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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I know it is a bit of both. But which is more important to you?
Movies have been kind of hamstrung as art because of the investment formula "give people what they want and more will come." Automobiles are limited by standards set on them by various agencies. And food while it can certainly be artistic and wonderful is not typically something we engage in to transcend previous limits, far better to have just a good meal with friends. These are all examples of very artistic products.
To me true art pushes boundaries, it makes me look at the world in different ways. I don't look for uniformity or an expected performance. I want art to challenge my ideas about the world.
The ruins of Rome do this in that I can't believe that humans could do that without modern tools.
Rebrandt's characters and his visions of them make me marvel at the greatness that ordinary people can posses.
And John Steinbeck just hurts to read as you see what horrible wickedness can exist as part and parcel of sublime goodness.
This kind of art did not have standards, it exists on its own merit and because it allows us to see something that is completely new and different.
So, when you log into Eve are you looking for an artistic experience? Or is a product that you use and have expectations for. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
743
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
7th art is cinema and is also a product.
Eve is Art and a product, can't be dissociated. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
1820
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
First it's a candy... then it's gum.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
492
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:7th art is cinema and is also a product.
Eve is Art and a product, can't be dissociated.
-áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1773
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 19:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
EVE is a service. And considering who's being kept inside by it, it's a public service at that. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
3919
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:11:00 -
[6] - Quote
Eve is a drug. Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
Danni stark
296
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 20:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
due to how zoomed out i am most of the time, if it is art it's a completely wasted effort. Ice Mining Skill Plan. |
EmmaFromMarketing
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
20
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Posted - 2013.05.17 20:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
I wouldn't call using Excel an artistic experience but YMMV. |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
810
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Posted - 2013.05.17 20:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Its a product.
yk |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Smegnet Corp
4060
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 21:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
Danni stark wrote:due to how zoomed out i am most of the time, if it is art it's a completely wasted effort.
Why play zoomed out? |
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Khergit Deserters
1109
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Posted - 2013.05.17 21:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'd say computer game design in general is an art form. (I'm talking about the idea of the game and how it's designed to work. Not the necessarily the graphics or music/sound design). Maybe not a fine art, like painting, sculpture, or literature. More like an applied art, like architecture or auto body design.
Maybe a good analogy to computer games is comic books. Comic books are produced as entertainment (commercial) products. But if the content is no good, they'll fail to sell. For the content to be any good, some inspiration, good artistic decisions, and good design and execution of the visual imagery is needed.
fine art n 1. art produced chiefly for its aesthetic value, as opposed to applied art
applied art n 1. any type of art done with a practical application; the application of design and aesthetics to objects of function and everyday use |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
462
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Art is a product itself, whether or not you consider it an object (the piece itself) or a service (the museum that shows it). There is a market for art, and a demand for art. One could even state that art is a luxury product, as many cannot afford to own or view art let alone appreciate it because your country is being bombed to pieces all the effin' time.
As a product and/or service I wouldnt call Eve art, and I wouldn't be looking for an 'artistic' expression in it apart from stunning visuals, no matter how cheap the bloom effect is. That is to say I do enjoy it's easthetics, but for me it's more about the explosions. OK, I'll admit to Eve being art if you will admit Michael Bay is an artist too. And then we'll debate on how wrong that is, probably forever.
For me it's more about an interconnectivity and simulation simply not found in other online games. That Eve makes me connected to all these people in a very real way deserves some praise, most certainly. But is it art? I'm an 80's kid, to me it's more or less amazing social technology. Being a webdeveloper does kill some of the romance by now though. |
Shadow Lord77
Shadow Industries I
286
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 00:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well considering Eve has been inducted into the Museum of Modern Art I would assume that it is art. So in terms of chronological events if you assume that it became art once it became an art piece in a museum that first Eve was an idea, then it was a video game, and now it's art! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
5117
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 05:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
EVE is more likely to be an autistic experience than an artistic one. -áMy (mostly boring) Youtube channel. |
Tank Talbot
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
174
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 05:04:00 -
[15] - Quote
We live in an age where anything can be called art depending on how it makes you feel. Rub paint on your feet, run back and forth across a canvas. Then? Wallah! You've a piece of modern art for that gallery down the road. So if appreciating EVE makes you feel sophisticated, contemplative, and appreciative in the endeavor then I guess it's art to you. |
Nimrod vanHall
Martyr's Vengence Test Alliance Please Ignore
18
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 05:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Shadow Lord77 wrote:Well considering Eve has been inducted into the Museum of Modern Art I would assume that it is art. So in terms of chronological events if you assume that it became art once it became an art piece in a museum that first Eve was an idea, then it was a video game, and now it's art! Human beeings and their fruit of labour have been the subject of many paintings, sculptures, pictures et al. Ergo the human race and all its producs are art. If all is unique nothing is unique. If all is art nothing is art.
The subject of art is not to be confused with art itself. |
Barbelo Valentinian
Justified Chaos
354
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote: So, when you log into Eve are you looking for an artistic experience? Or is a product that you use and have expectations for.
I think the art side is more important to me - I want to feel like I'm there, I love that immersion, and for immersion EVE is (or can be, at its best) a work of art.
|
Malak Dawnfire
The Scope Gallente Federation
142
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:33:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:Danni stark wrote:due to how zoomed out i am most of the time, if it is art it's a completely wasted effort. Why play zoomed out?
Fleet battles? |
Jarod Garamonde
Action Bastards
162
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:I know it is a bit of both. But which is more important to you?
Movies have been kind of hamstrung as art because of the investment formula "give people what they want and more will come." Automobiles are limited by standards set on them by various agencies. And food while it can certainly be artistic and wonderful is not typically something we engage in to transcend previous limits, far better to have just a good meal with friends. These are all examples of very artistic products.
To me true art pushes boundaries, it makes me look at the world in different ways. I don't look for uniformity or an expected performance. I want art to challenge my ideas about the world.
The ruins of Rome do this in that I can't believe that humans could do that without modern tools.
Rebrandt's characters and his visions of them make me marvel at the greatness that ordinary people can posses.
And John Steinbeck just hurts to read as you see what horrible wickedness can exist as part and parcel of sublime goodness.
This kind of art did not have standards, it exists on its own merit and because it allows us to see something that is completely new and different.
So, when you log into Eve are you looking for an artistic experience? Or is a product that you use and have expectations for.
If you don't have at least 1000 more "likes" from this post, alone, by the time I pour my first irish coffee, and log on, in the morning, there is something terribly wrong with this playerbase, and we bittervets and our revered "ancient ones" need to come together and discuss how we're to go about fixing it. "you can identify eve players by looking at their cars. Since they don't drive what they can't afford to lose."-á --áBienator II |
Julius Rigel
94
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 06:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Raymond Joseph Teller wrote:Art is anything we do after the chores are done. Do YOU like to undock? |
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
498
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 18:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
This is a response to Shau Huang on another thread that our conversation split off from. here is a link to Shau's opening post https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3046035#post3046035
Shau,
In his book GÇ£The Eternal Golden BraidGÇ¥ Doug Hofstadter makes the argument that thought and experience come from interaction with artificial systems. He compares the works of Kurt Godel, J.S.Bach, and M.C.Escher, and points out that they are in fact artificial systems of reasoning that create emotive reactions.
Games are enclosed by a border between the RW and the artificial, this is referred to as GÇ£The Magic CircleGÇ¥ This border is created by the game pieces, the phsical location at which the game is taking place, the act of the players gathering and beginning the game, etc. It can be very well defined and developed, thereby leading to what some may call GÇ£ImmersionGÇ¥. In many cases there can be an emotional response to the game, this is referred to as GÇ£bleedGÇ¥. Games with well developed magic circles have more bleed than others.
The circle is buffered by creating strongly regulated interfaces for the players. In this way emotional bleed can be controlled. The GÇ£XGÇ¥ or GÇÿOGÇ¥ in a tic tac toe game is a very rigid interface that players have little trouble disassociating with, hence there is little bleed from a game of Tic Tac Toe. A character within an MMO is a very versatile game piece that can create/allow more emotional bleed.
If a person goes to the market to buy some fruit they are enacting a sort of ritual that they have likely gone through before; they prepare themselves and travel to the market, meet with the vendor and discuss pricing, package their goods and return home. This process is very similar to the way that magic circles are created in games.
Lets suppose this person gets home and instead and finds that the grocer sent home an order that is different from what the person expected. Many people will have an emotional reaction to this, they will blame the grocer and be angry etc. From a survival standpoint it may be just as efficient to go back and explain to the grocer his error, he will most likely refund the money and pack the correct order. The emotional response is not necessary or in many cases even desirable to resolving the error.
So why do we experience it? I wonder if the pattern of creating the magic circle and interacting with it is itself the origin of emotional response. Rather than the idea that the game mimics reality and so elicits some extrinsic response mechanism.
In this model the emotional reaction to what we want or need can be the same. Practical application of this knowledge can be seen in all marketing, from the sidewalk fruit vendor to multinational corporations.
Marketing involves creating a magic circle, and allowing people to interact with the circle using a very weak interface, in this case themselves. This strong magic circle combined with a weakly buffered interface creates the opportunity for strong emotional bleed. The goal of marketing and sales is of course to make this a positive emotion. However in the case of customer dissatisfaction there can be a very strong negative reaction.
It is true, as you say, that remembering ones own choices are an emancipatory act. However I think that it is not absolutely effective in eliminating the emotional response. It is armor against bleed through, perhaps the fact that it strengthens the game interface and so our ability to disassociate with the game world is how that works.
You personally seem to have little to no emotional reaction to the game. Perhaps that is because in GÇ£Laying it all outGÇ¥ you have effectively limited the ability of the magic circle to function as such. For myself I consciously GÇ£invokeGÇ¥ the magic circle and use a strong interface to interact with the game in order to limit bleed. This does not eliminate it entirely as that is one of the things that I am here to experience.
Do you feel emotion outside of the game? In those instances is there a system or procedure that could be creating a magic circle in the real world? -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Murk Paradox
Red Tsunami Moon Warriors
344
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 19:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Corey Fumimasa wrote:I know it is a bit of both. But which is more important to you?
Movies have been kind of hamstrung as art because of the investment formula "give people what they want and more will come." Automobiles are limited by standards set on them by various agencies. And food while it can certainly be artistic and wonderful is not typically something we engage in to transcend previous limits, far better to have just a good meal with friends. These are all examples of very artistic products.
To me true art pushes boundaries, it makes me look at the world in different ways. I don't look for uniformity or an expected performance. I want art to challenge my ideas about the world.
The ruins of Rome do this in that I can't believe that humans could do that without modern tools.
Rebrandt's characters and his visions of them make me marvel at the greatness that ordinary people can posses.
And John Steinbeck just hurts to read as you see what horrible wickedness can exist as part and parcel of sublime goodness.
This kind of art did not have standards, it exists on its own merit and because it allows us to see something that is completely new and different.
So, when you log into Eve are you looking for an artistic experience? Or is a product that you use and have expectations for.
The latter. The better artwork is definitely a plus. But first and foremost I play Eve to pilot a spaceship and do all the cool ewar/cloaky things (and pi stuff) that most combat oriented games do not allow.
If the graphics were subpar, I'd still play.
If the gameplay was subpar but the graphics were stellar, I wouldn't play. "I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á -TheGunslinger42 Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url]-á for details. |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
221
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 21:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Gadmooks! I am not familiar with the model and will look into it. Prior to that I wonder if we could speak across models knowing that we are doing that?
First in response to your questions about my game play. Are you kidding!?! I am on a roller coaster. Similarly in life. If I say however that I am not my emotions, it can be hard to understand this does not mean I am dissociated. Quite the reverse. I am also not my thoughts, despite the villainous Cartesian model we have come to unquestionably accept. The nature of conditional reality is that it is always changing and radically impermanent. Stupendously, amazingly, horrifically in the midst of all that, and at some level a constant awareness of that we can love, laugh, cry, feel, think, etc. The apparent collision of love and impermanance is the one that really messes us up the most, it seems to me.
This relates to the question you pose and the 'golden circle' model you offer. I feel we could consider the graphics artistic and even relate to them as art. We could imagine some art involved in any aspect of the production of the 'game'. For me, I feel the art in something like EVE is more like sand painting and arises from the lived interaction with the game, in all its aspects, most importantly perhaps what might be considered social interaction between players, in all its forms. I think this may be consistent with what you are suggesting.
I think of things in a way that I feel maps to the model you have offered, but I cannot tell. I will say how I translate your model such that it makes sense for me, if I can. I have read the various 'authors', but not that book.
I translate interface to structure. The golden circle is for me context or container. It may or may not be isomorphic with identity. It informs the possible quality and domain of formal emergence, in the best cases without prescribing specificity of form. In this way it is also the domain in which meaning is discovered, generated, ect. Remove the 'constraint' of the golden circle and strucutres associated with any particular expression of that and meaning dissipates. The emotional experience associated with that specific context is no longer available in the same way.
In this for me I distinguish between rules and structure. As a metaphor, imagine a room. It has one door. In most cases you will enter and leave the room by that door. You can do so freely. This is a way of understanding structural determinism. You are not forced by the structure, but your behavior is influenced by it. There is a kind of structural coupling involved based on an ongoing re-presentation of phenomena. If you get that wrong you walk into a wall. If there is a fire you might use the window, etc.
Now let's fill the room with people. Let's make it a classroom. There is a lecture taking place. For some people it is interesting in and of itself. It has intrinsic value to them in some way. In the experience of a completely unconstrained setting they would chose to be there. They might even create the necessary models, containers and structure for this to happen. Let's say for some other people, in the same structural conditions the lecture just sucks. Why are they still here? Presumably the door still works! This indicates the presence of rules. These rules can masquerade as structure. Are they instrinsic or extrinsic? How are they experienced? A common state conditioning rules, such that they occur as extrinsic is fear. Usually this is associated with some assertion of and attachment to something else as 'necessary' in some way. Greed, desire and such can be understood in this context. If I leave I will get a bad grade. Why do I care? Because I believe my grade in this class is directly related to how much money I will make when I am thirty. I have some sense of a contract someplace, with my parents maybe, the violation of which is presumed to have negative consequences, etc., etc., etc. it can be quite complex. Traditionally, you really press into all this and you encounter the relationship to suffering, impermanence and death.
In my view, the best games bring us into direct contact with all of this. EVE is particularly good at it, hence we see the constant presence of all the stages of death and dying... You know... Denial, shock, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance and even transcendence or transformation. Why is EVE good at this? It has a good amount of structure, but very few rules. We thus come into contact with the rule set we are carrying around in our heads, hearts, bodies. Normally we imagine that this rule set is simply the truth. Most participation in EVE seems at some point to cause the player to question that.
So imagine that in EVE you have people who are participating in something they understand at some level as aesthetic. This includes, but is not limited to 'fun'. They are playing in relationship to something they experience as intrinsically generated, though the immediacy of that may vary when they are having to participate in secondary and tertiary activities that they feel enable that.
Equally imagine that you have people who are operating on extrinsic values, as they understand them. Often these occur for them not as chosen, but as self existing, absolute and immutable.
Of course it is not as black and white as this and it is sometimes one way for us and sometimes another.
The robust structure of EVE, combined with the relatively limited presence of prescriptive rules allows both sorts of populations to thrive. Now, put these two sorts of population in close proximity to one another, in a sort of interdependent relationship! The art arises (and goes out of existence) in the moments of that interaction. Emergent.
There might be more to say about the relationship between identity and the 'golden circle' and the nature of existential crisis in all this, but I will stop for now. Private sig. Do not read. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 21:59:00 -
[24] - Quote
Where games are concerned art is important but not as important as game play.
If you have good graphics and poor game play you will soon get bored with it. However if you have good game play and not so good graphics (they have to be reasonable at least) then the games can still be entertaining.
So game play first and graphics second.
Better of course if both are good. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
276
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:EVE is more likely to be an autistic experience than an artistic one. Well, according to some quite influential people in the world of modern art....
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:EVE is more likely to be an autistic experience than an artistic one. Well, according to some quite influential people in the world of modern art....
Modern art can be a bit of a joke.
Some of it's not much better than 2 house bricks stood on end with a jam doughnut bridging the gap. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
498
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:27:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shau, I heve read through your post quickly. I have RL to attend to and some things that I want to verify before I reply. Prolly within the next 12 hours.
In the mean time this is a friend of mine on Youtube who has a great series about these concepts and how they relate to gaming. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAr85xoS6Zc
Also, welocme 666, and ISD Ezwal. -áKick ass soundtrack and Eve Pewpew http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvc4KljpRGI |
Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8288
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Six Six Six wrote:ISD Ezwal wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:EVE is more likely to be an autistic experience than an artistic one. Well, according to some quite influential people in the world of modern art.... Modern art can be a bit of a joke. Some of it's not much better than 2 house bricks stood on end with a jam doughnut bridging the gap. Some galleries would display a sack of poo tied in the middle if the "artist" could come up with some semi coherent twaddle about what it symbolises. A war hasn't been fought this badly since Olaf the Hairy, High Chief of all the Vikings, accidentally ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside. |
Radius Prime
Tax Evading Ass.
67
|
Posted - 2013.05.18 23:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
It's a product. The terms art, genius & epic are used far too often and too lightly these days. We will soon be looking for new superlatives to replace these words if we don't stop using them so frequently. Do them right.
Everything handmade is called art, whatever is different must be genius, results of a century of mass production. This is done while these words are meant to characterize something truly exceptional. Reopen the EVE gate so we can invade Serenity. Goons can go first. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
68
|
Posted - 2013.05.19 00:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Radius Prime wrote:It's a product. The terms art, genius & epic are used far too often and too lightly these days. We will soon be looking for new superlatives to replace these words if we don't stop using them so frequently. Do them right.
Everything handmade is called art, whatever is different must be genius, results of a century of mass production. This is done while these words are meant to characterize something truly exceptional.
The way I look at it is:
EVE is a product that contains art work, but EVE as a whole is not art. |
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