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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3194
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Posted - 2013.05.14 07:11:00 -
[31] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:My favorite battleships of the war were the Kongo class. Of Japanese Battleships they did more fighting in Pacific than the rest combined.
Even better! Awesome.
And yeah, Japan wanted the Pacific war to be decided in one massive engagement, so they kept all their "flagships" and critically important vessels as safe as possible, avoiding committing them to small engagements. Hence, the less-equipped battleships saw almost all of the action. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14259
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Posted - 2013.05.14 07:20:00 -
[32] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Frigates are supposed to be useless, small, cheap craft with no punch that serve as the firepower where the other guys have shuttles or as scouts for a bigger battle group or a plain run of the mil ship for your average tom **** and harry with no isk. [citation needed] GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Axel Kurki
Aseyakone
20
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Posted - 2013.05.14 07:35:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nah, that's just a bad troll. Or someone who's used to in WoW that higher level is always better.
And on guns, Maelstroms can fire up to eight 1400mm cannon, or if wanting to count barrels, sixteen 650mm repeating artillery cannons. (Autocannons. That's 25.6 inch diameter for those suffering of archaic units of measurement.) If we want to split hairs, EVE ships carry at least the double the amount, since they have to cover both sides.
Ragnarok, of course, has six hardpoints of quad 3500mm siege artillery or 6x2500mm repeating artillery. Which is, technically, 2x24 3500mm barrels or 2x36 2500mm barrels, making it the most overgunned heap of scrap metal with a warp drive in the cluster. |
Le Badass
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
76
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Posted - 2013.05.14 07:56:00 -
[34] - Quote
Came expecting American chestbeating. Got some with Polish chestbeating as a bonus. Left satisfied. |
Stan'din
UK Corp RAZOR Alliance
125
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Posted - 2013.05.14 08:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:Notice how every time anyone, anywhere in the world, wants to give an example of a mighty battleship, they invoke the name of the USS Missouri.
I'm not one of those "Mericuh! F**k yeah!" kind of Americans.... but recognize that this nation of mutts I call home, built the single most destructive conventional weapon in the history of mankind.... :)
Still not as bad ass as a carrier ;) Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican. |
Alara IonStorm
5025
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Posted - 2013.05.14 08:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: And yeah, Japan wanted the Pacific war to be decided in one massive engagement, so they kept all their "flagships" and critically important vessels as safe as possible, avoiding committing them to small engagements. Hence, the less-equipped battleships saw almost all of the action.
One of the interesting things about the Japanese decisive battle will end the war theory is what it did for everything else on the war front. Japan planned a short war where one victory would be required to end it while the US looked two years ahead. This is evidenced by almost everything the US did vs when the Japanese started doing it. They tended to addapt after the crisis started not before in prevention of it.
After Pearl Harbor the US knew exactly where its bread was buttered and immediately started laying new Essex Carriers out. Even realizing that these new Carriers would take too long they started converting 8 Light Cruisers under construction for the coming storm. While the Japanese converted a few ships designed to be converted to Carriers in the event of war and had a prewar one under construction the first new Japanese Wartime Carriers were laid after Midway. 9 Months after the conflict started.
The Japanese planned 16 new Unryu class Fleet Carriers. The penultimate Aircraft Carrier battle of the Pacific happened at the Mariana's in June 1944 saw 5 Japanse Fleet Carriers and 4 Light Carriers face 7 US Fleet Carriers and 8 Light Carriers and the first two Unryu Carriers were commissioned less than a month after and a third 2 months after that. Nine months is along time. They became so desperate for Carrierss they did this to one of their Battleships.
The plans for the rest of them were curtailed by Japans steal and oil supply lines being cut. Japan didn't start building Escort Ships and organizing convoys in large numbers until late 1943 after their merchant fleet was being decimated. They had in commission 2 types C and D from early 1944 building over 120 of them and introduced more small Escort Carriers after the battle for their supply lines was in full swing and therefore too late. They also didn't want to assign front line Destroyers considering the ASW duty of protecting merchant ships unworthy. As well they built hundreds of cheap no frills merchant ships to combat the losses they were incurring. Compared to the early US effort to put Escort Carriers and Destroyer Escorts / Frigates to sea and assign more Destroyers to back units plus their massive right from the start Liberty Cargo Ship construction program. About 6 nearly finished Carriers would be left incomplete to these shortages and too...
Then their were their pilots and planes. They had the absolute best of both when the war started. The Zero is an icon that served as their go to naval fighter for the entire war. The US Wildcat was inferior so the US released the Hellcat and the Corsair to beat down the Zero and it worked and there in lies the problem. They had the best fighter and didn't put their designers to the task of building something that could best it and therefore the fighters the Allies would be designing. Those great pilots on the other hand inflicted heavy US fighter casualties... then all died. The US worked very hard to pump out qualified pilots and over 5 or so battles and dozens of skirmishes the great Japanese pilots were slowly whittled down by AA fire and enemy planes and little was being down to replace them until they realized they were in short supply.
That battle in the Mariana's above was called the Great Mariana's Turkey Shoot because the quality of new pilots was so very low while the quality of new US planes was so very high. The Japanese would then with few good pilots left abandon their Carriers and begin the Kamikaze flown by pilots with as little as a days training. 4000 Kamikaze would fly and 10000 more were waiting on the home isle, they had the planes not the pilots. Well they did innovate on one plane... yeah that's a human missile.
Even on the ground Bolt Action Rifles were the primary weapons produced of the entire war and when I say primary I mean it. Not one semi automatic rifle saw full service. They knew how to make Sub-machine guns, the kind great for island, jungle, mountain, urban fighting, basically the Pacific War in a nutshell but only made 30000 for special forces and over 6 million bolt actions. There first anti tank rocket launcher came too late and many new antitank guns would not pierce American tanks.
All this led to a strategy where starving regiments would be blockaded, scouted, bombarded it and take out the airforce and than US / Australian troops invaded with a force tailored to defeat their enemy killing 5 sometimes 10 to 1 with the principal strategy being no surrender, fight to the death and maybe the Allies will be like, this is too bloody let's go home. Instead they took the Islands they needed and bypassed the ones they didn't leaving them to starve and used them to bombard Japan too dust with B-29's.
Once we bring our Battleships into the ocean now swarming with uncontested Allied Subs and Bombers we will have our Battleship duel with the Great Yamato crushing their Battleships and they will realize it is hopeless. Just one more bloody battle and they will all go home. People say production won the war and they are right but Japanese strategic planning and lack of adaptation sure played a big part in helping. |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
1184
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Posted - 2013.05.14 08:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
the mistake you are making is comparing EvE ships and technology with Real historical examples
just don't it is not working
rhe only thing is what is real is that the EvE BS on their own are just as vulnerable to gangs of smaller more nimble shps as their real historical counterparts
I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
^ ... for a bit different reasons, but yeah.
Adunh Slavy wrote:Because Eve is a game. If BSes had point defense weapons, frigs would be pretty useless. It's about balance and roles. So, even new players in frigs have a role. Pretty much this, although I must admit that it made me chuckle when I realized that a couple of even 3500mm guns are nothing like firepower you would install onto 18km long ship, even if you take into account all those "guns" on ship model added to make it look plausible that you can fire in any direction, as by game mech.
Let's not even start on that IRL you'd rather build several ships instead... |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
158
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Posted - 2013.05.14 10:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote: You are even lucky that Adolf ****** started his war before his navy was ready. 5 planned classes were to be built, were bigger then the Missouri. The biggest class was 5 times as large and was to carry 20 inch guns. Would have been an absolute beauty. In the end all Adolf ****** achieved was besting even the worst Americans when it came to nuttiness and ignorance tho. Google "Nasi H-class battleships" for more info about them.
You mean they would have been good target practice for carrier launched torpedo bombers?
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Alara IonStorm
5025
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Posted - 2013.05.14 10:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote: You mean they would have been good target practice for carrier launched torpedo bombers?
Don't forget Dive Bombers.
Torpedo's hit below the belt, Dive Bombers burn the deck. I like that combination because it gives me the mental image of a very short guy running up to a big tall fat guy and punching him in the nuts, while he hunches in pain over another one comes up and drops an anvil on his head. Thump!
Call of Duty Looney Tunes Edition. |
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Funky Lazers
shin-ra ltd
250
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Posted - 2013.05.14 10:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Jarod Garamonde wrote:Notice how every time anyone, anywhere in the world, wants to give an example of a mighty battleship, they invoke the name of the USS Missouri. Guns are so 1940s... modern warships are basically Caldari. All missiles and ECM.
So true. Guns are 40s.
Nothing you can do if the ship fires at you from a distance you can't even see.
Love that battlecruiser btw. Whatever. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
160
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:55:00 -
[42] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Karsa Egivand wrote: You mean they would have been good target practice for carrier launched torpedo bombers?
Don't forget Dive Bombers. Torpedo's hit below the belt, Dive Bombers burn the deck. I like that combination because it gives me the mental image of a very short guy running up to a big tall fat guy and punching him in the nuts, while he hunches in pain over another one comes up and drops an anvil on his head. Thump! Call of Duty Looney Tunes Edition.
Not saying that dive bombers aren't good. But vs. a super-armored battleship, I'd rather have more torpedo bombers.
Dive bombers mess up the flight deck of a carrier pretty bad, though. They are awesome to settle a carrier vs carrier debate. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6381
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 10:57:00 -
[43] - Quote
Funky Lazers wrote:
Love that battlecruiser btw.
Kirov reporting! |
Alara IonStorm
5026
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:00:00 -
[44] - Quote
baltec1 wrote: Kirov reporting!
WHY AM I LOSING TOO BLIMPS!!!
I HATE THIS GAME! |
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium Kill It With Fire
170
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:03:00 -
[45] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Radius Prime wrote: You didn't, you are right that many Americans are nuts and ignorant tho.
As opposed to the smart rational people of other nations. Radius Prime wrote: The Japanese Yamato-class had almost twice the displacement of the Missouri.. So that's almost twice your tonnage and 2 of the class were built.
Actually they were a little less than 40% larger. A third was actually built as an Aircraft Carrier (Shinanno), the heaviest of the war. It was sunk by a Submarine like 10 days out of port. Hilarious I think overall. The Yamoto's designed to fight Battleships met their end to Aircraft, the Shinanno designed to face Aircraft Carriers and was sunk by a Sub. Just can't catch a break.
Shinano sank because her watertight compartments weren't, her crew was unfamiliar with the ship and early on, damage control measures that might have saved her weren't taken because of ignorance.
Also, there seems to have been a design flaw where the torpedo bulge attached to the armored belt.
Regarding Bismarck, the ship would have sunk eventually - after destruction of all heavy weapons - when the opening of the engine room flood valves accelerated her demise.
L++tjens refused to have the jammed rudder blown off for fear of damaging the screws. Personally, I consider his situation assessment to have been flawed in this regard. It's better to maybe limp home instead of being guaranteed to getting shot to pieces.
Also, had Bismarck been built with four screws instead of just three, that torpedo hit would have probably not knocked out all steering capability.
On another note, Missouri and the other ships of her class were mainly used as naval artillery platforms during the cold war. In that regard they're actually more like dreadnoughts in Eve than actual ingame battleships. |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1522
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:baltec1 wrote: Kirov reporting!
WHY AM I LOSING TOO BLIMPS!!! I HATE THIS GAME!
Least they were effing slow, and you could take your time killing them (if you caught them far enough out). Though, staying the hell away from them when they reached 'veteran' status was your best bet... One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
45
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Posted - 2013.05.14 11:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hey OP, the point you really want to make about BS in eve vs RL.. is the fact there aren't many windows on RL BS, but there are hundreds perhaps thousands on EVE BS. Considering these old BS have actual crews and ours have just one, who does the looking out of the many thousands of empty windows... |
baltec1
Bat Country
6385
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 11:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nessa Aldeen wrote:Hey OP, the point you really want to make about BS in eve vs RL.. is the fact there aren't many windows on RL BS, but there are hundreds perhaps thousands on EVE BS. Considering these old BS have actual crews and ours have just one, who does the looking out of the many thousands of empty windows...
We do have crew |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
141
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sumthinburnin wrote: This vessel is about the size (in length ) as a Coercer(278 m), has guns as big 406 mm (Very near eve's biggest rail gun)
You should compare to projectiles :P
...and stabber (217m) fits 720mm arties....
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Nessa Aldeen
First Among Equals
45
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Nessa Aldeen wrote:Hey OP, the point you really want to make about BS in eve vs RL.. is the fact there aren't many windows on RL BS, but there are hundreds perhaps thousands on EVE BS. Considering these old BS have actual crews and ours have just one, who does the looking out of the many thousands of empty windows... We do have crew
Fraid we don't, not the capsuleers..though in the past some of us wanted somehow to put the 'crew equation' in. As is, it's all empty save for your pod. Empire ships are of course crewed. |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
465
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Jarod Garamonde wrote:Notice how every time anyone, anywhere in the world, wants to give an example of a mighty battleship, they invoke the name of the USS Missouri.
I'm not one of those "Mericuh! F**k yeah!" kind of Americans.... but recognize that this nation of mutts I call home, built the single most destructive conventional weapon in the history of mankind.... :)
I think that mantle actually goes to The Yamamoto. She certainly had bigger mains, and I think more secondary guns as well.
However the US battleships have been used much more recently and have tracking that the older ships could only dream about. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
3197
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Deerin wrote:Sumthinburnin wrote: This vessel is about the size (in length ) as a Coercer(278 m), has guns as big 406 mm (Very near eve's biggest rail gun)
You should compare to projectiles :P ...and stabber (217m) fits 720mm arties....
In space, nothing will ever beat a big hunk of matter being fired at tremendous speed. Perfect accuracy and unlimited range. Self-propelled munitions would be prone to failure and only have so much fuel, meaning any advantage from guidance would be moot after a short time. Not that it is hard to predict motion in space and put a few hundred kilograms moving at 10% the speed of light exactly where something is going to be with a 0% error rate. TEST Alliance BEST Alliance |
Velicitia
Nex Exercitus
1527
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:06:00 -
[53] - Quote
Nessa Aldeen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nessa Aldeen wrote:Hey OP, the point you really want to make about BS in eve vs RL.. is the fact there aren't many windows on RL BS, but there are hundreds perhaps thousands on EVE BS. Considering these old BS have actual crews and ours have just one, who does the looking out of the many thousands of empty windows... We do have crew Fraid we don't, not the capsuleers..though in the past some of us wanted somehow to put the 'crew equation' in. As is, it's all empty save for your pod. Empire ships are of course crewed.
Oh, but we do One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
465
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Nessa Aldeen wrote:baltec1 wrote:Nessa Aldeen wrote:Hey OP, the point you really want to make about BS in eve vs RL.. is the fact there aren't many windows on RL BS, but there are hundreds perhaps thousands on EVE BS. Considering these old BS have actual crews and ours have just one, who does the looking out of the many thousands of empty windows... We do have crew Fraid we don't, not the capsuleers..though in the past some of us wanted somehow to put the 'crew equation' in. As is, it's all empty save for your pod. Empire ships are of course crewed. Oh, but we do
Crew could be a really interesting game mechanic. Something with a lot of variables and random values. Maybe with potential to exceed or underperform depending on situation, skills and history. It would also lend more impact to loosing a ship.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
391
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:baltec1 wrote: Kirov reporting!
WHY AM I LOSING TOO BLIMPS!!! I HATE THIS GAME!
QUICK!! BUILD MORE PATRIOT MISSILE!!!!!!
Or just go "gg" in chat... |
Adela Talvanen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
As some of you are into Battleships, and some of you think they have been consigned to history via aircraft carriers, you might find this interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QR9xDHQX0AU |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14262
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:43:00 -
[57] - Quote
Yes. The dreams of armchair generals are always interesting funny. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Adela Talvanen
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:54:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. The dreams of armchair generals are always interesting funny.
Sometimes thou 'arm chair generals' are more knowledgeable about things then the real thing.
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
192
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:55:00 -
[59] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. The dreams of armchair generals are always interesting funny. I particularly liked using using the Battle of Samar as evidence in support of Iowa reactivation. Fear God and Thread Nought |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:57:00 -
[60] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Yes. The dreams of armchair generals are always interesting funny.
TBH, both might be irrelevant if a proper missile cruiser (with sattelite support) ever gets build and let loose. Aircraft carriers are probably only relevant as a tool of force projection UNTIL a truly modern navy sinks them within hours of a conflicts start. |
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