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Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
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Posted - 2013.05.22 22:38:00 -
[121] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:Except piloting skills are skillpoints. No, there is a LOT to proper skill. There is a ton of things to think of and keep track of when entering into a fight (things like radial velocity, slingshot maneuvers, spiraling in, optimal/falloff, among others...). There are obvious cases where a single low SP pilot WILL defeat the higher SP pilot almost all the time. An assault frigate noob vs. a tier 3 battlecruiser being one example. But in many more cases the result may be open, as far as ship-type/fit vs other ship-type/fit goes. In these cases both SP and actual piloting skill play a role. In some cases piloting skills > SP. Let's say a frigate fight between a longpoint-kiter and a scram/web-brawler. In such a case piloting skill will trump SP anytime. If the kiter (maybe a Navy Slicer) just hits orbit, he'll lose if the brawler can pull off a proper slingshot maneuvre. Has nothing to do with SP, just with skill. Now if the kiter pays attention he'll switch to manual flying at the proper time and make sure the range initially doesn't grow and (once the brawler executes the turnaround), will immediately reverse vectors. In other cases SP > piloting skills. Let's say two similiarly fitted buffer-tanked brawling cruisers duking it out. But even here there is a lot of room for error, or even just more kill, depending on the weapon systems in use. It may very well be possible to reduce tracking enough (fly under the guns) by manually orbiting close (<500m). Also, beyond a few M SP, frig and cruiser fights are practically equal by default. Any dozen million SP beyond that won't help the older char anyway.
It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships. Since when 25 million SP if "few M"? By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%, which means SP just dominated the scene. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:46:00 -
[122] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships. Since when 25 million SP if "few M"? By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%, which means SP just dominated the scene.
You seem to have the notion that bigger ships are always better. This is not the case. I can give you many examples of smaller ships being vastly superior to a larger ship type in combat.
any assault frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers actually, almost any combat frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers
assault frigate > most battleships (unless drone BS) any combat frigate > long-range battleships (unless drone BS)
many T1 cruisers > long-range battleships / tier3 batltecruisers with long range weaponry (e.g. Vexor > artillery tornado/tempest)
I could list more such combinations. The ones above mostly rely on the insufficient tracking of the larger guns vs. smaller targets (also their inability to escape due to being slow). There are other such combinations that rely on other factors (range and speed, ewar, etc.)
This is also the reason that many high SP pilots never stop flying frigates and cruisers (the new T1 cruisers rock), let alone battlecruisers. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
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Posted - 2013.05.22 22:47:00 -
[123] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships. Exactly. So why are you? Because that's the only way for your claim to be even the slightest bit close to true (and not even then does it account for what player skill can do).
Quote:Since when 25 million SP if "few M"? Since, oh, 2004 or so.
Quote:By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. GǪand the error Gǣlower SPGǥ does is to max cruisers when it's an immense waste of time and effort to do so compared to what you get.
Quote:You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen Yes you can. That's where player skill comes in.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
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Posted - 2013.05.22 22:48:00 -
[124] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:It is ridiculous to assume higher SP and lower SP players will be in even remotely equal ships. Since when 25 million SP if "few M"? By the time lower SP maxes cruisers, higher SP will max every possible cruiser killer combination. You just don't stand a chance against higher SP unless a terrible mistake is made, and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%, which means SP just dominated the scene. You seem to have the notion that bigger ships are always better. This is not the case. I can give you many examples of smaller ships being vastly superior to a larger ship type in combat. any assault frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers actually, almost any combat frigate > tier 3 battlecruisers assault frigate > most battleships (unless drone BS) any combat frigate > long-range battleships (unless drone BS) many T1 cruisers > long-range battleships / tier3 batltecruisers with long range weaponry (e.g. Vexor > artillery tornado/tempest) I could list more such combinations. The ones above mostly rely on the insufficient tracking of the larger guns vs. smaller targets (also their inability to escape due to being slow). There are other such combinations that rely on other factors (range and speed, ewar, etc.) This is also the reason that many high SP pilots never stop flying frigatse and cruisers (let alone battlecruisers, which rock).
I said better ships are better, not bigger. And better ships take months to simply get into, not to mention do something in them. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
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Posted - 2013.05.22 22:50:00 -
[125] - Quote
0/10
Unless you don't get the silent hint, I will tell you straightly - whatever you troll is going to get thoroughly ignored. |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:51:00 -
[126] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:I said better ships are better, not bigger. And better ships take months to simply get into, not to mention do something in them.
A battleship can be an awesome ship. But if I get a chance to catch one in a cruiser (best with tracking disruptor), I'll jump at it.
A vexor is neither bettor nor worse than a tempest. It depends on the situation and fitting of both to decide who has the better chance of winning. It almost doesn't matter in what ship you undock, there will be counters to that. Counters that a charcter with less SP can also fly.
Sometimes this rock/paper/scissors game doesn't leave much room for skill (real piloting skill or SP). Sometimes it'll be close, then both will matter. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 22:57:00 -
[127] - Quote
Prove it.
Quote:Unless you don't get the silent hint, I will tell you straightly The only hint so far is that you're impervious to facts and figures; that your claims have no basis in reality, mechanics, game history or anything; that you have no argument other than "nu-uh!GǥGǪ
GǪin other words, the only conclusion is that you're a troll. But that's ok, because you'll serve as a proxy for the poor newbies who are unfortunate enough to genuinely believe the counter-factual nonsense you're spewing.
Quote:I said better ships are better, not bigger. There are no GÇ£better shipsGÇ¥. All harder-to-train-for ship can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:03:00 -
[128] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:I said better ships are better, not bigger. There are no GÇ£better shipsGÇ¥. All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships.
Quoted because Tippia said in a nice and concise fashion what I have been writing novels about. ("practice", i guess) |
Captain Tardbar
NEWB ALERT
410
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Posted - 2013.05.22 23:05:00 -
[129] - Quote
Tippia posts make me fear for the end of intelligence in humanity, but makes me cheer because they'll only be 25 years left of it before everyone starves to death in the shopping line at Wal Mart. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby". If you fantasize about being immoral it means you enjoy being immoral deep down. |
Baali Tekitsu
Sirius Fleet
1
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Posted - 2013.05.22 23:09:00 -
[130] - Quote
Daaaamn cracka look Art how this 1y old PUNK is CRUNCHING all dem bitches 1337 solo **** outnumbered n stuff http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=1366100 |
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
856
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Posted - 2013.05.22 23:19:00 -
[131] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote: and you cannot force that mistake to happen. Which means your chance to win by skill is 0%
ok now, who the hell killed your multibillion pirate battleship with a T1 frigate?
it has to be that, right? [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
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Posted - 2013.05.22 23:21:00 -
[132] - Quote
Karsa Egivand wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:I said better ships are better, not bigger. There are no GÇ£better shipsGÇ¥. All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships. Quoted because Tippia said in a nice and concise fashion what I have been writing novels about. ( "practice", i guess ) A version that you can't misread as easily: "All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by a well chosen easy-to-train-for ship."
Wrong. All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6583
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:23:00 -
[133] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Wrong. All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.
So how did a dram die to a badger? |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites United Federation of Commerce
857
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:26:00 -
[134] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
Wrong. All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.
So how did a dram die to a badger? and this was back in the days when drams were quite... powerful. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
186
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:33:00 -
[135] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Karsa Egivand wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:I said better ships are better, not bigger. There are no GÇ£better shipsGÇ¥. All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by easy-to-train-for ships. Quoted because Tippia said in a nice and concise fashion what I have been writing novels about. ( "practice", i guess ) A version that you can't misread as easily: "All harder-to-train-for ships can be readily beaten by a well chosen easy-to-train-for ship." Wrong. All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort.
This is wrong (obviously so) and you never reply to all the examples given. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:38:00 -
[136] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Wrong. All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship Prove it.
Quote:having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort. One problem: you don't have free choice.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Jonah Gravenstein
Khalkotauroi Defence Labs
8382
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:40:00 -
[137] - Quote
The more I see of the OPs posting the more I'm convinced that, he's either a troll, a little bit special or both.
I eat your hatred for breakfast, then wash it down with your tears. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:41:00 -
[138] - Quote
This is obviously right. Must I repeat it for you?
Basil Pupkin wrote:All harder-to-train-ships beat all but maybe one easy-to-train-ship, and having a free choice of harder-to-train-ships to kill you higher SP will dominate without effort. |
Luna Q
Rep-X Hashashin Cartel
469
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
you are stupid, & should feel bad. Quit now & give all your stuff to people that have learned to EvE. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:44:00 -
[140] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:This is obviously right. Prove it.
Quote:Must I repeat it for you? No, just prove it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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Vordek Rei
House of Praetor R O G U E
2
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Posted - 2013.05.22 23:46:00 -
[141] - Quote
Arguing with Basil Pupkin is dumb, when we can test it.
I will pay for all the costs associated with such an event (duel) or Duels, rules are simple.
Standard Frigates, Destroyers or Cruisers, with standard fittings.
No named/officer/etc or LP store mods. Just run of the mill items.
Make sure you don't have too many implants, max value of 25 mil in total.
Rules are simple - when you fight Basil Pupkin make sure you can prove with that you have fewer SP than him, or prove it in such a way that its very likely that you do.
I will pay all* expenses for this event. - I will only pay for destroyed items.
Just wasted +700 mil on a face plug, think I can spare a few millions of isk for the laughs. |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:47:00 -
[142] - Quote
Luna Q wrote:you are stupid, & should feel bad. Quit now & give all your stuff to people that have learned to EvE.
I've invested too much to quit. I wish I could ruin EvE for everyone, but it seems Odyssey will do well enough. Eve brings nothing but regret to anyone who lost the chance to register earlier. |
Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:49:00 -
[143] - Quote
ITT:
OP confuses "skill" with "skillpoints" Core Skills - train em up train em up! |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:50:00 -
[144] - Quote
Vordek Rei wrote:Arguing with Basil Pupkin is dumb, when we can test it. I will pay for all the costs associated with such an event (duel) or Duels, rules are simple.Standard Frigates, Destroyers or Cruisers, with standard fittings. No named/officer/etc or LP store mods. Just run of the mill items. Make sure you don't have too many implants, max value of 25 mil in total. Rules are simple - when you fight Basil Pupkin make sure you can prove with that you have fewer SP than him, or prove it in such a way that its very likely that you do. I will pay all* expenses for this event. - I will only pay for destroyed items.Just wasted +700 mil on a face plug, think I can spare a few millions of isk for the laughs.
This is indeed a situation where SP can make less of an impact. But it's so unreal and impractical, which destroys the value of experiment completely.
Invisusira wrote:ITT:
OP confuses "skill" with "skillpoints"
Since you win with skillpoints, skillpoints are skill. |
Vordek Rei
House of Praetor R O G U E
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:51:00 -
[145] - Quote
Well well then if you don't want to play my game I will force you, enjoy you new bounty. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
154
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:51:00 -
[146] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I said better ships are better, not bigger. And better ships take months to simply get into, not to mention do something in them.
No, actually, at varying points in this thread you have made various claims.
Texas Sharpshooter
Or maybe
Special
Your claim was "Eve "PvP" formula is simple as wood - more SP wins. You have an account created later than 2007-2008? Automatic defeat at every attempt of pvping."
You then clarified to say "Oh, I meant 1v1, cos duelling is pro"
Then you claimed that given the same ship, a player with 100m SP would beat a specialized char with fewer SP. "Numbers = more SP = win. Not an exception." ""You don't have that SP heap? Lol noob, automatic defeat forever."
Then you confused Skill in PvP with SP: "Except piloting skills are skillpoints." "Whoever has more SP wins. Winner is said to have more piloting skills than the loser.
So either they're the same or very closely related."
Now you are claiming that the problem is that "better" ships require more SP.
So your current argument is "I should be able to get this seasons arena gear and skills at level 1"
finally:
"I said better ships are better, not bigger. And better ships take months to simply get into, not to mention do something in them."
I respectfully disagree. Sure, if you want to be in null, maybe you need some big huge scary ship that takes 6 months...but then, do you think it is unfair that a 1 day old player cannot fly in a L4 missionboat?
My PvP alts take 2-3 months to finish training usually, because for me, the "best" ship is the one I like flying...for a new char, those months taking training for a T2 frig/cruiser/whatever are time gained throwing cheap ships around.
As mentioned before, you are welcome to buy a high SP pvp pilot as a new player, hop into the ship, and see if your SP gets you very far against a player who has actually been shooting stuff, and losing ships and learning from their mistakes.
The bit you miss that takes the time is the experience gained when you make a mistake. THAT is the part you want to skip.
If we all had equal SP and equal ships, we would still not all be equal at PvP and this is what is bothering you. |
Invisusira
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
164
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:52:00 -
[147] - Quote
ITT:
OP learns to use a dictionary Core Skills - train em up train em up! |
Shao Huang
University of Caille Gallente Federation
236
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:54:00 -
[148] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:[quote=Luna Q]
I've invested too much to quit. I wish I could ruin EvE for everyone, but it seems Odyssey will do well enough. Eve brings nothing but regret to anyone who lost the chance to register earlier. And there is the actuality behind the attempted rhetoric. Based on this OP would have a very different view had they somehow not 'lost the chance to register earlier'.
Sometimes this emotional response is called envy. Historically speaking, it usually doesn't work out too well. Perhaps this thread will have provided something therapeutic or cathartic for the OP such that they do not have to live with the fairly well documented effects of contextualizing ones actions based on envy. Private sig. Do not read. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14347
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:54:00 -
[149] - Quote
Basil Pupkin wrote:Eve brings nothing but regret to anyone who lost the chance to register earlier. Prove it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Basil Pupkin
Why So Platypus
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 23:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
Shao Huang wrote:Basil Pupkin wrote:
I've invested too much to quit. I wish I could ruin EvE for everyone, but it seems Odyssey will do well enough. Eve brings nothing but regret to anyone who lost the chance to register earlier.
And there is the actuality behind the attempted rhetoric. Based on this OP would have a very different view had they somehow not 'lost the chance to register earlier'. Sometimes this emotional response is called envy. Historically speaking, it usually doesn't work out too well. Perhaps this thread will have provided something therapeutic or cathartic for the OP such that they do not have to live with the fairly well documented effects of contextualizing ones actions based on envy.
What can I do, envy aside, if I'll never have enough skillpoints to be "good"? Nothing. |
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