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Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
1
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Posted - 2013.05.25 08:26:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey everybody,
I have been toying with the idea of starting an actual business in EVE. I have the educational and work experience IRL to start a business in the financial sector. Before we get started, yes there is always the risk of scamming but thankfully all of my investments so far haven't been scams and I am not looking to scam anybody (easier said than trusted, I know). Being a relatively new player, I am mainly looking for feedback from the community at this point, kind of a market test if you will, to see what cool ideas I might be able to possibly turn into a business venture. To sweeten the deal, any ideas that end up being turned into a business venture, will have a profit sharing component. If you want to chat in game, add me as a contact and ping me when I'm available or respond here in this thread. I really want to find a way to make some ISK in game while embracing the unique "corporate" atmosphere of Eve. Thanks all! |
OfBalance
Caldari State
507
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Posted - 2013.05.25 08:38:00 -
[2] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:I have the educational and work experience IRL to start a business in the financial sector.
Please elaborate on this for my amusement.
If you are successful in the above task, I will provide you with (1) Good Idea. |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
1
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Posted - 2013.05.25 08:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
I have an Associates Degree in Business with a concentration in Accounting, a Bachelor's in Accounting with a concentration in Internal Auditing. I am a Treasury Management professional with a major bank in the US and am close to getting my Certified Treasury Professional certification. I'm currently studying to start my Masters of Accountancy so if that doesn't qualify for real life work and educational experience for starting a business in the financial sector, than I'm not sure what does. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
146
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:I have an Associates Degree in Business with a concentration in Accounting, a Bachelor's in Accounting with a concentration in Internal Auditing. I am a Treasury Management professional with a major bank in the US and am close to getting my Certified Treasury Professional certification. I'm currently studying to start my Masters of Accountancy so if that doesn't qualify for real life work and educational experience for starting a business in the financial sector, than I'm not sure what does.
Well if all that is true your best way to use your skills would be integrating into the MD community.
Also an actual share based pro run EVE corp is still something we are waiting for.
These Links might also help you with ideas..
http://scc-lounge.net/wordpress/scc-insider/secure-commerce-services/
http://scc-lounge.net/wordpress/eve-bplans/
Also the ingame channel scc-lounge might be a useful place to drop by..
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Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
1
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quick question, what is the MD Community? I actually just found SCC tonight looking at other articles. I got inspired by the Frog Freight Companies and some other in game corps that caught my eye. I will take a look at the idea of a share driven, profit sharing corporation based off ownership %'s and seeing if that would be realistically feasible given some good excel-fu skills. I'll check out those links and see if I can post something later, thank god for memorial day weekend. |
voetius
L V B Industries STELLAR CONSTELLATION
34
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Posted - 2013.05.25 09:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
the MD community is a loose term that refers to people that post in this subforum but can also be taken to include people that are in the various trade channels like scc-lounge and others. |
clamslayer
White Collar Cartel
58
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Posted - 2013.05.25 10:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just do what this guy did. It turned out to be a scam, but his story what well thought out enough to fool a lot of players, including the CEO and members of Red Frog Freight.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=182964&find=unread |
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
206
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Posted - 2013.05.25 10:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
You're inspired by Red Frog Freight, a company which doesn't generate a profit. Sounds like a good model to me. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
4129
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Posted - 2013.05.25 13:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:I have an Associates Degree in Business with a concentration in Accounting, a Bachelor's in Accounting with a concentration in Internal Auditing. I am a Treasury Management professional with a major bank in the US and am close to getting my Certified Treasury Professional certification. I'm currently studying to start my Masters of Accountancy so if that doesn't qualify for real life work and educational experience for starting a business in the financial sector, than I'm not sure what does.
All of the above has a nice value of zero in EvE.
In EvE I would trust and have trusted 100 times more a guy that in RL is a cook (F.) and one that is a philosophy teacher (R.) than 50 "bachelor professionals".
In RL I'd probably do the same choices. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Rual Storge
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
14
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Posted - 2013.05.25 14:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:I have an Associates Degree in Business with a concentration in Accounting, a Bachelor's in Accounting with a concentration in Internal Auditing. I am a Treasury Management professional with a major bank in the US and am close to getting my Certified Treasury Professional certification. I'm currently studying to start my Masters of Accountancy so if that doesn't qualify for real life work and educational experience for starting a business in the financial sector, than I'm not sure what does.
In this case i could have a well paying out of game job for you? It is not legit. |
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Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
1
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Posted - 2013.05.25 14:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
I didn't know that the frog freight companies didn't generate a profit, I meant overall about creating an in game company that provides a service. As to the content of this thread, this isn't really what I was looking for but thanks for the replies I guess. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
915
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Posted - 2013.05.25 14:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Why don't you use your rl experience to start a bank?
we didn't have any serious attempt at it in quite some time and a background in accounting and auditing would certainly help (EBANK never got around to implementing proper accounting practices and monitoring afaik - only when they did an inventory to prepare liquidation it was discovered that one of their employees had fudged the books for his own gain).
A new bank would be just the sort of content creation MD desperately needs.
(seriously, **** the non-believers; just because there is no mechanism forcing you not to scam doesn't mean it is impossible to stay honest, MD tends to play up all the failure and ignore the silent champions (e.g. BMBE); go and do whatever thing you decide on doing! even if you go bust or scam after a good run you will have been a net positive to MD.) |
Charley en Cedoulain
Renzler Industries Omnium Libertatem
1
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Posted - 2013.05.25 15:16:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again! |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
146
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Posted - 2013.05.25 15:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again!
Well a solution is ofc staff. That would get you around the EULA, but require trust and handling access levels in corp ofc.
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Adunh Slavy
856
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Posted - 2013.05.25 16:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bottle trust and sell it.
Best of luck |
Devin Stark
Funny Men In Funny Hats
0
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Posted - 2013.05.26 09:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
You could try and start a "groupon" like service.. Though executing it might be hard/slow.. You would need to find a lot of bulk suppliers (of services or products that are willing to receive below market prices but in bulk) and have your site/tool popular enough to draw enough clients for these said services/products
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Zor Isu
Eve Blackjack
3
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Posted - 2013.05.26 14:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again! Well a solution is ofc staff. That would get you around the EULA, but require trust and handling access levels in corp ofc.
www.eveblackjack.com
how to get started tutorial-á http://youtu.be/6OLJmTuvqlM |
Zor Isu
Eve Blackjack
3
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Posted - 2013.05.26 14:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again! Well a solution is ofc staff. That would get you around the EULA, but require trust and handling access levels in corp ofc.
For eve black jack we were trying to automate payouts, but Caleb is right, only solution is to have staff,and Ofc that's easier Said than done because they need access to a wallet.
Good luck with everything www.eveblackjack.com
how to get started tutorial-á http://youtu.be/6OLJmTuvqlM |
Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
29
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again! Well a solution is ofc staff. That would get you around the EULA, but require trust and handling access levels in corp ofc.
If you're really interested in this, you are going to have to do a hell of a lot more research than just how to deal with withdrawals. On this point in particular though, Hexxx was working on a distributed withdrawals system as part of his work on banking and insurance systems that could prove to be a solution. In fact I would encourage you to review everything he did on banking in EVE (the good and the bad) if you are going to look at banking, as well as the histories of all past EVE banks and the reasons for their failure. |
MotherSammy
Gespenster Kompanie Villore Accords
7
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:35:00 -
[20] - Quote
TL;DR I want to make ISK but have no ideas. Give me yours. |
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Fret Thiesant
Reavers of New Blood
13
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Posted - 2013.05.29 11:20:00 -
[21] - Quote
Might want to check out the early history of an alliance called ISS.
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Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
182
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Posted - 2013.05.29 13:51:00 -
[22] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again!
People in the real world only trust banks (if they trust them at all) because "trusted entities" provide deposit insurance to to protect them from the bank robbing them. In EVE, to the best of my knowledge, every single attempt to set up a bank has ended in the directors of the bank taking the money and running.
And why wouldn't they? There are no laws, no judges, no jails... no negative consqquences of any kind for scamming people. In EVE ethics and morals are in very short supply.... and everyone knows it.
On the flip side, banks in the real world have instruments by which to limit their risks, by which loans can be insured or collateralized by meaningful assets etc in order to protect the bank from customer maleficence. In at least one case I know of, an in-game bank suffered both the CEO making off with the majority of liquid assets AND customers defaulting on 250 billiion of uninsured loans.
my conclusion... the basic legal, organizational and moral preconditions for starting a savings and loan bank in EVE are simply not there. There is a ABSOLUTELY HUGE need for this, but the social/political/legal constructs needed to make it work simple don't exist in game.
That's not to say that there are no ways to start a company.
Two really easy ways to get something running are
1) Start a cooperative based around some kind of industry (any isk faucet can form a basis for a co-op). Co-ops are hard to make run well because they motivate people to under-perform (even in the real-world) but there are several successful coorperatives in the game and there are some good ways to make interesting content at least for those players who are part of it.
2) In theory you should be able to start a virtual pawn shop that could be a viable alternative to a bank. You'd have to look for people wanting to put stacks of inventory into pawn that they don't want to sell yet in order to free up liquid isk. For example, at this moment there are probably 1000's of people with huge stacks of isk locked up in items like procurers and battleships that they will have to wait for 6 months to sell... Some of those people I'm sure would love to put that inventory into pawn and get liquid isk to churn while they wait for the market to adjust. In my mind, this could be a very viable alternative to a savings and loan bank. I know some people already do this via the forums but with some minor adjustments to the contracts system in EVE, then in-game pawn shops could spout.
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Zaxix
Long Jump.
95
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
There are many misconceptions about running a business in EVE.
For the most part, people who produce items for sale aren't running a business in the sense most people in RL think about such things. For example, you can't brand the freighter you build. You can't build a better freighter. You can't design the "next generation" of freighters. It's just production for sale. Even then, it isn't company specific. Few people produce items that they only sell through their own "store" (e.g. sell forum thread). Most is just brought to market, which means that the company doesn't have a face or name in the community. It's still a business in the technical sense, just not in the sense that each business is somehow unique.
Most business in EVE is of the production sort. If you read the sell forums it will quickly become apparent that the only "real" businesses (in the sense that they are unique and the products/services they offer are better/worse than their competitiors) are service providers. Those breakdown into mercs, standings related services (both standings grind and corp w/ standings sales), hauling, real estate (WH sales mostly; I have no idea if those are even legit), compression services, third party services (trust for hire), and some production sales, generally of ships/items that are very expensive and thus not usually listed on the market because of taxes/fees, e.g. titan packs. MD regulars will note the lack of mention of financial services. Other than the longstanding third-party services (Chribba and Grendell), I regard all of them as probable scams and avoid them. Many players feel the same way. Almost every financial business I've seen in EVE is gone now. Even those that remain are very different from their original incarnation (e.g. V.V.).
You mentioned Red-Frog specifically. I founded Black Frog, RF's jump freighter service, and I was a long time RF director (now retired). RF is a very different animal from most other businesses in EVE. Specifically because it doesn't generate a profit. All of the contract rewards go to the pilots (and they've recently added an insurance program pilots pay into). Everybody pulls their own weight, even directors. This is a critical element of running a business in EVE. You have to keep in mind that this is a game and people don't play games for the purpose of starting a second job. Many people have started businesses in EVE with the mindset that it's a real world company. They think in terms of the boss getting the biggest piece of the pie, firing/hiring, giving orders, etc. That just doesn't work in a game. No one is afraid to lose their job because their kids will starve.
Players are also innately suspicious of setups in which money goes to the corporation, but line pilots are kept in the dark about what is done with the money. Rightly so. If your CEO isn't open about what he's doing with all the ISK you're helping to make, you can safely assume you're going to get screwed. People often forget to plan for turnover. In a game where the overwhelming number of people quit before finishing a full year, failure to plan for hiring will kill your business. RF has outlasted most of its competitors for two simple reasons: relentless recruiting (we half-assed it for a long time, but Red Frog Rufen showed us how its done) and share the wealth. Several RF competitors simply couldn't adjust to the time demands running an EVE business put on them. Whatever business you start, keep that in mind. If you can't realistically do what must be done in 20 hrs or less per week, you will almost certainly burn out in 6 months or less.
that's my two cents! ***Frog Forever***
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Zaxix
Long Jump.
95
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again! fyi you're being trolled. lol. google E-Bank and/or Ricdic ***Frog Forever***
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RAW23
133
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Posted - 2013.05.29 16:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Charley en Cedoulain wrote:Thanks for the idea! i would be interested as to seeing how to automate isk withdrawals since I'm not on during the day time or overnight hours. I wonder how to do that without violating the EULA as I don't want to make people wait to withdraw isk as that would negatively affect their play. I'll take a look at the MD community via the Scc-lounge which I joined and try to get a direction on that. If I do get it implemented, I'll make sure to include the profit share Vera. Thanks again! fyi you're being trolled. lol. google E-Bank and/or Ricdic
Finally someone has put an end to this cruel charade!
@ OP - also eve-search for FBank and DBank. All attempts to create deposit-based banking schemes in eve have been not just failures but failures of such epic proportions that they have gone down in legend. Indeed, one of them failed so spectacularly that it was reported by the BBC and caused two years of bitter recriminations here on MD. The total losses to the investing public through bank failures on MD approaches 2 trillion isk.
The 'banking' successes that Vera so cruelly alluded to when sending you down this path have been non-deposit banks. They simply use either private or public funds which they then lend out for fully collateralised loans. They provide no banking functionality beyond this. There are two type of eve player:
those who believe there are two types of eve player and those who do not. |
Vera Algaert
Republic University Minmatar Republic
918
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Posted - 2013.05.29 22:15:00 -
[26] - Quote
My post was badly written and probably confusing but it wasn't supposed to be a troll post.
History has shown that there are people who can be trusted with copious amounts of ISK even if all rational incentives are stacked against honesty and the stories of these people add greatly to the character of EVE.
EVE players easily forget that there is a choice between being "good" and being "bad" - listen to the veterans for too long and you'll be left with the impression that the world is outright forcing man to be evil. People of character (we all know the names of some of them) prove this view wrong every single day, they show that the potential for good is real and that evil is a choice - not a natural consequence. We need to enable more of them to shine.
The examples I hinted at were provided in that spirit.
And contrary to what MD may prefer to believe - EVE players like to trust. You don't need a perfect presentation, you don't need a track record of many years and you certainly don't need full collateral to be trusted with large amounts of ISK.
Have a look around you. I wouldn't have touched VLI with a ten foot pole, most "MD folk" thought that investment opportunity smelled extremely fishy and stayed away from it - but yet, despite all its flaws, despite all the posts warning about a potential scam, ... the offering got nice number of investors. No, I honestly don't believe they are an army of sockpuppets and alts. I believe they are real and a direct result of Joshua Vaughn Lampen tirelessly working his ass off when it came to investor communications.
Every big investment scam is a powerful testament to the EVE community's willingness to believe in people and to trust them with ISK. Don't listen to bittervets who tell you that nobody will invest in an unsecured offering, the facts prove them wrong time and again.
The biggest obstacles to running a financial institution are controlling, staff management and managing your institution's growth. Past banks failed horribly at these issues. FuryBank was a one-man operation that didn't recover from losses incurred and assets trapped when BRUCE lost Fountain. Dynasty Banking was a two-man operation that shrank to a one-man operation and then suffered from burnout and a massive IT failure. EBANK had been failing horribly at controlling and staff management long before Ricdic decided to cash out (but only after his heist did the rot become truly apparent to us outsiders). These are tough obstacles but I believe that they can be solved - look up to services like SOMER Blink or EOH for inspiration and encouragement.
I honestly believe that even another failed bank would currently be a step forward for MD. And an (admittedly unlikely) success would do MD, EVE and CCP a world of good. |
Praxis Ginimic
318
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Posted - 2013.05.30 15:32:00 -
[27] - Quote
Well aren't you cheery and optimistic. I prefer to do all my EVE "banking" at gun point. No collateral or dishonest scams. Just good ol' stick-ups in space. I do wish you all the luck in the world though OP. Welcome to EVE |
Zaxix
Long Jump.
95
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Posted - 2013.05.30 16:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Bottom line: banks are unnecessary in EVE. The only function even vaguely necessary is being covered by collateralized loan services. Everything else is just an elaborate lottery. ***Frog Forever***
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Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
150
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Posted - 2013.05.30 16:44:00 -
[29] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Bottom line: banks are unnecessary in EVE. The only function even vaguely necessary is being covered by collateralized loan services. Everything else is just an elaborate lottery.
Absolutist statement.. and fundamentally wrong.
Its hard to establish banking in the current game environment, but it would def be useful in regards to the speed of moneyflow.
Its only as "not needed" as I would imagine it was in RL prior to its proper introduction, in its first proper organization by the Templars. The benefit of banking is always about speed of the money flow and fungibility.
As Unifex said EVE is maturing, and eventually advanced financial services and products will be a more vital part of it, till then its spaceship frag fest, and harvesting tears. Let see what Odyssey (the EVE puberty) brings.
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RAW23
135
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Posted - 2013.05.30 17:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
Vera wrote: These are tough obstacles but I believe that they can be solved - look up to services like SOMER Blink or EOH for inspiration and encouragement.
This is a good point but I think there is one critical difference. In the case of EOH and SOMER Blink there are good business motivations for solving these problems and running complex systems in a professional manner: enormous profits. What the banks were never able to solve was how to make a decent amount of cash. If, as a bank, you're earning 2% a month on a trillion isk in deposits, then that is a measly 20bil a month profit - about what any experienced solo trader or industrialist could comfortably earn without building the huge technical framework required for a bank and without most of the risks. Now, I suspect that EOH earns 5bil+ per day while SOMER has earned tens of trillions over three or so years. THAT is motivation to do these thing well. In the case of banks with lots of functionality and relatively high staffing level you have to develop and run these systems out of love because you could surely be doing something more profitable with your time. And we have seen again and again how quickly love can turn to indifference or even hate. There are two type of eve player:
those who believe there are two types of eve player and those who do not. |
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