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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:25:00 -
[211] - Quote
Captain Semper wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended
X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff
Let us know what you think! Is it joke? For real CCP! You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf. You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges. And will have 10+30. Its just half of hes total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf: 20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game...
What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros. |
Isaiah Harms
Buccaneer's Brotherhood
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:27:00 -
[212] - Quote
Super capital pilots are rejoicing! The lowsec T-Rex is declawed. Less damage AND less range to threaten their supremacy. |
Captain Semper
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
28
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:28:00 -
[213] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:
What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros.
Potential dps... With 20+20 you do less damage than nagl to large control tower. And ofc damage TYPE. Nagl have choise. Moros - not. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1849
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:31:00 -
[214] - Quote
Makalu Zarya wrote:So galente are still best at something...caps and supers, cause quite honestly everything else still sucks, apart from a few select ships. Medium blasters and rails are still worthless compared to any other platform. Small are fine, but they are smalls, who really cares. Larges are really only a viable platform on a non-gal ship, which makes me rather sad.
While the moros nerf, now that I looked more closely at the math still leaves it as the best dread, the gap from moros to say rev is now much narrower than the gap between amarr bs and galente bs, which honestly no one really flies seriously. Now this might change with the upcoming domi which seems to be op, but I doubt much will change with the rest. Time will tell what works and what doesn't.
Next thing you are gonna nerf the nyx right? cause clearly it's op as well and people should fly Hels. Song seems relevant again - https://soundcloud.com/sindel-pellion/makalu-cries - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
142
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:37:00 -
[215] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Lelob wrote:Ouch!
Nobody will be training for the minnie dread now. The whole point was that it would be excellent tracking but now why even bother. Will remain unused with such a heavy handed nerf. Nobody except all of PL. Work on your propaganda. Lelob wrote:The moros nerf is especially hard. I'd suggest an optimal nerf of -5 to -7km, while mantaining the falloff bonus, and not touching the tracking. The tracking IS the major problem on the Moros. The optimal and falloff were high for a "close range" weapon, but -5/+5 would have probably sufficed. Lelob wrote:Dreads and especially titans don't track for **** without tp's or webs unless shooting at bc's or drakes so I simply don't understand this nerf. These are not being over-used or abused and seem like they're fufilling a good niche to counter sub-caps. This simply takes another tool out of the hand to counter massive bs or bc blobs with such a heavy-handed nerf. Imagine this: Titans and Dreads, being capitals, are supported by a smaller, more agile fleet. Not a fleet of capitals, mind you. Perhaps a fleet of sub-capitals. Ships that support the big one in doing its job. Not everyone drops 50 Supers on frig, or thinks "Hey we have a fleet of subcaps to kill here....get the Titans spooled up." #PLProblems
Blasters NEED the increased range to even have a hope of doing dps. It's why hybrids had to be so heavily buffed in the first place because "close-range" guns in the past were "**** that" guns. The reality is that the moros desperately needs the range to be able to use antimatter XL. The russian guy was right in saying that these changes are stupid because nobody will want to use antimatter XL anymore, which is pretty well what made the moros worth flying.
Also LOL, caps are only good vs caps? What kind of ******* ******** idea is that. All that does is force people into huge blobby coalitions, which having been one for the last 6-9 months, I do not want to have to do that again. People need force multipliers against blobs, and there's only so much flying in bombers until it gets very, very dull. |
Lelob
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
142
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:40:00 -
[216] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:Captain Semper wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended
X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff
Let us know what you think! Is it joke? For real CCP! You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf. You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges. And will have 10+30. Its just half of hes total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf: 20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game... What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros.
he's talking about damage projection, which is desperately needed. A moros will have difficulties tracking anything, no matter how webbed or painted within 10km, so having an optimal of only 10km is just stupid. Essentially this change makes antimatter XL useless.
Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9440
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:52:00 -
[217] - Quote
Lelob wrote: Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?
Working as intended.
Death to supers.
1 Kings 12:11
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Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:52:00 -
[218] - Quote
Lelob wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:Captain Semper wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hello once again everyone. We've got a small package of tweaks to capital weapons to announce, intended
X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff
Let us know what you think! Is it joke? For real CCP! You make Neglf most DPS dread. MOST! He making tonn of damage with new bonus. And you nerf moros MORE? Just delete all other dreads from game it change nothing. People will take naglf. You know that "new" moros cant even do normal dps to Large control tower? For now moros have 20+20 with AM X-L charges. And will have 10+30. Its just half of hes total dps - ~5-6k in siege. And lets take a look at naglf: 20+39... Autocan have MORE optimal than blaster. What the hell is that? So make that doctrine to all autocan! Let's delete blasters (hardest weapon in game to deal "tonns of damage") from the game... What the **** are you blabbering about? Nag still has 15% less DPS than Moros. he's talking about damage projection, which is desperately needed. A moros will have difficulties tracking anything, no matter how webbed or painted within 10km, so having an optimal of only 10km is just stupid. Essentially this change makes antimatter XL useless. Also, this is hilarious for titans. Not that they can hit **** anymore anyways, but why the hell would anyone even bother saving up for them anymore, other then to bridge?
Why the **** would you need anything else than a bridge and amazing gang bonuses? |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
727
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:53:00 -
[219] - Quote
I make Moros antimatter range without range mods going from 21/19 km to 14/31 km. Dunno where this 10 km whining is coming from. |
Cyrus Alabel
Justified Chaos
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 22:59:00 -
[220] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: X-L Blasters: -15% tracking, -10km optimal, +10km falloff
CCP design meeting: "Is anyone flying Gallente, and if so, how can we stop them?"
The Moros was in dire need of a nerf, no question, but that optimal nerf is going to kill the damage projection was the saving grace of the boat. Now you can't even hit a damn pos tower without sitting right on top of the shield. |
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1865
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:01:00 -
[221] - Quote
these changes balance out the 3 turret dreads reasonably. rev still needs a DPS buff and moros still needs a DPS nerf tho. |
waferzankko
Blackwater USA Inc. Pandemic Legion
15
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:08:00 -
[222] - Quote
its about time, now i can sell my stack of revs. |
AndromacheDarkstar
Zebra Corp Gentlemen's Agreement
745
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:14:00 -
[223] - Quote
Playing for 4 years, ordered my first dread a couple of weeks back. Guess what I went for. Join the ZC Pub chat channel today and talk about joining-áZebra corp, hands down the best PVP corp in EVE keeping CFC killboards in the green singlehandedly |
Heimdallofasgard
Apex Overplayed Coalition Nulli Legio
474
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:29:00 -
[224] - Quote
This change has come a bit out of the blue, is it part of preparing to make a dreadnought balancing swoop? I thought t2 subcaps were going to be the next ships given some love.
Anyway... people should realise that this change is ONLY happening to the guns and not the ships themselves, I think that this change should go some way to bringing the capital weapon systems more into line with each other.
People saying the blaster range reduction is going to cripple their moros should:
1. Consider bringing a different dread to a POS bash 2. Stop using them for PVE 3. Learn to use different ammo types. 4. Bring more utility for support.
Weapon systems aside though, I do think dreads need looking at quite soon, because outside of wormholes (where they are extremely useful in all their roles from PVP, PVE and POS bashing), dreads seem to be in the midst of an identity crisis for a number of reasons.
As POS bashers they stand second only to supercaps. As PVE boats, their usefulness in that last room in your 10/10, and in higher class wormholes is undeniable. In PVP, they're able to stand up against battleship fleets and turn the tide of a small skirmish in low-sec or the fringes of null...
The problem with dreads... is when it comes to their utility as cap hunters... this utility is greatly reduced by the amount of tank they can field (whilst still having reasonable DPS), their immobility, sig-radius, and also their susceptibility to counter dropping. When dreads are brought in to counter slow-cats for instance, they're almost always counter dropped with more supercaps.
Supercaps against dreads is one of the strongest and most pronounced hard counters in the game and this is why carrier based doctrines are so prevalent in EVE right now... slow-cats, boot-fleet, Ghost-riders, etc... no-one would dare drop dreads onto any of these fleet doctrines for fear of counter drop.
In my eyes, this fear, coupled with a lack of dread ability in the capital arena, is why big battleship fights don't turn into supercapital fights as often as we might like... there is no steady transition of escalating offence.
I've already said too much so...
tl;dr: Changes look good but please look at dreads soon and buff their effectiveness against other caps. London Fanfest Absentee Meet! |
GeeBee
Paragon Fury
21
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:31:00 -
[225] - Quote
RIP MOROS
Nerfing the few good things gallente has, Fozzie must be an amarr supremacist.
but seriously the numbers look pretty harsh for the ion blasters. Optimal range nerf and tracking, so now you have to be closer to a target with less tracking. Always thought the balance to the XL blasters was the platforms they're on are inferiorly tanked compared to the others Erebus VS Avatar and Moros VS Revelation.
Simply because the sandbox favors one toy over another does not mean it needs to be defecated on so the other toys become more popular, It would be a better idea to remove the defecation from the other toys so they're more liked.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
864
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:38:00 -
[226] - Quote
Enochia Starr wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:Enochia Starr wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Johnny thorir wrote:RIP moros It's still the best one tbh. Stop trying to fix things that are perfectly fine now.. Now you've just ruined lowsec fights, thanks m8. RIP EVE lol, not being able to own everything as reliably with dropping dreads ruins low sec pvp? Terrible. Says Shadow Cartel who uses blap dreads like they're going out of style Yep.
Yet none of us are claiming that their nerfing is the bane of low sec pvp ^^
Edit: Also EVERYONE in the entire eve universe accepts that the Moros was by FAR the best dread for anything not related to shooting structures for hours.. Yet somehow nerfing it is a bad thing? :P BYDI (Shadow cartel) Recruitment open!
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Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:39:00 -
[227] - Quote
GeeBee wrote:RIP MOROS
Nerfing the few good things gallente has, Fozzie must be an amarr supremacist.
but seriously the numbers look pretty harsh for the ion blasters. Optimal range nerf and tracking, so now you have to be closer to a target with less tracking. Always thought the balance to the XL blasters was the platforms they're on are inferiorly tanked compared to the others Erebus VS Avatar and Moros VS Revelation.
Simply because the sandbox favors one toy over another does not mean it needs to be defecated on so the other toys become more popular, It would be a better idea to remove the defecation from the other toys so they're more liked.
For being an Amarr supremacist, he sure doesn't seem to be showing it. A resistance nerf on the Abaddon, Archon, Aeon, Damnation, Absolution, and all other resistance bonused hulls. And the Revelation still has 30% less damage than the Moros and 15% less than the Naglfar. |
DRGaius Baltar
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:40:00 -
[228] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Johnny thorir wrote:RIP moros It's still the best one tbh.
-15% Tracking, DO you even play this game? |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:41:00 -
[229] - Quote
DRGaius Baltar wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Johnny thorir wrote:RIP moros It's still the best one tbh. -15% Tracking, DO you even play this game?
It's still not going to miss its intended targets. |
iskflakes
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:43:00 -
[230] - Quote
Fozzie, here are my issues:
1) Titans are not going to be looked at for another 8-16 years according to the schedule. By changing titan guns you are making a balance decision without considering the effect it will have on ships you aren't currently looking at. If you have looked at the state of titans recently you will see they don't need a nerf to tracking (there is no such thing as a tracking titan), or optimal.
2) You are bringing the capital guns into line with each other, nothing wrong with that, but you have chosen to balance around the lower tracking guns rather than the higher tracking -- effectively nerfing tracking on all capital guns. This makes the moros in particular very difficult to use for PVE, was this intended? If it was intended, why was it not mentioned as a motivation in the post?
3) The optimal on the moros with antimatter is now smaller than a POS shield. If their role is shooting structures this makes no sense.
4) The nag has better optimal than the moros, this is out of line with other autocannons.
I hope these changes are start of a larger capital rebalance, it's certainly very long overdue. - |
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Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:45:00 -
[231] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Fozzie, here are my issues:
1) Titans are not going to be looked at for another 8-16 years according to the schedule. By changing titan guns you are making a balance decision without considering the effect it will have on ships you aren't currently looking at. If you have looked at the state of titans recently you will see they don't need a nerf to tracking (there is no such thing as a tracking titan), or optimal.
2) You are bringing the capital guns into line with each other, nothing wrong with that, but you have chosen to balance around the lower tracking guns rather than the higher tracking -- effectively nerfing tracking on all capital guns. This makes the moros in particular very difficult to use for PVE, was this intended? If it was intended, why was it not mentioned as a motivation in the post?
3) The optimal on the moros with antimatter is now smaller than a POS shield. If their role is shooting structures this makes no sense.
4) The nag has better optimal than the moros, this is out of line with other autocannons.
I hope these changes are start of a larger capital rebalance, it's certainly very long overdue.
You'll still do more raw damage than either the Nag or the Rev on a pos shield, even with the nerf. Also, you have midslots and lowslots, and there's tracking enhancers and tracking computers if you're really that insecure about your damage output. |
iskflakes
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:49:00 -
[232] - Quote
Grarr Dexx wrote:You'll still do more raw damage than either the Nag or the Rev on a pos shield, even with the nerf. Also, you have midslots and lowslots, and there's tracking enhancers and tracking computers if you're really that insecure about your damage output.
Most fits don't have room for 4 tracking computers, and tracking enhancers are getting nerfed. Most of the time you will have to downgrade to the next ammo, which will half your DPS, making the other dreads more effective in practice.
Edit: Just run some numbers in EFT. With 4 tracking computers you can get an optimal of 15km, which means if you're at 0 on the bubble you will JUST be able to hit it. No amount of tracking mods will get you 20km optimal though, so if you're more than 1 or 2 km away from the shield (as you will be) you will be in falloff. - |
cklm
Deep Dream United
107
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:50:00 -
[233] - Quote
Shame on you CCP ! this may look like a signature... but it isn't |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
727
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 23:56:00 -
[234] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Grarr Dexx wrote:You'll still do more raw damage than either the Nag or the Rev on a pos shield, even with the nerf. Also, you have midslots and lowslots, and there's tracking enhancers and tracking computers if you're really that insecure about your damage output. Edit: Just run some numbers in EFT. With 4 tracking computers you can get an optimal of 15km, which means if you're at 0 on the bubble you will JUST be able to hit it. No amount of tracking mods will get you 20km optimal though, so if you're more than 1 or 2 km away from the shield (as you will be) you will be in falloff.
I'm pretty sure these numbers are wrong. In fact, I make it no change to DPS at 32 km with no tracking mods and antimatter, thanks to increased falloff.
Edit for maths:
Losing 10 km optimal and gaining 10 km falloff takes optimal from 33 km to 23 km, and falloff from 15 km to 25 km. Add skills - gives 28.75 km and 31.25 km. Add antimatter, gives 14.4 km optimal, 31.25 km falloff. |
Heimdallofasgard
Apex Overplayed Coalition Nulli Legio
474
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:07:00 -
[235] - Quote
tbh it was never the range that made the moros so freaking badass... it was its sheer damage output when you're sitting on top of another ship... tracking nerf might prove to be the real killer. |
iskflakes
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:18:00 -
[236] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Losing 10 km optimal and gaining 10 km falloff takes optimal from 33 km to 23 km, and falloff from 15 km to 25 km. Add skills - gives 28.75 km and 31.25 km. Add antimatter, gives 14.4 km optimal, 31.25 km falloff. Net result: no change to DPS at 31 km.
But this doesn't match Fozzie's statement of losing 3% DPS at 31 km with two TCs, so I dunno what's going on, lol.
Your maths is a little bit off. You have taken the current 21km optimal with antimatter and no tracking mods, used tracking mods to get it up to 33, then subtracted 10. To get the correct figure you need to start with 21, subtract 10, THEN apply the tracking mods (which brings you close to 15km).
At best tracking modules give about 1.5x the optimal. Currently that is 1.5 * 21 = 30 (roughly). After the changes it will be 1.5 * 11 = 15 (roughly). - |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
388
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:19:00 -
[237] - Quote
Nice changes !
It's only a start though, especially about the Phoenix. *AHEM !* G££ <= Me |
Jack Mancetti
Rennfeuer Curatores Veritatis Alliance
30
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:25:00 -
[238] - Quote
U can't hit a Super cap with a Naglfar with transversal over 40 ,thats include 2 Tracking Enhancer and 1 Tracking Comp !! After this nerf u will hit nothing what is moving around your Dread.
So what is the role from a dread now please . . . struc-bash nothing else,i dont think its realy ur target.
And btw CCP,please stopp this useless crap aka new Jumpanimation for Odysee,after 3 Jumps you'll get seasick and after 10 Jumps you're on the puke
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5116
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:38:00 -
[239] - Quote
Jack Mancetti wrote:U can't hit a Super cap with a Naglfar with transversal over 40 ,thats include 2 Tracking Enhancer and 1 Tracking Comp !!
Try fitting autocannons then. Also transversal means nothing with regards to turret mechanics. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
194
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:38:00 -
[240] - Quote
Lelob wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Lelob wrote:Ouch!
Nobody will be training for the minnie dread now. The whole point was that it would be excellent tracking but now why even bother. Will remain unused with such a heavy handed nerf. Nobody except all of PL. Work on your propaganda. Lelob wrote:The moros nerf is especially hard. I'd suggest an optimal nerf of -5 to -7km, while mantaining the falloff bonus, and not touching the tracking. The tracking IS the major problem on the Moros. The optimal and falloff were high for a "close range" weapon, but -5/+5 would have probably sufficed. Lelob wrote:Dreads and especially titans don't track for **** without tp's or webs unless shooting at bc's or drakes so I simply don't understand this nerf. These are not being over-used or abused and seem like they're fufilling a good niche to counter sub-caps. This simply takes another tool out of the hand to counter massive bs or bc blobs with such a heavy-handed nerf. Imagine this: Titans and Dreads, being capitals, are supported by a smaller, more agile fleet. Not a fleet of capitals, mind you. Perhaps a fleet of sub-capitals. Ships that support the big one in doing its job. Not everyone drops 50 Supers on frig, or thinks "Hey we have a fleet of subcaps to kill here....get the Titans spooled up." #PLProblems Blasters NEED the increased range to even have a hope of doing dps. It's why hybrids had to be so heavily buffed in the first place because "close-range" guns in the past were "**** that" guns. The reality is that the moros desperately needs the range to be able to use antimatter XL. The russian guy was right in saying that these changes are stupid because nobody will want to use antimatter XL anymore, which is pretty well what made the moros worth flying. Also LOL, caps are only good vs caps? What kind of ******* ******** idea is that. All that does is force people into huge blobby coalitions, which having been one for the last 6-9 months, I do not want to have to do that again. People need force multipliers against blobs, and there's only so much flying in bombers until it gets very, very dull. I'm sensing a bit of a reality disconnect here. I think perhaps that maybe CCP doesn't want you to project dps with Antimatter XL. They don't like the Moros' crazy damage projection. Why? It's a close range ammo, which for blasters, means extremely close range. Moros dps was out of control at longer ranges. Moros can project meaningful damage out to 100km with blasters. It's not perfect, obviously, but it's not terrible, either. With blasters. "Close range" turrets. It seems like you're asking for keeping the tracking the same with the range element. Where, then, is this reigning the Moros back in line with the others? It really just seems like you want to keep the current, overpowered version of the flavor of the month, and you're sad that it's changing. I don't blame you. I'm sad the Moros is changing, too, but I understand why it has to happen. :)
Also, read your PL manual again: you send *your* bombers out.....you're not actually supposed to fly in one. That's what the EVR pilots do. :P
#PLproblems |
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