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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
581
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Here's the thing. A couple of weeks ago CCP Hillmar released a letter to the Eve community where he took personal responsibility for the mistakes and mismanagement that have led to the alienation of large sections of the community and dropping subscriptions. He accepted the burden of blame for the bad decisions, for the poor investments, for the underfunding and scant resourcing core Eve Online has received over the :18 months: to Incarna period and apologized to this community.
Fine.
But then 20% of ordinary employees and working staff have just paid for that apology. Senior management made the errors. Working people take the hit.
Thats not fine.
Now I think we can all understand that these job-cuts were a neccessary part of a refinancing deal forced upon CCP by their investors and due loan payments. World of Darkness was a financial disaster, Dust 514 is a millstone. The intrusion of MT/NeX into Eve advocated by games industry sheep and the credulous greed-is-good executives at the cost of honest subs, a fiasco of epic proportions.
Hillmar's hands are definitely tied. He has been ordered to make these cuts as a the price of CCP's continued existence. But an honourable man might well consider falling on his sword at this point.
At some stage leaders must take responsibility for the fate of their followers and the CEO of a company is where the buck stops. A significant problem with the global economy in general at the moment is a generation of suits and money men who evade and wriggle and squirm to remove themselves from any consequence for the disasters they cause with their greed and delusionary lack of foresight and I have to admit I kind of hoped for more backbone from the leader of a Viking company.
So do we think Hillmar should resign? Hillmar do you think you should resign?
For the good of Eve Online, your employees, the community, the game itself and the vision I hope you still believe in. Would it be for the best if you did take the ultimate responsibility for the mistakes you freely admit and shoulder the burden of failure by passing the torch for Eve's renewal to somebody else untainted by recent fiascos and scandals?
Does CCP need new leadership from the ranks so we can have a little genuine faith that the company will listen to and value its subscriber base more in the future?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Luh Windan
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.20 09:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
If Hillmar goes he will be replaced by someone that the investors/money wants.
so it will be what you characterise as "games industry sheep" all the way
Whatever the guy has done wrong of late it was his vision that got us Eve in the first place.
Failing companies, and having to lay off 20% of your staff puts in you firmly in that category, do not do grand vision and risk without also having a leader with a vision. Hillmar may be able to get back to the good things that started all this - his replacement won't even be trying |
Zatark
Adraki Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hillmar screwed up, he owned up for it. He promised to deliver changes and to listen to the community.
Now is the chance for him to keep to his word and make things right. If he fails to deliver then yeah ... time to start making noise for him to step down.
Until then, his future as CEO rests on his soldiers and his actions over the next 6-12 months. |
Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
118
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Posted - 2011.10.20 09:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
If the owners of CCP think he is doing a fine job who are we to object?
If Hilmar resigns and gets replaced by some "industry professional" the players will only rage harder.
My impression is that CCP was run like a small indy studio for way too long - even when it had become a 600man multinational corporation.
Now that Hilmar seems to move away from the "Icelandic band of cronies running an awesome startup in fearless fashion" style of doing business towards a more risk-conscious, more "corporate" approach to management you want to get rid off him...
CCP needs a cultural transformation and I doubt that an outsider would be able to achieve this without killing the company - too many deeply ingrained structures, ideas and connections that he would have to be aware of. Too little legitimacy in the eyes of the employees to be able to push for painful changes, too big danger of trying to make a "clean" break with the old CCP and estranging/scaring away its employees in the process.
If CCP would go through management changes (or restructurings) every few years and had demonstrated the necessary flexibility and competency in change management I would say "sure go ahead and fire Hilmar". But as far as I am aware it hasn't. |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
326
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Luh Windan wrote:If Hillmar goes he will be replaced by someone that the investors/money wants.
so it will be what you characterise as "games industry sheep" all the way
Whatever the guy has done wrong of late it was his vision that got us Eve in the first place.
Failing companies, and having to lay off 20% of your staff puts in you firmly in that category, do not do grand vision and risk without also having a leader with a vision. Hillmar may be able to get back to the good things that started all this - his replacement won't even be trying
Unfortunately, this is how the world works.
If Hilmar left, we'd almost certainly get someone who had a hand in ruining Sony or Cryptic running the show. Or CCP Soundwave.
At least Hilmar knows how Eve works, and I have a suspicion that at least some of the decisions that were officially made by him were actually the result of pressure from investors. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori. |
Klandi
Consortium of stella Technologies
9
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Posted - 2011.10.20 09:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jade - a couple of things
How do we know that Hilmar doesn't own IP and if he goes - so does Eve?
What funding and extent of loans have VCs put into the company and are they demanding repayment. That doesn't normally happen.
What percentage of the company is owned by VCs and/or other investors.
Every cause has an effect and every consequence has a associated responsibility. Hilmar leaving would accomplish what?
Before we start targeting statues in jita (an analogy for a futile act that doesn't accomplish much) we need to sit back and consider our actions, for we helped make this situation where good people have lost their jobs.
Chinese proverb - be careful what you wish for - you could get it. |
Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
118
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Klandi wrote:What percentage of the company is owned by VCs and/or other investors. at least two-thirds.
Here's an old post of mine breaking down the numbers
http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?3534-Status-of-emergency-summit-minutes&p=203772&viewfull=1#post203772 |
DeBingJos
T.R.I.A.D
110
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Posted - 2011.10.20 09:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
While I'm no fan of Hilmar, I don't think his departure would do EVE any good.
Sad things have happened, lets put them behind us and move forward to a better EVE. Fix FW ! |
Signal11th
140
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 09:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
As far as I know CCP is a privately owned company so it basically doesn't matter what we think or say it's up to the people who actually own the company which could be part owned by Hilmar himself you never know.
You/we are customers if you're not happy then vote with your wallet.
I have a funny feeling that because CCP in the past have let us have some sort of emotional attachment and slight insider access to this "product" we seem to feel we have a right to say how a privately owned company is run?
Tomorrow in Iceland a syndicate of CCP employees could win their version of a lottery and all of the staff could walk out to enjoy their winnings of 6 cows 4 sheep 200 crates of lager and a tour round Bjork's flat in downtown Rek or the owners could just plull th e plug on the whole thing and say it's finished.
God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
658
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
Let's see how the winter expansion turns out.
If it brings us what we need, then fine. At the end of the day, I play EVE and I'm not a CCP shareholder; my personal concern with how CCP is run and who the CEO begins and ends with how it affects a video game I play. It hardly needs restating that if the Winter expansion is a bust, then that's going to be pretty much it for EVE. In which case I don't really care if CCP is lead by Hilmar or Warren Buffet or Bozo the Clown. (And Fallout, Zymurgist, et al would be losing their jobs anyway)
Contrariwise, if the winter expansion ~delivers~ then, whilst I personally may think it sucks that CCP Management have let go some of my favourite CCP persons, then at the end of the day I'll suck it up and keep on logging in. In my ideal world, Fallout wouldn't have been made redundant, but that won't stop me playing EVE if the game is repaired and maintained.
I've been made redundant twice in my working life and it's not a pleasant process. But these days, well... it happens. Even if you are a good worker, and you have delivered exemplary results and did nothing wrong, you can still get hit by the pink slip. It's fact of life that there are no "jobs for life" these days, and even in these uncertain times, most employers will tell you that they're still looking out for really good employees (as opposed to do-the-minimum chairwarmers). Fallout & co are most likely feeling sad and hurt and confused right now. In a few months, they'll be over it, engaged in new projects, talking to new communities.
And we - I hope - will be discussing the summer '11 expansion. Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Things to do in EVE:-áhttp://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/ |
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Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
118
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Posted - 2011.10.20 10:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:As far as I know CCP is a privately owned company so it basically doesn't matter what we think or say it's up to the people who actually own the company which could be part owned by Hilmar himself you never know. we do know.
Even private companies (usually only those above a certain size) have to submit yearly financial statements (which we have access to) due to government regulations and CCP did release much more comprehensive information when they issued bonds in 2008.
Hilmar did own 2.82% of CCP in 2008, today that's probably closer to 2.5% (but we don't know for sure). |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
582
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:10:00 -
[12] - Quote
I am interested in the discussion here (hence all the question marks in the op. Please keep it coming!
Signal11th wrote:As far as I know CCP is a privately owned company so it basically doesn't matter what we think or say it's up to the people who actually own the company which could be part owned by Hilmar himself you never know. You/we are customers if you're not happy then vote with your wallet.
Which of course is what the player base has been doing all summer and led directly to this situation. But its a little naive to say that the people who ultimately pay a company's wages have "no say" - by refusing to support a product we have the power to end it. Hence the basis for negotiation and discussion.
Quote:I have a funny feeling that because CCP in the past have let us have some sort of emotional attachment and slight insider access to this "product" we seem to feel we have a right to say how a privately owned company is run?
CCP didn't promote this from the goodness of their heart - they knew it would build loyalty and investment from the player base which is absolutely neccessary for an MMO to reach 8 years old! And this emotional attachment pays (paid?) dividents for CCP. The pure number of players that kept subs running while relatively innactive because they liked the company and game universe and wanted to come back one day was immense. What I'm saying to you is this is not a case of charity from a developer to its players - its a valid business strategy deployed in making a subscriber base feel invested in a game.
Quote:Tomorrow in Iceland a syndicate of CCP employees could win their version of a lottery and all of the staff could walk out to enjoy their winnings of 6 cows 4 sheep 200 crates of lager and a tour round Bjork's flat in downtown Rek or the owners could just plull th e plug on the whole thing and say it's finished.
Sure, but do they want to do it ? Its an important question. This game flourished and survived so long on the idealism and dreams of its developers AND player base united in this game universe. If its all boiled down to nothing but cash and yawns between shifts then what does Eve really have that other games do not?
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
AdZc
Legio Prima Victrix Imperius Legio Victrix
1
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Posted - 2011.10.20 10:11:00 -
[13] - Quote
I thought this game was about internet spaceships? Not about staff being laid off? |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
582
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
AdZc wrote:I thought this game was about internet spaceships? Not about staff being laid off?
Eve is Real.
(apparently)
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
Taint
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
1. Stop posting you are bad at it. 2. You didn't se Bill gates step down after they released Vista did you ? |
Ti Lasa
RED DUST OPS
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
I have played EVE for a long time now. There are many things that I feel are not an improvement and would manage a different way if given the chance. In all these years I have not forgotten the miracle of the original game, it is not just the result of random technological efforts. To every ship there is a captain and the fate of all rests on the choices that that they make. As a player I remain loyal to the CEO and the entire team that have given me so many hours of fun. I am a business owner and I am not young, my opinions reflect real life experience. Loyalty keeps the game alive and fun, if we fail to support those that have served us in the past we will have an uncertain future. I personally hate to see a game become a cash cow just for milking, this seems to be the fate of many. It is easy to make a bad choice any time money is involved, everyone is prone to make a few. The real question is will CCP really find a better way to manage the game. There is the effect of global money stresses as well, they are testing many ventures. Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson, CEO if you are listening and reading then I hope you read this. If you go I will go and not return to EVE or Dust 514. However consider this" A wise man in known by his many counselors" I hope you will find the people around you that have supported you and listen to them and not just $$$. It would be bad if the dream was lost ,I am having fun being a clone and having eternal life. It might even be a good idea to read some ancient texts such as Sun Tzu, Lao Tzu, Plato, etc.... just for a new perspective. The money issues seem to cloud the view. CCP has always had a rather closed ear policy to players and treated us like squeaking wheels.In this way a bad King views the peasants. But if you open your ears and eyes the answers you are looking for are in front of you , working with you every day. We the game players have built EVE we are the story. Each person good and bad has added a flavor to the game. I salute you and follow you to our fate. Lead well Captain. Ti Lasa |
Signal11th
140
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote:I am interested in the discussion here (hence all the question marks in the op. Please keep it coming! Signal11th wrote:As far as I know CCP is a privately owned company so it basically doesn't matter what we think or say it's up to the people who actually own the company which could be part owned by Hilmar himself you never know. You/we are customers if you're not happy then vote with your wallet. Which of course is what the player base has been doing all summer and led directly to this situation. But its a little naive to say that the people who ultimately pay a company's wages have "no say" - by refusing to support a product we have the power to end it. Hence the basis for negotiation and discussion. Quote:I have a funny feeling that because CCP in the past have let us have some sort of emotional attachment and slight insider access to this "product" we seem to feel we have a right to say how a privately owned company is run? CCP didn't promote this from the goodness of their heart - they knew it would build loyalty and investment from the player base which is absolutely neccessary for an MMO to reach 8 years old! And this emotional attachment pays (paid?) dividents for CCP. The pure number of players that kept subs running while relatively innactive because they liked the company and game universe and wanted to come back one day was immense. What I'm saying to you is this is not a case of charity from a developer to its players - its a valid business strategy deployed in making a subscriber base feel invested in a game. Quote:Tomorrow in Iceland a syndicate of CCP employees could win their version of a lottery and all of the staff could walk out to enjoy their winnings of 6 cows 4 sheep 200 crates of lager and a tour round Bjork's flat in downtown Rek or the owners could just plull th e plug on the whole thing and say it's finished. Sure, but do they want to do it ? Its an important question. This game flourished and survived so long on the idealism and dreams of its developers AND player base united in this game universe. If its all boiled down to nothing but cash and yawns between shifts then what does Eve really have that other games do not?
To be honest EVE doesn't really have anything different from any other MMO, it trades on its past of being a a small friendly customer based game, but since the big boys have shown up which direction has EVE gone up or down? from the amount of constant complaints and moaning I'd say down.
That's not to say the game isn't great because for me personally it's a fantastic game and I love it but I'm not going to get sucked into the years old belief that when it comes to cold hard cash I'm going to matter to CCP.
Like in every company bottom line affects change, as customers we only affect change by hurting the bottom line of the company. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Florestan Bronstein
The Waterworks
118
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Taint wrote:2. You didn't se Bill gates step down after they released Vista did you ? Bill Gates had already stepped down as MS CEO in early 2000.
Can't quit the same job twice. |
Forum Bug
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:23:00 -
[19] - Quote
Should he go, depends on the path eve now takes, my worst fears now maybe the only way that eve gets saved. If we understand that business is more important than the way we feel about eve then really Hillmar now has to push for his vision.
That vision is a massive dumbing down of the sandbox, Nex store to be fully implemented and possibly move to a free to play model. Dumb down PVP (except maybe 0.0) to consensual and work heavily on pve content to get the new players in. This will mean a rethink about the skill systems.
Of course what we have left is not eve, but it might make financial sense.
its not a vison i like but its one i can see hapening, and it may even turn the game around..
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
582
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ti Lasa wrote:I have played EVE for a long time now. There are many things that I feel are not an improvement and would manage a different way if given the chance. In all these years I have not forgotten the miracle of the original game, it is not just the result of random technological efforts. To every ship there is a captain and the fate of all rests on the choices that that they make. As a player I remain loyal to the CEO and the entire team that have given me so many hours of fun. I am a business owner and I am not young, my opinions reflect real life experience. Loyalty keeps the game alive and fun, if we fail to support those that have served us in the past we will have an uncertain future. I personally hate to see a game become a cash cow just for milking, this seems to be the fate of many. It is easy to make a bad choice any time money is involved, everyone is prone to make a few. The real question is will CCP really find a better way to manage the game. There is the effect of global money stresses as well, they are testing many ventures. Hilmar Veigar P+¬tursson, CEO if you are listening and reading then I hope you read this. If you go I will go and not return to EVE or Dust 514. However consider this" A wise man in known by his many counselors" I hope you will find the people around you that have supported you and listen to them and not just $$$. It would be bad if the dream was lost ,I am having fun being a clone and having eternal life. It might even be a good idea to read some ancient texts such as Sun Tzu, Lao Tzu, Plato, etc.... just for a new perspective. The money issues seem to cloud the view. CCP has always had a rather closed ear policy to players and treated us like squeaking wheels.In this way a bad King views the peasants. But if you open your ears and eyes the answers you are looking for are in front of you , working with you every day. We the game players have built EVE we are the story. Each person good and bad has added a flavor to the game. I salute you and follow you to our fate. Lead well Captain. Ti Lasa
Good post and I understand your point of view. Thanks for taking the time to respond Ti Lasa.
The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom. Jericho Fraction is Recruiting! |
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Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
194
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Taint wrote:1. Stop posting you are bad at it. 2. You didn't se Bill gates step down after they released Vista did you ?
You do know that Bill Gates resigned as CEO of Microsoft in 2000. Vista was released in 2006-2007. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
124
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:30:00 -
[22] - Quote
People make mistakes, Hillmarr has recognised his and remedied them.
I think that EVE and CCP have made many drastic and needed changes in the past couple of weeks.
Let these changes pan out, theres no need to hound the guy now that everything is rolling in the right direction. |
Jayem See
Drama Llamas
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:32:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jade Constantine wrote: Lots of stuff (no offense - just avoiding massive quotes)
I agree with a lot of your posts - some/most of the time. This one not so much.
I just have an awful feeling that if Hilmar goes then he would be replaced by something worse.
My absolute feeling about all this is that "yet again" (e.g. banks/investors/idiots) have screwed up something beautiful.
When things get to big, start making money, evolve; the money makers get involved - like everything else they touch it turns to shite. People forget their vision when big (hats) $$$ get involved.
It makes me sad but unfortunately capitalism makes it so.
So my guess is that Eve was doomed by it's own success - can that be turned around? I hope so. I also doubt it.
Sorry for the pessimistic view. |
Afale II
Space Pony Farm
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
In all those years im playing this game, the core values haven't changed.
If Hilmar goes im leaving EVE too, not because i like him or agree with everything he has done the past years, but because he is the only reason why this game isn't just another generic mmorpg.
Exp. Level skillsystem, npc selling combat ready ships, raiding as endgame content, indestuctible ships and moduls (you just wake up at the nearest graveyard with your ship ready), pay to win store with "stronger" ships in it. endless possibility to **** up this game, and im pretty sure if a new CEO is taking over they will do stuff like this.
-Nostalgia is not as good as it used to be- |
Brooks Puuntai
Nomadic Asylum KUGUTSUMEN.
194
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Torfi for Ceo.. Just saying |
March rabbit
Ganse Shadow of xXDEATHXx
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:41:00 -
[26] - Quote
Will you people ever stop to try to mind business of other people? Who are you again? Why should CCP/Hilmar/whoever care about your opinion about their business?
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CCP Navigator
C C P C C P Alliance
196
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
Please keep comments regarding the recent press release to this thread.
Thank you. CCP Navigator - Lead Community Representative |
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Ciar Meara
Virtus Vindice
170
|
Posted - 2011.10.20 10:44:00 -
[28] - Quote
Replace Hilmar with Reynir
Firing the community team and some content guys is just placing the blame somewhere else. - [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow] |
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