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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 11 post(s) |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7863
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Posted - 2013.05.16 07:54:00 -
[121] - Quote
Verbz wrote:This is a tax for stupid people, it would be cheaper to start a new account and train that way lol.
No, it's really not. There are cases where you want to train two characters but don't have a need to have them logged in concurrently.
In the past, if you wanted to train an alt for PI you had two choices: pause training on your main long enough to train another character or create a second account for your PI characters. That's a second account that you'd have to keep current. If you no longer wanted to pay for that second account, you'd have to pay 2 PLEX per character to transfer them to your main account.
Since it's a PI alt, you don't really need to log it in at the same time as your main, so there's no point to having it on a second account if you can have it on your main account. You now have a third choice: use a PLEX to train extra characters on your account without subbing a new one. It's more cost effective, and in some cases, preferable to a second account. mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9411
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:13:00 -
[122] - Quote
Just in case anyone was worried:
(1) Dual training isn't madatory
(2) It's not replacing multi-accounting, it's an "as well as", not an "instead of"
(3) It's useful for those who will use it. If you're not one of those people, then don't use it.
1 Kings 12:11
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Vizvig
Savage Blizzard Bright Side of Death
82
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 08:56:00 -
[123] - Quote
Today i can get SP via selling PLEX and buying character. But i get a lot of effort to do it and also i cant switch nickname of char.
How about direct conversion PLEX to SP? Really no diffirence with char trading but more useful. |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
96
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:04:00 -
[124] - Quote
xttz wrote:Will you use this opportunity to make single character training a bit more usable?
Let's say I want to train a very short skill (a few hours) on an alt character that isn't worth a plex. Currently we have to:
1) Log out 2) Log in the character currently training and pause it. 3) Log out again 4) Log back into the character you want to train temporarily and start the skill.
Why can't starting a skill from an alt automatically pause the other character on the same account?
It's funny because we were just discussing how the technical changes implemented to allow for this feature would also allow for pausing a character you are not logged into. Not likely to make it for Odyssey but certainly something we will consider for the future.[/quote]
What about making the training queue account-wide? So we could do queue skills from different characters in the queue, and switching actively trained characters would be automated, and we wouldn't have to relog every time we wanted to switch between toons training. I know, the dualtraining system makes this fairly complex, but that'd still be the most useful solution for the relogging issue, imho. |
pussnheels
The Fiction Factory
1189
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 09:12:00 -
[125] - Quote
give CCP a endorsement
Of course you will have people complaining that it isn't free and claiming this is another example of CCP dorcing microtransactions onto the players who cares i like the idea
Of course i presume you can still use the old way of training your alt I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire |
SunTsu Rae
Legion Of The Spoon People Gecko Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 10:21:00 -
[126] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Just in case anyone was worried:
(1) Dual training isn't madatory
(2) It's not replacing multi-accounting, it's an "as well as", not an "instead of"
(3) It's useful for those who will use it. If you're not one of those people, then don't use it.
We already know all of the above . . . .
The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.
I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.
AGAIN you can only use 1 toon at a time, therefore it allows a player/user to explore other options in the game.
In my case I would have 6 toons with 4 years, or roughly 70M+ sp per toon. Lots of options. Why is restricting us and asking for more money for a option that should be there already a good thing ?
You might want to consider a run for the US Congress, they use the same logic as well. SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) [url]http://www.vfw.org[/url] |
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 10:27:00 -
[127] - Quote
45 days please, to cover the inability to dualbox. |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 10:47:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:I'll bring this up with the team again, since a few people are asking about this in the thread, but it's basically to do with verisimilitude or what things belong/fit in game and what things belong/fit in account management pages. So far with the exception of PLEX, there is little in game which references account management and that's intentional.
Showing things which are removed from the EVE universe in gameplay or narrative terms is something we have tried to avoid, but like I said we will discuss this and see if the PLEX section or character sheet is the right place to potentially show timers like this. There are a number of different views within the team itself, so that's one of the reasons we have held off on a timer of some kind.
Feedback like this is great though as it helps us know what you guys wants.
Please, bring it up and try to make a convincing case.
Personally I see myself using this option very rarely and when I do it i don't want to waste any of the time but use the feature to full effect.
Also please note that people who use a credit card for paying their game time _very_ seldom have a reason to go to the account page. Over all the close to 10 years I've played I don't think I've been there more than maybe a dozen times, if even that.
You could perhaps make another tab into the character sheet for these kind of timers. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Tess La'Coil
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:04:00 -
[129] - Quote
SunTsu Rae wrote:[quote=Malcanis]Just in case anyone was worried: The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.
I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.
AGAIN you can only use 1 toon at a time, therefore it allows a player/user to explore other options in the game.
In my case I would have 6 toons with 4 years, or roughly 70M+ sp per toon. Lots of options. Why is restricting us and asking for more money for a option that should be there already a good thing ?
You might want to consider a run for the US Congress, they use the same logic as well.
Having multiple characters training on the main account at the same time for the current subscription fee would completely obliterate the Character/PLEX market.
This because SP would no longer have any value. At the moment It takes some form of dedication to train 1 character to a high level of SP. If you at the same time have another 2 training for the same price you're chopping the value of characters down by 1/3rd of current market prices. Plex currently somewhat represents a certain amount of SP/Hr over a whole month.
As an example lets say you train 1000sp/h this comes down to 720.000 sp per month (depending on implants). A 1 year old character would have 8.640.000 sp. And its worth would be about 12 plex. 12 plex currently represents 180,- worth of training. If you now make all 3 characters able to train, you can simply divide 180 by 3, making the worth of the character just 60,-
Can you see the rage of the 2003 chars? That 10 years of training. With a current plex value of 1800,- chopped down to just 600,- worth if they would change that. It's simply a choice that was made at the start of EVE to say 1 plex = 1 char training for 30 days. Revert that/alter that and you completely stab EVE's wallet.
The only thing this new PLEX for a second char training enables is to keep your main training, while you also train another char for a short while on the same account without first having to transfer it off your account.. train it for a month, and then move it back to your main account again. So basically you get 2 transfers for free. But you're limited to the use of the character, as it can only be logged in while your main is not. Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother.-á |
Tess La'Coil
Mercurialis Inc. RAZOR Alliance
43
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:05:00 -
[130] - Quote
Sable Moran wrote:Over all the close to 10 years I've played I don't think I've been there more than maybe a dozen times, if even that. Wait, so there are people that don't use a mobile app which just pulls and shows the subscription data from their API? Someone once said I was a muppet. If that's so, I'm quite sure the Swedish Chef is my brother.-á |
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9421
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:31:00 -
[131] - Quote
SunTsu Rae wrote:Malcanis wrote:Just in case anyone was worried:
(1) Dual training isn't madatory
(2) It's not replacing multi-accounting, it's an "as well as", not an "instead of"
(3) It's useful for those who will use it. If you're not one of those people, then don't use it. We already know all of the above . . . . The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD. I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it...
Mene, mene tekel upharsin
1 Kings 12:11
|
SunTsu Rae
Legion Of The Spoon People Gecko Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:47:00 -
[132] - Quote
Malcanis wrote: Mene, mene tekel upharsin
Ok , I'm game , what does Daniel have to do with this ? (curiosity peaked) SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) [url]http://www.vfw.org[/url] |
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:49:00 -
[133] - Quote
Thank you. |
SunTsu Rae
Legion Of The Spoon People Gecko Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:51:00 -
[134] - Quote
Tess La'Coil wrote:SunTsu Rae wrote:[quote=Malcanis]Just in case anyone was worried: The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.
I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.
AGAIN you can only use 1 toon at a time, therefore it allows a player/user to explore other options in the game.
In my case I would have 6 toons with 4 years, or roughly 70M+ sp per toon. Lots of options. Why is restricting us and asking for more money for a option that should be there already a good thing ?
You might want to consider a run for the US Congress, they use the same logic as well. Having multiple characters training on the main account at the same time for the current subscription fee would completely obliterate the Character/PLEX market. This because SP would no longer have any value. At the moment It takes some form of dedication to train 1 character to a high level of SP. If you at the same time have another 2 training for the same price you're chopping the value of characters down by 1/3rd of current market prices. Plex currently somewhat represents a certain amount of SP/Hr over a whole month. As an example lets say you train 1000sp/h this comes down to 720.000 sp per month (depending on implants). A 1 year old character would have 8.640.000 sp. And its worth would be about 12 plex. 12 plex currently represents 180,- worth of training. If you now make all 3 characters able to train, you can simply divide 180 by 3, making the worth of the character just 60,- Can you see the rage of the 2003 chars? That 10 years of training. With a current plex value of 1800,- chopped down to just 600,- worth if they would change that. It's simply a choice that was made at the start of EVE to say 1 plex = 1 char training for 30 days. Revert that/alter that and you completely stab EVE's wallet. The only thing this new PLEX for a second char training enables is to keep your main training, while you also train another char for a short while on the same account without first having to transfer it off your account.. train it for a month, and then move it back to your main account again. So basically you get 2 transfers for free. But you're limited to the use of the character, as it can only be logged in while your main is not.
Devalue ? Rage ? Really ? Go throw more money at your monitor. Talking to you and the crowd justifying this accomplishes nothing obviously. Therefore I shall no longer be dragged down. Good Day. SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) [url]http://www.vfw.org[/url] |
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
189
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:52:00 -
[135] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:Moraguth wrote:First off, this is one of the biggest changes to overall eve philosophy since the skill queue (and I've been here since beta). Second, I probably won't be using this feature, but if I ever do, there's one thing I'd like to be able to see.
You said the time remaining would be visible from the account management screen. I'd like to see that information available in game. From any of your characters. At any time.
Last, I have a question. Can you activate that secondary training a second time so that you could have all 3 characters on your account training at the same time? (spend two PLEX, of course) This is limited to 2 characters at the moment. We will monitor this and can make adjustments in the future. We have to monitor what impact this might have on the PLEX market, etc. We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game. At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either. You don't have to show the remaining time in game, but you could show it in the character selection screen. In the same way you see your remaining game time when your subscription is about to run out, as a warning: 'You have X days of subscription left.' Could it be possible, using the same mechanic, to show a similar warning it in the character selection screen like: 'You have X days of dual training left on this account'? Shown a few days before it lapses?
Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
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Dances With Valkyries
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 11:52:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:xttz wrote:Will you use this opportunity to make single character training a bit more usable?
Let's say I want to train a very short skill (a few hours) on an alt character that isn't worth a plex. Currently we have to:
1) Log out 2) Log in the character currently training and pause it. 3) Log out again 4) Log back into the character you want to train temporarily and start the skill.
Why can't starting a skill from an alt automatically pause the other character on the same account? It's funny because we were just discussing how the technical changes implemented to allow for this feature would also allow for pausing a character you are not logged into. Not likely to make it for Odyssey but certainly something we will consider for the future.
While we're dreaming, how about restarting a paused queue for another character (possible the one with the most SP) if the current training ends? |
Baron Holbach
Enterprise Estonia Northern Coalition.
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:06:00 -
[137] - Quote
Quote: For improved visibility, please note that activated and remaining Dual Character Training time may be seen at any time in the Account Management page.
in dev blob, if/is this info also visible in api? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9424
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:24:00 -
[138] - Quote
SunTsu Rae wrote:Malcanis wrote: Mene, mene tekel upharsin Ok , I'm game , what does Daniel have to do with this ? (curiosity peaked)
Your post was weighed, weighed and found wanting.
1 Kings 12:11
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:26:00 -
[139] - Quote
SunTsu Rae wrote:The point being , and I believe I have posted in my past 4 years somewhere about this , the player should not be taxed again for the option of training all toons on the account. PERIOD.
I pay for this account I deserve the full unencumbered use of it.
So you demand triple the value but want to still only pay the same 15 lousy bucks. Sounds reasonable
You probably also go into a McDonalds and say: "I paid for my burger, so I also want full unencumbered use of your whole menu, so give me two more burgers for free!"
You pay alright, but you pay for training a single character. You want more characters training, you pay more, mhkay? . |
Dances With Valkyries
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 12:30:00 -
[140] - Quote
CCP RubberBAND wrote:We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game. At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.
I would like to see this as well. I'm glad EveMon shows this but it would be nice if the character selection screen showed this as well. If I remember correctly, it shows the current skill queue duration so showing the account duration remaining above the characters would be nice. |
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dephekt
Whale Girth
7
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 13:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.
Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?
Surely, the character transfer process is either entirely or mostly automated at this point, and adding the logic to check if a character transfer is occurring between accounts belonging to the same person and removing the fee in that circumstance, would be less development than implementing the in-game UI, database, and website UI back-end changes required to make the Dual Character Training system functional. Not to mention the future development cost of maintaining the additional implementation code.
CCP already makes plenty of money from individuals paying for multiple simultaneous accounts to gain a second training queue, in addition to the arbitrary character transfer fees. This seems like more of an excuse to add more ways for people to spend money rather than alleviating some perceived player issue that only exists for a small fraction of people, which as I mentioned could be resolved by removing an already arbitrary fee with little development time or code impact.
If this whole article had been replaced with "Dev blog: Change Characters Without Closing The Game" you would have nailed an actual gameplay hindrance that affects virtually any player with more than one character that shouldn't even exist in the first place and would be worthy of development effort, without adding additional "opportunities" for us to share our money with CCP.
As I understood it, our game subscription fees are supposed to be going towards furthering the development and recurring costs of the game as it is. Drumming up more money should be a function of increasing subscriptions by improving and enhancing the game, not adding additional ways to spend money for the same game we're already paying a subscription for. |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
956
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 14:46:00 -
[142] - Quote
But... but... but, you now make our standard "what other MMO lets you train 2 accounts at once" meaningless!
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SunTsu Rae
Legion Of The Spoon People Gecko Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:06:00 -
[143] - Quote
World of Warcraft , yes I blasphemed , is a different sort of toon building format . But , they do not ask for more money to build a second toon and skill it on the same account.
(They do however bend you over with no lube when it comes to the expansions.)
I do not understand how you as a group can correlate why this is "unfair" to long term players. Won't ever. It's a new item, new offer.
I do not understand how you as a group find this extra charge acceptable. Not gonna happen.
I do see it being exploited , as I mentioned previously , on a tactical and strategic level by the alliances that can afford to do so.
I suppose that's acceptable. Mind you it still will take time to be felt on the order of a year or so, but expect it. SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) [url]http://www.vfw.org[/url] |
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
163
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:19:00 -
[144] - Quote
Tess La'Coil wrote:Sable Moran wrote:Over all the close to 10 years I've played I don't think I've been there more than maybe a dozen times, if even that. Wait, so there are people that don't use a mobile app which just pulls and shows the subscription data from their API?
Where is the need?
I've went to account management to change my billing period once (times two for two accounts), twice to check issues due to credit cards expiring, twice to select gifts (Christmas 2011 and that other time I've already forgotten what it was), two or three times to check changes to those pages and that's about it. Why should I have gone there more often just for fun?
So, in the end any information put there would be, sort of, behind a barrier. It would be much smarter to put the dual training timer into the game client itself. I would not call it breaking the verisimilitude. Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene. |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
197
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:24:00 -
[145] - Quote
Seems like maybe they should let it last 6 weeks or so? At 4 weeks it costs as much to run this as it does a second account. thhief ghabmoef |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
173
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:24:00 -
[146] - Quote
I completely support this, well done Devs. Tiericide is tiers by another name. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
1865
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:41:00 -
[147] - Quote
dephekt wrote:My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.
Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?
Because they have no way to confirm two accounts are owned by the same person. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
dephekt
Whale Girth
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 15:47:00 -
[148] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:dephekt wrote:My main issue with this is, if I get a second account and pay a 30-day PLEX, I get simultaneous use from both account one and account two. Under this system, for the same fee, you get the limited ability for 30-days to perform extra training on an alt character on your same account that you cannot play concurrently with your main. As I understand it, the main opportunity for benefit is limited to people that were paying character transfer fees and managing a "trainer" account to gain a additional training slot to later consolidate the characters to another account.
Why not simply eliminate the cost of performing character transfers from accounts owned by the same person and use the development time, instead, in implementing features or fixing current issues that will benefit a larger number of players?
Because they have no way to confirm two accounts are owned by the same person.
That's not true. There are numerous ways they could confirm this. Based on the name and information you give when you buy the account, the email address or telephone number you provide, your method of payment, gameplay IP ranges, etc. Granted, you can make an account in such a way that CCP would not reasonably be able to determine you are the same guy as another account. In such a case, you would just be treated as a separate entity as they would be unable to confirm you were the same person.
People that intentionally obfuscate their identity will know going in that they will not be able to use that system, so I don't see that as a problem. Basically, if you intentionally make your accounts look like they belong to different people, you have to live with the possibility that CCP may actually believe your accounts belong to different people.
If you're like me, you use your legal name and address when you purchase and pay for your accounts and you likely use the same payment method (or at least methods that are traceable back to your name). If you don't, then the onus is on you to prove you are who you say you are.
As an example, World of Warcraft allows transferring characters (only) between accounts owned by the same people. They have an automated system that does this. If your details between the two accounts don't match, you're out of luck. |
Styledatol
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
36
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:18:00 -
[149] - Quote
Dances With Valkyries wrote:CCP RubberBAND wrote:We discussed showing the time remaining somewhere in game, but it's not really a timer we want to be showing anywhere in game. At least we were not convinced this is something players would want to see ticking down at all time. As we do not show account time remaining anywhere either.
I would like to see this as well. I'm glad EveMon shows this but it would be nice if the character selection screen showed this as well. If I remember correctly, it shows the current skill queue duration so showing the account duration remaining above the characters would be nice.
That option is already implemented, in a way: If you use the PLEX for Time service, you will have remaining days of gametime displayed when you enter your character selection screen forever after using that service. I do know it only starts showing when you have less than 10 days left, or something like that. So I guess let your account expire, use PLEX for Time, and you'll have that counter displayed.
Edit: pics |
SunTsu Rae
Legion Of The Spoon People Gecko Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 16:20:00 -
[150] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:SunTsu Rae wrote:Malcanis wrote: Mene, mene tekel upharsin Ok , I'm game , what does Daniel have to do with this ? (curiosity peaked) Your post was weighed, weighed and found wanting.
You do realize that the fictional character you paraphrased got his knickers knotted later, right ?
The only other way I can take that is a RL threat.
Challenge Accepted. Come to Ohio. SunTsu Rae Ensuring Rights, Recognition, and Remembrance. (Gulf War 1991) [url]http://www.vfw.org[/url] |
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