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Vol Jbolaz
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Posted - 2005.10.18 20:04:00 -
[1]
The longest few seconds in Eve are those between ordering the ship to warp and actually seeing the warp field rushing by. As I understand it, a ship enters warp when it reaches three quarters speed. So if a ship has a max speed of 100m/s, it will enter warp when it reaches 75m/s.
Warp scramblers will keep a ship from entering warp. Webifiers will slow a ship down, meaning it will take longer to enter warp.
My wondering is, does mass and propulsion strength actually, and predictably, affect acceleration and to-warp time? This affects all types of ships, but it probably most important for industrials, so I'll use them as an example. And since I'm Matari...
A Hoarder has a dry weight of 11,500 metric tons (11,500,000 kg) and a propulsion strength of 5 (plasma based, if that matters). Is there some formula to determine it's base acceleration? If so, then we can predict its to-warp time when we know its max speed.
My next question is, are inertial stabilizers better than nanofiber modifications. Nanofiber Internal Structure I gives a max speed bonus of 20 m/s and a -12.5% inertia multiplier (negative is good). Inertia Stabilizers I gives you a -10% inertia multiplier.
Presumably, both of these modules will increase your acceleration. Is that predictable (is there a formula showing your new acceleration)? The Nanofiber also boosts your max speed, pushing back that three quarter threshold by another 15 m/s. Does that affect anything? Does the extra -2.5% inertia bonus from the Nanofiber compensate? If so, would a inertial stabilizer with an equivalent inertia multiplier shorten to-warp time better, since it doesn't boost your top-end speed?
Basicly, I'm wondering what is better for to-warp optimization, nanofibers or inertial stabilizers. I know most people will recommend nanofibers, but I want to make clear that I am only interested in to-warp speeds. If you only use instas, then you never need to worry about your max sub-light speed.
And my last question goes back to my first. In the Minmatar line-up, again, the Hoarder requires Minmatar Industrial II. At that skill level, you get a 10% bonus to speed. The Mammoth requires Minmatar Industrial IV. At that skill level, you get a 20% bonus to speed in both the Hoarder and Mammoth. So, would a pod-pilot with Minmatar Industrial II, in a Hoarder with no modules, have a shorter to-warp time than a pod-pilot with Minmatar Industrial IV in the same Hoarder?
If so, that doesn't sit well with me, especially if the Mammoth's 6 propulsion points aren't able to move its 12,500 metric ton carcass as quickly as the smaller Hoarder.
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Ashelth
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Posted - 2005.10.18 21:27:00 -
[2]
webber make you warp faster if I remember correctly.
Mainly because when webbed your current speed is usually at 100% of your new max speed.
Webbing doesn't increase ship mass which would increase the amount of time to align.
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.10.18 21:41:00 -
[3]
My experience is that web does decrease agility making it take longer to align if you haven't done so already. But if you are already aligned you should warp faster as the agility decrease is not as big as the speed decrease.
Probably something I should test with some corpmates some day.
As for the nanofiber vs inert stab why not just test it. Equip a ship with all nanofibers, pre-align, stop ship. Hit warp and start a stop watch, stop it again when ship enters warp. Repeate a few times to rule out lag. Do the same with inert stabs and see if there is any time difference.
If there is little or no difference I would say stabs are better as you can get good named ones for a fraction of the price of named nanofibers.
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Moominer
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Posted - 2005.10.18 21:46:00 -
[4]
one thing for sure, the propulsion strength values have nothing to do with this.
they were for a re-vamp of the warp-scramble chance (at the same time the ECM chance changes came in) but the warp-scramble code never made it, the attributes were brought over to TQ though.
Eve Fitting Manager |
Caldorous
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Posted - 2005.10.18 22:39:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Caldorous on 18/10/2005 22:40:24
One detail, a ship turns faster when it's speed reaches the 1/3rd of the thrust. If a ship is webbed while going at full speed will take more time to turn and enter to warp than a ship that is un full stop and gets webbed.
Second, i've always thought that the inertia modifies the ship's acceleration. So more inertia means more acceleration or more brake thrust. This is good because you will take less time to reach the max turning speed. The agility determines the turn speed so higher agility means highter turn speed and you will take less time to aling to the warp point.
What i dont know is if the max speed also afects the turn speed. I think it is true. But i dont know it for sure...
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2005.03.13 01:11:29combatYour 350mm Railgun I perfectly strikes Asteroid (Veldspar), wrecking for 0.0 damage.
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.10.18 22:59:00 -
[6]
Both nanofibers and inertia stabs effect the same stat which is called "Inertia Multiplier".
So the agilty/inerita of the ship effects both turning and acc.
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Vol Jbolaz
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Posted - 2005.10.18 23:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Moominer
one thing for sure, the propulsion strength values have nothing to do with this.
they were for a re-vamp of the warp-scramble chance (at the same time the ECM chance changes came in) but the warp-scramble code never made it, the attributes were brought over to TQ though.
This is good to know.
And yes, I could test this a few times (which I may), but I am suspecting that the difference is quite small, probably within margin of error of me on a stopwatch. How ever, a fraction of a second may save you when warping, so I am quite curious to find out the hard numbers and formula behind this.
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Reatu Krentor
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Posted - 2005.10.19 03:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 19/10/2005 03:57:06
speed affects agility the faster you're going the worse your turning rate(ideal speed percentage is between 30-60% in my experience), so when you're still aligning for warp and get webbed you are way over your max speed and so your turning rate goes down...
Other factors on turning rate are the ship's agility factor and mass. Afaik the lower your agility factor and the lower your mass, the faster it will turn. Now getting to warp needs 2 things (assuming you're not scrambled), being aligned and flying at at least 75% of max velocity.
thats about all I know of it.
PS propulsion strength was an attribute they were testing for new scrambler logic which eventually they didn't introduce(were fiddling with it when they were working on the new ew system), so to the best of my knowledge this value is ignored at the moment.
#edit#
To respond to a couple other things, yes I think nanofibres are better than the inertia stabilizers(don't know why they only reduce inertia by 10% while nano's add speed and reduce it by 12.5%  .
Hoarder with lvl II or hoarder with lvl IV will go to warp at about the same time I believe, as acceleration isn't directly affected by your max velocity (in both cases you'll have to reach 75% max velocity and that will take the same time in both if I understand the eve ship thruster mechanics correctly  ). As to mammoth vs. Hoarder well mammoth is able to fit 1 more nanofibre in a speed setup so it'll either perform similar to hoarder or even be better, even with its higher mass
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The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr. |
KingsGambit
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Posted - 2005.10.19 09:53:00 -
[9]
Actually acceleration is constant per ship, thus max velocity does play a a more significant part of the equation. When webbed, as you now have a lower max velocity f.ex, you enter warp significantly faster. The same effect can be seen on slower ships like indies/BSs, by cycling an AB on/off before entering warp. If done right, the AB clicks off and the ship will enter warp almost instantly (instantly if you forgo the AB cycle time).
Ship Inertia & Agility...Inertia governs acceleration nand deceleration..the lower the better. Try CTRL+Space on an inty, then accelerating to max, then do the same in an indy, and you'll spot the difference. Agility affects how much speed your ship can mantain whilst it's turning and how fast it can turn. The higher the agility, the swifter it can turn and the more speed it can maintain while turning.
AFAIK, modules which affect inertia don't actually work. I experimented some time and found that they didn't, so unless that has since changed, there's no point in using inertia stabilisers, Overdrives don't offer any penalty, nanofibers are just a speed bonus and no more, etc.
This can be tested fairly simply, as described above. Use a BS/Indy (something with high inertia to start), and either start facing/facing away from a warp to point, at zero or at full speed heading away, doesn't really matter as long as you do it the same way each time for fairness. Time it without any mods, then with full lows of nanofibers, then with full lows of inertia stabilisers. If there's an improvement, there's you're answer.
But yes, it is a little odd, but the higher your max speed, the longer it takes you to enter warp, and conversely, the lower, the faster 
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My T2 Shop |
Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.10.19 10:39:00 -
[10]
Originally by: KingsGambit
AFAIK, modules which affect inertia don't actually work. I experimented some time and found that they didn't, so unless that has since changed, there's no point in using inertia stabilisers, Overdrives don't offer any penalty, nanofibers are just a speed bonus and no more, etc.
This can be tested fairly simply, as described above. Use a BS/Indy (something with high inertia to start), and either start facing/facing away from a warp to point, at zero or at full speed heading away, doesn't really matter as long as you do it the same way each time for fairness. Time it without any mods, then with full lows of nanofibers, then with full lows of inertia stabilisers. If there's an improvement, there's you're answer.
I did the test above a few weeks ago with a badger 2 and noticed a significant reduction in time to enter warp. Don't have the numbers anymore but they corresponded exactly to the total % of the stabs if stacking formula was used (ie 4 standard stabs would mean ca 30% reduced time)
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Vol Jbolaz
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Posted - 2005.10.19 14:25:00 -
[11]
I can say that inertial stabilizers do affect to-warp time, even if you've already aligned. I have thrown three 14% named inertial stabilizers on a Bellicose and I can tell you, that thing was quite crisp. I'm sure it would've been crisp with nanofibers, too. I'm just wondering what the mathematical difference is.
Next time I get a chance to log in, I'll play with a few ships and test acceleration and report my findings here. Mind you, everything will be crude stopwatch measurements.
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.10.19 17:51:00 -
[12]
Have done some tests now and the results are telling.
Setup 1: Badger II with 3x Nanofiber Internal Structure I
Setup 2: Badger II with 3x Inertia Stabilizers I
Test 1: Moving at full speed in a straight line away from the
warp point.
Setup 1: average 15.4 sec to warp (+- 0.3 sec)
Setup 2: average 16.8 sec to warp (+- 0.3 sec)
The nanofibers are about 8% better.
Test 2: Pre-align to warp point, come to a complete stop (this is basicly the same as warping after a gate jump).
Setup 1: average 11.0 sec to warp (+-0.3 sec)
Setup 2: average 12.0 sec to warp (+-0.3 sec)
Again the nanofibers are about 8% better.
While lag might always be a factor I ran several test with all setups and the trend was obvious.
It seems the speed bonus of nanofibers does not impact the time it takes for them to warp and the 2.5% extra inertia multiplyer results in the to warp time cut by the same amount.
My conclusion is that there are very little reason to use Inertia Stabilizers over Nanofibers.
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Reatu Krentor
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Posted - 2005.10.19 18:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: KingsGambit
Actually acceleration is constant per ship, thus max velocity does play a a more significant part of the equation. When webbed, as you now have a lower max velocity f.ex, you enter warp significantly faster. The same effect can be seen on slower ships like indies/BSs, by cycling an AB on/off before entering warp. If done right, the AB clicks off and the ship will enter warp almost instantly (instantly if you forgo the AB cycle time).
Yes you enter warp faster when webbed because you're closer to you top speed, however i'm relatively sure it takes the same amount of time(bar some funky ccp math ) to accelerate from standstill to full speed when webbed and when not.
Originally by: KingsGambit
Ship Inertia & Agility...Inertia governs acceleration nand deceleration..the lower the better. Try CTRL+Space on an inty, then accelerating to max, then do the same in an indy, and you'll spot the difference. Agility affects how much speed your ship can mantain whilst it's turning and how fast it can turn. The higher the agility, the swifter it can turn and the more speed it can maintain while turning.
There is only 1 reason why indy accelerates slower and that is mass. Agility and inertia in Eve are one and the same. Oh and did you know an inty has a worse agility factor than the indy , but mass more than makes up for that  .
Originally by: KingsGambit
AFAIK, modules which affect inertia don't actually work. I experimented some time and found that they didn't, so unless that has since changed, there's no point in using inertia stabilisers, Overdrives don't offer any penalty, nanofibers are just a speed bonus and no more, etc.
They do work, just fit a full rack of overdrives to a bs and turn, accelerate whatever, then do the same with a bs filled with nanofibres or inertia stabs(though I believe these actually have a worse inertia modifier than nanofibres, why I don't know). You'll notice the bs with the overdrives will be sluggish and accelerate poorly whereas the nanofibre one will have a good acceleration as well as be far more nimble (Bumpageddon anyone )
Originally by: KingsGambit
But yes, it is a little odd, but the higher your max speed, the longer it takes you to enter warp, and conversely, the lower, the faster
huh ?
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The ammatar are not the enemy, they are the smoke and mirrors of the amarr. |
Vol Jbolaz
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Posted - 2005.10.19 19:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Hoshi
Have done some tests now and the results are telling.
Wow, Hoshi, good job.
As a note, Nanofiber reduces your structure points. That may be a reason to use it over Inertia Stabilizers, but I doubt it.
I am a little surprised that my Mammoth, with cargo expanders, entered warp in just over 6 seconds*. Perhaps a nice balance of speed reducing modules and agility enhancing modules would be the fastest? Mind you, you wouldn't care to sacrifice that many low slots on a combat ship.
*This is from a combat log with various factors. I'll see if I can recreate this to verify.
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