec region you went to, it sounds awesome. I can't go a jump in Fountain without running into a different corp/alliance wanting to eat my face. Even with constant HD fleets, there are so many we can't keep em out.
And the Nerf everything is called a slippery slope argument. All those suggestions are garbage that are thrown out costantly. Making cloaky campers invisible in local isnt fixing anything, its just making people blind. Cant see em and some sad pathetic fool might think its ok to mine, then hes dead and the guy cloaks and dissapears from local, did he leave did he cloak? Who knows. Effect is the same, cloaky campers shut down systems completely. They're the reason mining doesn't exist in Fountain anymore. We had 20-30 man mining fleets in 10 different systems, now only the noobs and the masochistic do it. Still kicking myself for paying out of my own pocket to upgrade 3 systems to level 3.
As for the super blob it was refering to the general removal of local, making it like a WH. Also unlike WHs only a limited number of people can enter your hole before the entrance closes, in null all you have is local. Who's in local gets sent around through intel channels yes, that's the average resident's only means of survival, watching intel and not being a moron. Counterintuitive since most alliances have a LOT of morons.
You also fail to realize how this could imbalance sov warfare. Being able to go into a system where the enemy is staging a large fleet and remaining completely invisible, gathering tacticals, scouting fleet comp, getting valuable intel while the fleet may not have noticed you in the 5 seconds it took to load grid and cloak. The ability to gather intel while not alerting the enemy to your presence would heavily drive the advantage to the attacker. |
Lyrrashae
Crushed Ambitions Universal Consortium
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 11:46:00 -
[57] - Quote
Princess Cellestia wrote: [over-entitled victim who gets free candy, whinging because it was the green candy, not the red]
Hey, mindless lemming, given that zerosec is supposed to be the acme of player-driven content in this game, well then...it follows on that it was YOU who've made it that way.
You shat your beds, feel free to sleep in them.
Go play your victim-card somewhere else, you spoiled, pathetic little carebear: "Princess," indeed! I A/F/K cloak in Jita. Does that count? |
Cearain
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
67
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 12:37:00 -
[58] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Cearain wrote:Making solo and small scale pvp even more rare in order to "solve" some imaginary afk cloaking issue is not a good idea.
You are correct, AFK cloaking is not an issue but the local intel channel is. Not sure how it will make solo and small scale PvP rarer though tbh.
People will just start sitting cloaked around gates or bait ships. So small gangs will just get blobbed even more than they currently do. At least now small gangs can see many people in local in the same corp or alliance. Now even that limited information that helps reduce blobbing will be gone.
Here is the post that explains the problem. Of course, the op just ignores the questions it raises.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=222866#post222866 Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
11
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Posted - 2011.10.23 12:54:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Exception to #3 to consider: I'd consider allowing Black Ops (and possibly Recon) ships to not suffer the delay in firing a cyno. They're a special class of ship that should have this ability.
That'd be easy to do. There are cynos then there's the covert cynos. No delay for covert cynos 'cause Blacks Ops certainly don't need a nerf right now.
Im cool with your system because it works both ways. Cloaking make you invisible and blind to local. |
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
417
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 13:44:00 -
[60] - Quote
Princess Cellestia wrote:Oh yes, another remove local thread. Ok how bout: Happy happy fun rant
I don't think you read the proposal through fully, or even at all. There would be proposed safeguards in place to greatly reduce the possible abuse of cynos blobbing on you.
Interesting also is Caerain's concerns that suddenly everyone in null will be flying covops and all null will turn into covert blobbing... Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |
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