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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Kossaw
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
63
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Posted - 2013.05.18 07:06:00 -
[271] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO. At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling.
Hmm, im sad to see my moros nerfed, but have to agree it was overpowered compared to the rest. However ....
The only reason we are using Blasters now is because you fixed the range issues last year. Even with that fix, the Moros needs to warp very close to the the shield edge on a large POS by setting warp-to range between 25 and 32 km. To get in range now will require every Moros to warp right to the shield edge, which would be OK if it wasnt for the ******** bumping mechanics that will see half of the capital fleet flying off at ridiculous speed.
While I would dearly love to see the Moros remain unchanged I think if something must be nerfed then the tracking nerf is enough and the optimal range nerf is too much.
Honestly though, I think the Moros is about right for POS killing and the other dreads should be boosted to match it. WTB : An image in my signature |
Hagika
LEGI0N
168
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Posted - 2013.05.18 07:25:00 -
[272] - Quote
Misaka Todako wrote:Hi CCP!
I know you guys are busy and doing a lot of awesome stuff to fix ships, but maybe give the Leviathan some love? - Torps aren't overly viable since they have no falloff, and it's very easy to get bounced out of pos shot range. Since Titans already have to keep a wider bearth due to their giant collision radius, it's basically not possible to use them reliably, and packing a set of cruises with you burns most of your SMA. (Assuming you're even in refit range after the magical bump fest happens) - We have no utility high - Missiles can't hit stuff smaller than a moon - We're heavily bonused into Kinetic, meaning we're totally ineffective against anything that's hardened against it. (Do they even make non-kinetic citadel missiles?)
While I realize there are other issues with Titans, I hope in this quick weapons balance pass, you could tweak the levi a little bit and give us something to chew on until a more complete balance pass hits titans.
Thanks! Yes there is actual ammo of other damage types, but swapping to it is almost a 10k dps reduction.
Really wish they would move caldari off the kinetic bonus and just give them a straight RoF or damage bonus. Would go a long way to making the phoenix better as well. |
Hagika
LEGI0N
168
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Posted - 2013.05.18 07:26:00 -
[273] - Quote
Kossaw wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO. At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling. Hmm, im sad to see my moros nerfed, but have to agree it was overpowered compared to the rest. However .... The only reason we are using Blasters now is because you fixed the range issues last year. Even with that fix, the Moros needs to warp very close to the the shield edge on a large POS by setting warp-to range between 25 and 32 km. To get in range now will require every Moros to warp right to the shield edge, which would be OK if it wasnt for the ******** bumping mechanics that will see half of the capital fleet flying off at ridiculous speed. While I would dearly love to see the Moros remain unchanged I think if something must be nerfed then the tracking nerf is enough and the optimal range nerf is too much. Honestly though, I think the Moros is about right for POS killing and the other dreads should be boosted to match it.
I agree, they should give the range back, and increase other dreads to be with the moros. The phoenix needs alot of love. |
Cyaron wars
SkREW CREW Local Down
22
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Posted - 2013.05.18 07:33:00 -
[274] - Quote
So this is 4th nerf moros gets starting from first nerf of drone damage years back. Just remove the ship class from the game and finish with it. |
Hagika
LEGI0N
168
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Posted - 2013.05.18 08:01:00 -
[275] - Quote
Cyaron wars wrote:So this is 4th nerf moros gets starting from first nerf of drone damage years back. Just remove the ship class from the game and finish with it.
Its a good ship class. The range nerf wasnt needed, the tracking nerf was though, same with the others. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1867
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Posted - 2013.05.18 08:41:00 -
[276] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Johnny thorir wrote:RIP moros It's still the best one tbh. -15% Tracking, DO you even play this game? yeah...it will still have the best tracking of all the dreads so... yeah, still the best |
CM Abimees
Welcome to Estonia
0
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Posted - 2013.05.18 08:44:00 -
[277] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Lelob wrote: Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?
Working as intended. Death to supers.
Thats CCPs plan ... make them useless and then just remove. Too big and excpensive ships, every noob cant afford those so nopoint to keep in game. Money wise those ships are useless for CCP :DDDDD F U |
CM Kaamel
Enterprise Estonia Northern Coalition.
0
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Posted - 2013.05.18 08:48:00 -
[278] - Quote
Why do you CCP newbs have to nerf thinks so hard. Cant you just buff bad stuff? Isnt it already enough you made suppers pretty much useless? |
Isbariya
The Dancer. Initiative Mercenaries
47
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Posted - 2013.05.18 08:49:00 -
[279] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Oh and maybe fix that shooting a pos shield doesnt require you to lock/shot the pos itself under it .That +20km realy hurts some weapon systems. Now this, would be an epic change. It would make a huge amount of sense, look a hell of a lot better and open up some large changes to POS warfare.
Well do that and noone will use dreads anymore to kill a POS because then fighter bombers will be able to hit it, too. |
Kerdrak
D00M. Northern Coalition.
58
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:00:00 -
[280] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Oh and maybe fix that shooting a pos shield doesnt require you to lock/shot the pos itself under it .That +20km realy hurts some weapon systems. Now this, would be an epic change. It would make a huge amount of sense, look a hell of a lot better and open up some large changes to POS warfare.
Indeed, shooting the forcefield directly would have much more sense and more realistic. But I bet that would require of some programming skills while balancing is only changing integers
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Crash Me
Enterprise Estonia Northern Coalition.
0
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:00:00 -
[281] - Quote
Isbariya wrote:Mr Floydy wrote:Naomi Knight wrote:Oh and maybe fix that shooting a pos shield doesnt require you to lock/shot the pos itself under it .That +20km realy hurts some weapon systems. Now this, would be an epic change. It would make a huge amount of sense, look a hell of a lot better and open up some large changes to POS warfare. Well do that and noone will use dreads anymore to kill a POS because then fighter bombers will be able to hit it, too.
I-¦d love that. It-¦d make supper carriers more usefull. As by CCPs given purpose for suppers atm is the "structure shooting"! |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
381
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:00:00 -
[282] - Quote
Hagika wrote:Oh yeah about the phoenix, how about dropping the kinetic bonus and swap with a Rate of fire or damage bonus to all, so its not limited to being great against weak kinetic pos.
Also buff the citadel missiles a bit or give the ship a bonus to Explosion Velocity.
Phoenix is still lacking alot and is the worst of the 4 dreads by far.
If they change it to get an ROF bonus can it PLEASE get more space to hold missiles in the launcher? The main issues I have heard about missiles is that they don't do full damage on anything that can move and that during large capital fights their DPS might as well be zero because the stacks of smartbombs everywhere kill all your missiles. Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
125
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:26:00 -
[283] - Quote
Phoenix:
Caldari Dreadnought Skill Bonuses: +5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire +10% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Torpedo Explosion Velocity per level (+5% bonus to Citadel Cruise and Torpedo kinetic damage per level removed)
Slot layout: 4H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets , 3 launchers Fittings: 450,000 PWG, 875 CPU Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 200,000(+12,500) / 150,000(-6,250) / 180,000 (-7,500) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate) : 50,000(+1,250)GJ / 3,500(-32.559)s Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass): 60msec / 0.03(-0.009)x / 1,200,000,000(-150,000,000)kg Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 115km / 45mm / 7 Sensor strength: 50(+2) Gravimetric Signature radius: 3000(-100)m
I think this could be a good first step to making the Phoenix better and then fix its weapon system up a bit aswell. Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |
JetCord
The Brony Herd Lost Obsession
5
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:39:00 -
[284] - Quote
give the moros back its 10 km optimal as basically now moros need to kiss the pos shield |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
5
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:43:00 -
[285] - Quote
Want to balance dreads?
1) Phoenix is really broken
- remove kinetic damage bonus + give generic damage bonus + improve exp velocity and reduce exp radius
2) Reveletion can receive a little boost
+ optimal boost seems good +might consider to reduce cap bonus on weapon and give more cap regen on the ships this is a hidden boost for jumoing/tanking and countering bhaalgorn
3) naglfar, yeah finally ccp fixed the split weapon system...lets not nerf it 1 month later..mmmh ok?
4) moros, right now the most popular could use some change like a lesser track nerf.
- 5/10 % track Want to nerf optimal too? giving moros less optimal than auto??? give @ least 2km falloff for each km of optimal u cut. Hitting chance is 100% @ optimal, 50% @ optimal + falloff, 0% @ optimal + 2x falloff Moros is good only under 40km and this is where u need tracking, u can't nerf damage projection AND tracking in the same patch.
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Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
5
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Posted - 2013.05.18 09:51:00 -
[286] - Quote
Also you can't fix blap dreads this way. A someone allread said blap dreads shoot a 3 x webbed, scrambled and painted target. The solution is in web stacking penalty ( huge change to all gameplay mechanic ) and in signature malus formula of x-l weapons Dreads disappeared after super EHP boost, now they come back. A nerf to moros and nag will reduce again dreads use. WFT about considering a fix on Aeon having more EHP of titans? |
G0hme
Lead Farmers Kill It With Fire
110
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Posted - 2013.05.18 10:04:00 -
[287] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended to help bring us a little bit closer to balance between the different dreadnoughts.
For the most part you all know the major balance problems with the class, the relative dominance of the Moros and the fact that the Phoenix has extreme difficulty applying damage to moving targets, even a moving carrier. These changes apply directly to the capital blasters, autocannons and pulse lasers, as well as to the siege modules themselves.
These changes are not expected to bring the class into perfect balance, but it should be a step in the right direction and be something we can build upon as we go forward.
X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff
X-L Autocannons: -10% tracking
X-L Pulses: +6.666% optimal
Citadel missiles: Remove the explosion velocity penalty from siege modules
Let us know what you think!
As a frequent Moros user I know this is a neccesary change, thanks for bringing it in line with the rest of the Dreads. However, I'd like to see the mineral cost swapped between carriers and dreads. As Carrier is a high versatile platform contra the Dread which once it hits that Red Sexy Button, usually is assumed to be lost when deployed in Empire. Shook Eelm's hand at Fanfest 2012 Shook CCP Dolan's hand at Fanfest 2013
Booted someone EVE-Famous from a pub at Fanfest 2013 |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
728
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Posted - 2013.05.18 10:16:00 -
[288] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Losing 10 km optimal and gaining 10 km falloff takes optimal from 33 km to 23 km, and falloff from 15 km to 25 km. Add skills - gives 28.75 km and 31.25 km. Add antimatter, gives 14.4 km optimal, 31.25 km falloff. Net result: no change to DPS at 31 km.
But this doesn't match Fozzie's statement of losing 3% DPS at 31 km with two TCs, so I dunno what's going on, lol. Your maths is a little bit off. You have taken the current 21km optimal with antimatter and no tracking mods, used tracking mods to get it up to 33, then subtracted 10. To get the correct figure you need to start with 21, subtract 10, THEN apply the tracking mods (which brings you close to 15km). At best tracking modules give about 1.5x the optimal. Currently that is 1.5 * 21 = 30 (roughly). After the changes it will be 1.5 * 11 = 15 (roughly).
No, I didn't use any tracking mods. I used the base module stats of a meta Ion Siege Blaster: optimal 33 km, falloff 15 km. Applying the changes of -10 km optimal and +10 km falloff to those gives optimal 23 km, falloff 25 km. Now add skills: optimal 28.8 km, falloff 31.3 km. Now add antimatter: optimal 14.4 km, falloff 31.3 km. If you use a T1 gun you have an optimal of 12.5 km instead.
But, as I said, it's difficult to reconcile these number with Fozzie's statement of -3% DPS at 31 km with two TCs, so I don't know what's going on. |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
695
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Posted - 2013.05.18 10:58:00 -
[289] - Quote
I do not really get the nerf of the Moros (probably biased as I trained for it) and I do not understand the nerf of the Naglfar at all.
Support fleets will be much more important you WILL NEED subcap support pilots on the field which is good for players with lower skill points.
Why not balance them in a way that the different dreads fill different roles on the field?
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Nerriana
Fistful of Finns Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1
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Posted - 2013.05.18 11:03:00 -
[290] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:wallenbergaren wrote:Nerfing the Moros tracking is fine, it could be nerfed more TBH, but why gut the optimal? You can't even hit a large POS in optimal with close range ammo now. Kind of silly IMO. At 31km with antimatter and two range scripted TCs it loses 3% of its dps. Hardly crippling.
Actually, it's problematic and silly. You should be able to hit large POS for full damage without any special fittings. Keep the tracking nerf, but there is no need to nerf the optimal. |
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unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Transmission Lost
35
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Posted - 2013.05.18 11:06:00 -
[291] - Quote
Yep, a ship made for pos bashing that can't hit a pos without range modules is not logical. |
badposting
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.05.18 11:18:00 -
[292] - Quote
I don't object too much to the range nerf but I do think it's excessive. A -5km change would be more reasonable tbh. That 3% DPS figure Fozzie cited is when you're right up on the edge of the forcefield which is far from always the case. |
smoking gun81
The Scope Gallente Federation
17
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Posted - 2013.05.18 11:47:00 -
[293] - Quote
This thread strikes me as a solution to dreads shooting sub caps but criteria are needed to shoot them with siege dreads:
1: The target has multiple target painters on it 2: The target is webed by multiple webs
Add into that people just love MWD's and you have a really nice situation of dread kills subs.
Solution:
Add the E-war penalties that the triage module gets to the siege module (E-war capacitor need bonus = 9,999,900% ) this prevents the dread doing one of or both the afore mentioned points farming them out to a supporting fleet.
Adjust siege module stats ( E.g. tracking speed bonus -15% scan resolution bonus - 80% / T2 siege tracking speed bonus -10% scan resolution bonus - 75% Damage multiplier bonus 800% ).
Increase the stacking penalties of damage and tracking modules.
Leave the X-L guns alone |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9443
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Posted - 2013.05.18 11:57:00 -
[294] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Johnny thorir wrote:RIP moros It's still the best one tbh. -15% Tracking, DO you even play this game?
Tell us more about the Science And Trade Institute's wars of imperial aggression.
1 Kings 12:11
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Officer Nyota Uhura
334
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Posted - 2013.05.18 12:31:00 -
[295] - Quote
This was mentioned somewhere else too: Why do you want to make the dreads the same?
In subcapitals, different ship classes give them different roles: consider BS, AF, bomber, recons, etc. etc. etc. If you are not going to introduce new capitals for different roles, perhaps you could spread the roles based on race.
- Moros: The short range blap specialist (nerf the blaster range). - Rev: The dps projection specialist (improve on that line). - Nag: The tanky dread? The alpha dread? (improve on that line) - Phoenix: The POS basher (+40% dmg but only on stationary targets or titan-sized ones)
Or something like that. It's too simplistic to have all dreads do the same thing equally well. It's not rock-paper-scissors. Make people want to choose a dread based on its intended role. Or, of course, you can introduce tons of capitals and give them different roles... but this would just be easier and wouldn't get everyone so mad. |
Rusty Kuntz
Relentless Influence
12
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Posted - 2013.05.18 12:40:00 -
[296] - Quote
oh hey, another change to make all ships in eve the same, just with a different paintjob. ~Sandbox~ |
Giullare
Insurgent New Eden Tribe RAZOR Alliance
5
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Posted - 2013.05.18 13:11:00 -
[297] - Quote
We forgot to mention the 40km nuet t1 armageddon coming 4th june.... last thing is needed right now is a dread nerf. (ninja dread nerf 17days beofre patch) |
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
108
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Posted - 2013.05.18 13:18:00 -
[298] - Quote
I am not capital pilot but seeing all the "RIP moros" it seems that Moros really needed nerf. Seriously have everyone been flyign that thing? Other discussions: Racial systems balancing and homogenization Bounty contracts |
PAcifisti
Kossu and Keppana Inc.
0
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Posted - 2013.05.18 13:38:00 -
[299] - Quote
Don't worry, Moros will still have superior DPS (the forgotten art of changing ammo) at all ranges and still have the best tracking of all dreads.
POS bashing? Have you heard of the secret art of Changing ammo to something else than antimatter. You will still deal more dps than the other turret dreads.
But in serious note, this is partly a change in the right direction (not sure about the projectile tracking change) but not enough. The Moros will still outdps and "out track" the Revelation at Any reasonable range with blaster vs pulse. If it was just a minor difference it would be ok but the dps difference is just way too much.
But what is the problem with capital pulse lasers? IMO the problem with Capital lasers is here (Current TQ values)
Neutron blaster cannon I Optimal 6000m -> Ion Siege Blaster Cannon I Optimal 30000m (5x Increase)
800mm Repeating Artillery I Optimal 4000m -> 6x2500mm Repeating artillery I Optimal 25000m (6.25x Increase)
Mega Pulse Laser I Optimal 20000m -> Dual Giga Pulse Laser I Optimal 37500m (1,875x Increase)
...Wait, what? Pulses have their "spot" in large weapons due to good range. All capital weapons have their dps increased roughly in the same ratio vs large counterparts but Capital pulses got shafted at range. Capital Blasters have roughly the same range as Capital pulses while retaining their DPS and tracking superiority.
6,666% increase in optimal isnt simply enough, unless you buff Revelations DPS you need to increase the range by a large amount, more like 50% increase in optimal range than 6.666%. Not sure what that would do to Avatar so the buff might be in the revelations hull.
Revelation would excell at mid-long range but outdamaged and tracked by moros and naglfar at short range. Remember the moros still deals 40% more dps than revelation at close range. Revelation SHOULD be able to outdmg the moros at longer ranges with Pulses, which it currenly doesnt (and won't do with these proposed changes)
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badposting
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.05.18 13:40:00 -
[300] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:I am not capital pilot but seeing all the "RIP moros" it seems that Moros really needed nerf. Seriously have everyone been flyign that thing?
More or less. On killmails you often see more Moroses than the other three dreads combined. Well, if it's not a scrub corp / alliance anyway. |
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