Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 .. 15 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1954
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
You've told us that clone costs should be high many times now, but you still didn't give a reason as to why.
We gave you plenty of reasons of why they shouldn't be high. Now it's your turn.
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:First, your never offered proof why they shouldn't... other than it cost you ISK I did, and so did other people. Go and read the thread again. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Zappity
Kurved Space
81
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:10:00 -
[92] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:I suppose you're in favor of "ISK sinks" then, correct? Because we have a lot of ISK in the game, and that makes prices go up? And high clone costs will fix that?
So not only did you take that debate course, it looks like you went all the way for an economics degree too. Please tell me about all that "mudflation" while I pull my twenty-one exhumer bots out of the station and strip the local constellation of ore.
Mining is not an isk faucet.
But arguing that increasing clone costs will result in a greater isk sink is only true to a certain point. After that, people stop flying expensive pods in risky ways so the sink actually decreases despite increased cost.
The argument is that prices are already at that level. It is possible that decreasing clone costs will actually increase the sink due to increased pod losses. Hooray, I'm l33t! -á(Kil2: "The higher their ship losses...the better they're going to be.") |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:11:00 -
[93] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Training your character should not be a poor choice. That's ********.
So a player can't train his toon poorly... when did that change?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14273
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:11:00 -
[94] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage. There is no advantage. They are using such toons in combat because it's the toon they have. Why should they be barred from using fun ships just because they've used a single character for a long time?
Corey Fumimasa wrote:From a game balance point clone prices should go up. Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs. No, they're not. Mudflation and power creep are kept in check by the skill system, which ensures that an increasingly small portion of your SP is relevant to the task at hand at any given point.
It doesn't matter if you have a 40M character or a 250M character, the most you can put to use in a combat cruiser is around 35M. All the increased clone cost does is push people away from fun gameplay in small ships, even though there is zero connection between total SP and the kinds of ships you can fly. In fact, it does the exact opposite of what you're believing: it creates perverse incentives for alts and for going for Gǣbigger and betterGǥ ships, which pushes up the amount of gank and tank that the character has to field to protect those SP, which increases the gank and tank everyone else has to field to combat itGǪ and there's your power creep.
DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Mara Villoso
Big Box
77
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:12:00 -
[95] - Quote
The ship you're flying should be worth more than the cost to upgrade your clone. If it costs more to replace your clone than it does to buy and/or fit your ship, why did you train all those extra skills? |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1954
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:12:00 -
[96] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Mining is not an isk faucet. Yes, I know. What I meant by that was that there are many types of faucets in the game, and players like the poster I quoted don't seem to understand that. All they can do is parrot "ISK sink" over and over again because they have no concept of economics whatsoever. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:14:00 -
[97] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: I did, and so did other people. Go and read the thread again.
You complaint is because of your choice... there are consequences and you want that changed.
It cost you ISK.
There are what some consider valid arguments on why Clone cost should remain high (ISK sinks), but I am unsure of that. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
466
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:14:00 -
[98] - Quote
Tippia wrote: DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.
/thread
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:15:00 -
[99] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage. There is no advantage. Then don't use it. Train up another ton problem solved. Or choose not to. Player choice. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1954
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:19:00 -
[100] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Tippia wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage. There is no advantage. Then don't use it. Train up another toon problem solved. Or choose not to. Player choice. No, not having enough real-life bucks to have extra accounts going is not player choice, you royal imbecile. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:20:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tippia wrote:...It doesn't matter if you have a 40M character or a 250M character, the most you can put to use in a combat cruiser is around 35M...
So a player choosing to but more skill points into a combat toon is making a poor choice... one with the increase cost of clones will cost them.
Do you agree?
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14273
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Tippia wrote:Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Why choose to put a 200M skill point toon into a Frigate? Why are players using such toons in combat... they want the advantage. There is no advantage. Then don't use it. So you agree that it's bad design, then. Game content should not be obsoleted by simply playing the game.
The point is: you are clueless about how the game works, so pipe down a bit before trying to dismiss problems with thoughtless platitudes.
Quote:Train up another toon problem solved. No, that does not solve the problem GÇö it just spawns a new one.
Quote:I have seen biiter vets tell new players they can be effective in one day to fly a Frigate. Why don't they do it? What does that have to do with anything?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:23:00 -
[103] - Quote
Tippia wrote:
DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.
This I agree with. A different argument.
Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at.
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:24:00 -
[104] - Quote
Tippia wrote:So you agree that it's bad design, then. Game content should not be obsoleted by simply playing the game.
The point is: you are clueless about how the game works, so pipe down a bit before trying to dismiss problems with thoughtless platitudes....
|
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1954
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:24:00 -
[105] - Quote
It's like saying earning more money is a poor choice because you will have to pay more taxes, and the only way to get around that is either to not earn money (train skill points) or pay taxes (pvp).
How ******* ******** do you have to be to arrive at that kind of conjecture? I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:So a player choosing to but more skill points into a combat toon is making a poor choice. No. Why isn' it? You know clone cost are going up?
|
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5067
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:25:00 -
[107] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Tippia wrote:
DIsincentivising the use of small ships by old players is horrible design that has no upsides whatsoever.
This I agree with. A different argument. Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at. So you agree with everything you were just arguing against. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14274
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:28:00 -
[108] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:This I agree with. A different argument.
Game mechanics that artificially restrict/linit players from PvP should be looked at. Nope. It's the actual argument. If you agree with it, then good GÇö you've realised that the clone costs are horrible design (which is probably why they're being changed).
Again, why should they be barred from using fun ships just because they've used a single character for a long time?
Quote:Why isn' it? You know clone cost are going up? Because playing the game as intended is not a poor choice GÇö rather, game mechanics that make it detrimental are inherently flawed and need to be fixed. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
131
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:28:00 -
[109] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:It's like saying earning more money is a poor choice because you will have to pay more taxes, and the only way to get around that is either to not earn money (train skill points) or pay taxes (pvp).
How ******* ******** do you have to be to arrive at that kind of conjecture? Risk vs reward. All things being equal you know the cost of clones for a higher skilled toon are... higher. It is the game mechanic.
I know it cost you ISK and you don't like that, but you should know that alos before you but that toon in a frigate. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1954
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:31:00 -
[110] - Quote
Okay, I guess I'm going to have to stop flying frigates because I played this game for more than five years.
I fully realize and accept the error of my ways. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
|
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14274
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:32:00 -
[111] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Risk vs reward. GǪexcept that, by design, there is no reward.
Quote:I know it cost you ISK and you don't like that, but you should know that alos before you but that toon in a frigate. Why should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
471
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:33:00 -
[112] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Corey Fumimasa wrote:Mudflation and power creep are both limited by very expensive clone costs. I don't know what's sadder, the fact that you can't see how clone costs are detrimental to the game or the fact that you believe this.
High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players.
To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.
There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server.
I for one want to have more competition, not less, even if my char wont be as ubber as I want him to be right this instant. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3516
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:34:00 -
[113] - Quote
Mara Villoso wrote:The ship you're flying should be worth more than the cost to upgrade your clone. If it costs more to replace your clone than it does to buy and/or fit your ship, why did you train all those extra skills?
To wave my epeen in everyone's face when I kill them in a cheap meta fit T1 frigate.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:36:00 -
[114] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Nope. It's the actual argument.. For some it is. For example, CCP in their thread mention it as there goal... increase PvP. That is good.
But what happens if that actual result is bitter vets just save a couple of ISK. That the game needs to be modified because it is to hard for 200M skill point players. Seriously when does HTFU come into play?
Change the game for greater PvP... great. Change the game so bitter Vet can save ISK... bad.
I would like to think that is why cost are only coming down 30%. So CCP can gauge the result, and if it truly effects PVP... reduce them drastically. That would be good for the game; and if biiter vets save a some ISK it is worth it. On the other hand if PvP is unaffected, this change needs to be reconsidered. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14274
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. What advantages are those?
Quote:There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players Not really, no. The level cap already ensures this.
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:But what happens if that actual result is bitter vets just save a couple of ISK. That won't be the result. The people who will GÇ£just save a couple of ISKGÇ¥ are already not getting killed often enough to make it matter. The real effect comes from those who happily get blown up, but feel they need to protect their time investment by pushing the power curve upwards. They can now start flying fun ships again and stop being bitter.
Less power creep and happier players in one go GÇö there are pretty much zero downsides (and no, as an ISK sink, clones are not big enough to really matter GÇö it's less than 1% of the total ISK injected into the game and could be trivially replaced by more general sinks). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:37:00 -
[116] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
So you agree with everything you were just arguing against.
I agree with improving game play... not with those claiming it isn't fair. Different animals. |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:38:00 -
[117] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Okay, I guess I'm going to have to stop flying frigates because I played this game for more than five years.
I fully realize and accept the error of my ways. Another choice on your part.
|
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1955
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:39:00 -
[118] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:High clone costs are detrimental to high SP characters. Those characters have very substantial advantages. The cost of clones dampens those advantages, in effect limiting the difference between old and new players. High clone costs aren't detrimental to high-SP characters; they're detrimental to characters who pvp a lot. A high-SP character used by a total carebear who never gets out of his Hulk/CNR shares no downside re: clone costs with a high-SP character who only flies around null shooting and getting shot by stuff.
Corey Fumimasa wrote:To remove them would further separate old and new characters/alliances, and exacerbate the aforementioned issues of mudflation and creep. It would be like giving all players a 20% bonus to their current SP, pushing the highest skilled characters even further ahead.
There will come a point at which the newest players have no way to effect the older players, and at that point you are not playing on a single shard, rather 2 or 3 shards that are on the same server. No, because you can be just as efficient in a hull with a character at 30 million skill points as one with 180 million. You can only train so many skills that effect a single unified set of ships and items in the game. The only thing that more skill points gets you is diversification, and that is not a direct advantage. It just means that you can fly more stuff, not fly it better. I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:
https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:40:00 -
[119] - Quote
Tippia wrote:IWhy should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time? You are not barred... it just costs you. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14274
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 04:43:00 -
[120] - Quote
Bi-Mi Lansatha wrote:Tippia wrote:Why should you be barred from using fun ships just because you've used a single character for a long time? You are not barred... it just costs you. GǪfor no good reason. Why should it?
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 .. 15 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |