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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
LOGINCHAR
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Posted - 2005.10.27 07:30:00 -
[1]
As I see, new manufacturing system is a huge nerf to T1 production. It demand greater increase in need of capital and slow down capital circulation. Mass production of T1 stuff become mach more risky and difficult operation. In addition it nerfed trade skills, like remote buying and selling skills.
I, for example, would not longer able to play how I play now.
Right now I have factory that produce T1 frigates. With my skills and BPO I can produce 81 frigate/week. I usually put factory order for a few weeks and after that obtain minerals by remote buying or by buy orders. I am no longer need to be physically present to continue production. My profit is just about 5K isk per frigate, 405K isk/week. This size of profit can not justify physical travel to the station to renew production when minerals run out. With the new system I will have to invest minerals not for couple days ahead, but for max production time to make this production useful or just stop production all together.
The same apply to all low levels modules, compressed trit production. Because speed of production in term of isk/day is low, new system demand mach bigger capital frozen in production, making producing T1 stuff even less attractive, then it is now.
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F'nog
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Posted - 2005.10.27 07:33:00 -
[2]
It may effect your production, but does it effect everyone elses?
Oh, and, I believe, the same has been said about every single other change that has come to the game. "X change will kill Y." So far the game is going stronger than ever, so forgive me if I'm reluctant to believe you.
Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.10.27 07:40:00 -
[3]
Frankly most T1 production doesn't make financial sense as-is. Something needs to be done but most conceivable changes will just result in prices setting to a new equilibrium with the same crappy profit margins. Can't do much about dumb players and loot sold to undercut. -==- Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise! LooseCannoN> ahh! LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Andrue
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Posted - 2005.10.27 08:12:00 -
[4]
Originally by: F'nog It may effect your production, but does it effect everyone elses?
Oh, and, I believe, the same has been said about every single other change that has come to the game. "X change will kill Y." So far the game is going stronger than ever, so forgive me if I'm reluctant to believe you.
Yeah. Weren't trade skills supposed to destroy trading for all time?
Lol.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! -- (Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Baraak Tizhaan
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Posted - 2005.10.27 08:50:00 -
[5]
In your case I think that you could do with a "Remote Factory Management" skill so that you can place build runs in the queue at remote stations. Hmm - I think I'll put this on the Suggestions forum. Personally I think it's a grand idea and shouldhave been implemented ages ago. I personally would much rather pay for the time I used the factory/lab and not have days rent wasted. [ |
Khatred
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Posted - 2005.10.27 08:50:00 -
[6]
I know one thing, if the next Gen manufacturing will screw over our production (as in I find out that the 2nd week I don't get in queues with all production or stuff like that) expect a even bigger scarcity in HAC's availability.
________________________________________________ The narrow minded and selfish people posting on EO forums made me bitter |
James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.10.27 09:27:00 -
[7]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 27/10/2005 09:34:46 Actually, even if it _does_ make your manufacturing worse, then it'll surely have the same impact on everyone else?
Less stuff, more margin. Surely a good thing? If only for the newer players who can't churn out millions of thingies each week at a 1% margin.
The lesson from the POS market is: If it's not worth your effort, don't do it :). Either someone else will, or the price will rise until it _is_ worth your effort again.
And quoting from Oveurs dev blog:
"One thing to remember here is that private facilities, the research and manufacturing in Starbases, Outposts and Conquerable Stations are all controlled by their owner and therefore, that is the location where you can own the facility and don't have to worry about going into the queue. "
You want bulk production, then that's cool. Come have a chat with ISS, and we'll work something out for you :).
"- New facilities will most likely be remotely manageable - Possibilities for specialization within empire. Yes, we are considering allowing limited Starbases in Empire where you lease a moon from a NPC Sovereignty and based on standing. - This system ensures everyone will be able to manufacture or research something in private facilities, because it is queue based and batch processed. The factor that comes instead is when your job is processed. There is no need to move anywhere :)"
So, basically, you'll be able to do more or less the same thing. Accumulate mins, submit job. Repeat.
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Joshua Deakin
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Posted - 2005.10.27 09:48:00 -
[8]
Why would it make sense to profit 40mil/week by doing "nothing" i.e. not playing actively? The current system just promotes deflation and makes it hard for newer players to start any effective production.
As a basic solo miner, I profit around 5 mil per hour, actively playing every minute. And boredom strikes pretty quickly so one usually will not mine more than two hours straight + hauling the refined materials to market to sell them.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.10.27 09:50:00 -
[9]
I don't see the whine... to avoid resources being grabbed all at once, why not just put 100 productions in the queue, each a single-run production? - Proud member of the [23].
Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.27 10:21:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 27/10/2005 10:24:24
Every single major T2 producer has expressed great concern. That alone should make CCP reconsider.
This WILL cause a sharp rise in T2 prices, because of interupted production and the hasses invovled. T1 will rise marginally...new players will be affected as anyone else, of course, but at least with T1 you can do parallel production or make a quick BPC if you need to.
And Andrue? The trade skills HAVE destroyed the old trade markets, most of the traders I knew back then who were working the border regions are now sitting in Rens etc...they've forced people inwards and made it basically impossible to supply the edges of space.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: LOGINCHAR As I see, new manufacturing system is a huge nerf to T1 production. It demand greater increase in need of capital and slow down capital circulation. Mass production of T1 stuff become mach more risky and difficult operation. In addition it nerfed trade skills, like remote buying and selling skills.
I, for example, would not longer able to play how I play now.
Right now I have factory that produce T1 frigates. With my skills and BPO I can produce 81 frigate/week. I usually put factory order for a few weeks and after that obtain minerals by remote buying or by buy orders. I am no longer need to be physically present to continue production. My profit is just about 5K isk per frigate, 405K isk/week. This size of profit can not justify physical travel to the station to renew production when minerals run out. With the new system I will have to invest minerals not for couple days ahead, but for max production time to make this production useful or just stop production all together.
The same apply to all low levels modules, compressed trit production. Because speed of production in term of isk/day is low, new system demand mach bigger capital frozen in production, making producing T1 stuff even less attractive, then it is now.
CCP is trying to push everyone into megacorps. Megacorps dont have these issues to deal with so they dont care. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
If you act like a sheep, expect to be shorn and knitted into a colorful sweater.
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Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:19:00 -
[12]
nothing to do with being pushed into a megacorp and it has everything to do with just sitting in jita using your factory slots. honestly you got a full que somewhere? then move your production. Freighters make it very easy to have high volume production off the beaten tracks. I myself have 4 .5 systems with about 8 stations worth of factory slots that are virtually empty now. keeping up high volume manufacturing will not be too hard since the que's in these systems will be empty while those you aren't using their heads fill the que's in ourselaert, jita and the other high sec systems.
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Mirph
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:34:00 -
[13]
If you are only making 5k off each frigate, you really need to move or expand your area of sales, or go into another type of ship.
I've been producing frigates and make about 100-150k isk each, selling about 10/week, giving me 1-1,5m profit on only the frigate production. I also produce other stuff and can say I easily hit 10m/week by producing Tech 1 ships and gear. It usually turns out to be about ~20M/week in pure production income. ------------------ Road Runner |
Dakath
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:52:00 -
[14]
I am against any new skill requirements. Skill training is too time-consuming already.
If CCP would shorten skill training times by half I would change my opinion.
1000 baby bunnies were slow-roasted alive to create this signature line.
We Hate Bunny |
Sendivogius
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Posted - 2005.10.27 11:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Sendivogius on 27/10/2005 12:06:03
I don't know how these changes 'force' anyone into megacorps. They're currently awkward changes for megacorps and have some advantages for small producers. For a start, it will be easier for small-scalers to penetrate hubs directly as no-one is going to be able to lockdown the entire job queue of a hub factory station.
However, the junking of a JIT model for an inefficient stock-in-advance model is foolishness.
CCP presenting this as a spurious advantage on the grounds of 'your jobs won't be thrown out anymore as you'll have all the materials in advance' doesn't even begin to make-up for the loss in efficiency here.
The jobs model is, in my opinion, a good one in and of itself. It's much better than the slot model that has allowed lockdowns of slots by megacorps.
The problem is that the jobs model throws JIT out of the window. I'm not sure that this is a necessary consequence of moving from slots to jobs.
In particular, I don't think it is a necessary consequence of advanced scheduling of jobs.
The compromise may be that a given batch loads in its minerals when it starts not when it is scheduled (which latter is my reading of what was said in the blog: everything up front at job schedule time, isk and minerals).
CCP's problem with JIT is that it seems to require a minerals check everytime a run starts (which as they say can be very frequent).
The problem with what they are proposing, as I read it, is that it goes to the other extreme and there is only a check at schedule time.
So the middle-way (still not ideal IMO compared to true JIT) is to have the minerals, comps, etc check fire when the batch job actually starts.
This could be hours or days after the job is scheduled. We would therefore also need a scheduled jobs update interface that tells the scheduler when his job is going to start.
This would allow a semi-JIT approach rather than what seems to be going to be a very heavily front-loaded manufacturing cycle.
S.
PS. I realise trade skills are relevant to JIT but this issue does not really specifically have anything to do with them. What it may do is make productivity research even more valuable as I suspect batch costs will be based on how long they are going to take (the only fair and meaningful way to charge factory fees in a job system). Aside from that, what new skills could be introduced? Perhaps an Advanced Mass Production allowing more than 6 jobs. Possibly a skill that reduces factory fees by a % (like Broker Relations/Accounting). I don't see why they would be objectionable. I also don't see why the proposed system needs any new skills at all.
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Rufus Roughneck
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:05:00 -
[16]
The move away from JIT model is needed to be able for the system to support other nice upgrades you've all been asking for all this time.
At least, that's what Oveur, lead dev of this game, told us.
Moving away from the JIT way means no more checks for minerals every single run, less variables, easier computation and less queries. I could very well imagine that that would open up other options, don't you ?
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Sendivogius
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:14:00 -
[17]
Yeah, I accept there is a system processing benefit and it enables good stuff.
Actually, rereading the blog it's a bit ambiguous.
You can read it that they are going to do exactly what I suggested as a 'compromise'.
I think that fears about efficiency loss are very legitimate though and it really isn't clear that the benefits outweigh the downsides.
They might. There again they might not.
As this is the economy and it's a pretty radical change, this will deeply impact the game for everybody.
Concerned people need to heavily test this when it gets onto SiSi. Which means something like real economy on SiSi (maybe in a single region?). I fear that's unlikely unfortunately.
S.
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Andrue
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Maya Rkell And Andrue? The trade skills HAVE destroyed the old trade markets, most of the traders I knew back then who were working the border regions are now sitting in Rens etc...they've forced people inwards and made it basically impossible to supply the edges of space.
..thus opening up many lucrative markets to smaller concerns. Through my alts I make a very sweet living trading in the fringes. The difficulty of supply has had the effect predicted - prices rose and now it's well worth the logistical effort.
My experience is that the player market is now a lot more accessible and more interesting. Probably it's because the megaproducers had to pull their speculative orders and concentrate on a smaller region. -- (Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:52:00 -
[19]
The way I read this is that manufacturing is going to become more complicated, more irritating and less productive because the current hardware can't handle the load and this new less player friendly system makes the game less enjoyable but easier on ccp's programmers.
In order to "compensate" for the pain & aggrivation there "fix" is going to cause they are going to throw a bone in the form of new production stations, which only a select minority will access, which *COULD* be completely and utterly usesless if its restricted to low sec, move a 200 bil bp to low sec station... right..., ship all the produced goods out of the low sec station... right..., or which *COULD* completely drive smaller corps out of the market if they provide too much of a competative edge.
/shrug
atm the info provided is so basic no one can really say whats going to happen, other then change which we will be asked to once again *gin & bear it, adapt"
So, for the moment, kick back, relax, fire up the BBQ and go roast a few roids or something.
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Summersnow
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Posted - 2005.10.27 12:55:00 -
[20]
One "benefit" of this system will be to give ccp a very easy throttle control to force production to diversify.
Too many people crowding Jita, crank the number of batch jobs down a notch and force alla producers into outlying systems.
blame it on "too many players' so people don;t realize there being manipulated as easily as they would if half the production slots dissapeared.
It also allows a new form of corp warfare. go into there main production station with a few frieghter loads of minies and que up jobs to blow out there production.
could get interesting.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.10.27 15:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: LOGINCHAR Right now I have factory that produce T1 frigates. With my skills and BPO I can produce 81 frigate/week. I usually put factory order for a few weeks and after that obtain minerals by remote buying or by buy orders. I am no longer need to be physically present to continue production.
Occasional physical presence is required for most activities in Eve, why should production be any different?
Originally by: LOGINCHAR My profit is just about 5K isk per frigate, 405K isk/week. This size of profit can not justify physical travel to the station to renew production when minerals run out.
Given you'll still be getting all your materials there via remote market orders anyway, all you need to do is move yourself there in a shuttle. A few jumps in a shuttle is hardly a huge effort. If it's more than a few jumps journey, how about producing where you actually are instead of half a region away?
Besides, those sort of margins make me wonder at your choice of product and location anyway.
Oh, and if you actually bother to read to the end of the dev blog on this subject, you'll see that the entire argument is likely to be acedemic anyway:
Originally by: dev blog New facilities will most likely be remotely manageable
Originally by: Derron Bel Frankly most T1 production doesn't make financial sense as-is. Something needs to be done but most conceivable changes will just result in prices setting to a new equilibrium with the same crappy profit margins. Can't do much about dumb players and loot sold to undercut.
What needs to happen is the T1 producers stop assuming they have a right to churn out endless amounts of product and have them all bought up at a good price in any location. It is perfectly possible to get decent (20-30%) profit margins on some T1 stuff, even if you're in a supposedly overcrowded market. And yes, this is on stuff that actually sells in quantity.
Originally by: Khatred I know one thing, if the next Gen manufacturing will screw over our production (as in I find out that the 2nd week I don't get in queues with all production or stuff like that) expect a even bigger scarcity in HAC's availability.
The kind of profits you can make on HAC's means the expense of running your own factory facility to get 100% slot reliability would be a drop in the ocean. You will no longer be tied to the NPC stations for your factory needs. There will be new options, make preparations to use them.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Scrammer
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Posted - 2005.10.27 15:48:00 -
[22]
Why would we want to stay with a majority of T1 stuff anyway?
It's time to advance! What society in history ever wanted to stay with their tier 1 technology?
Like they say...you gotta break some eggs if you want to make an omelete. Meaning, you can't advance without actually doing some extra work to take the next step.
It's just a common factor of evolving.
87.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot |
Megadon
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Posted - 2005.10.27 15:58:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Scrammer Why would we want to stay with a majority of T1 stuff anyway?
It's time to advance! What society in history ever wanted to stay with their tier 1 technology?
Like they say...you gotta break some eggs if you want to make an omelete. Meaning, you can't advance without actually doing some extra work to take the next step.
It's just a common factor of evolving.
As others have said, its not so much advancement as it is congestion management. The changes are not for the benefit of the players, they are for the benefit of being able to operate the system more effectively from CCP's perspective and thus reduce the server load.
I personally don't really care for the changes because they place restrictions on how you run your business and that is never a good thing.
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Chrimera
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Posted - 2005.10.27 16:24:00 -
[24]
Anything that raises the prices of goods can only be a good thing if you ask me. I have a friend who just started and he is making a fortune out of missions, and that because CCP flooded the world with isk. Its crazy!
When I joined up just after beta it took months and months to get into a battleship, now a day of missions for anyone playing more than a week can afford a battleship.
HUBRIS TECHNOLOGIES, SHAPING THE FUTURE |
Lokimon
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Posted - 2005.10.27 17:33:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't see the whine... to avoid resources being grabbed all at once, why not just put 100 productions in the queue, each a single-run production?
Stop and think about that for a minute.
How far up your butt does your head have to be for that to make sense?
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Hellspawn01
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Posted - 2005.10.27 17:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't see the whine... to avoid resources being grabbed all at once, why not just put 100 productions in the queue, each a single-run production?
100 1runs in 100 factorys. Who in this game has 100 factories?? BlogÖ |
The Cosmopolite
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Posted - 2005.10.27 18:17:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Originally by: Dark Shikari I don't see the whine... to avoid resources being grabbed all at once, why not just put 100 productions in the queue, each a single-run production?
100 1runs in 100 factorys. Who in this game has 100 factories??
More to the point, who has the ability to run more than 6 slots at the same time?
I'd happily bet isk that Mass Production will switch over to governing the number of jobs you can run and schedule at the same time... for eg. you can have 3 actually installed and another 3 scheduled or any permutation using the 6 that Industry + Mass Production V gives you.
Cosmo
Voice of the Freecaptains Jericho Fraction |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.27 19:02:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 27/10/2005 19:02:25 Historically, production has moved from batch production to JIT. CCP are moving the other way.
Why is JIT better? Because it is easier to manage, and gives far more control to the producer. This will prove true in Eve as much as the real world.
Matthew, you by your own admission are not a T2 producer. You are a T1 producer, and you have a lot of options. Your BPO's are not, generally, worth billions. You can make BPC's of your BPO's in a reasonable amount of time. You only have to worry about a far smaller amount of components - minerals - of your goods, rather than the whole ice/moon mining/component chain.
T2 producers do. T2 producers are saying this is going to affect production. If they're worried, I'm worried. Because if one of more of them quit, that means we're likely to have shortages of some fair important T2 goods.
Andrue, unfortunately if this were true it would of allready happened. Umfortunately, it hasn't and won't. It is NOT worth the logistical efforts because you simply cannot offer a deacent range of T1 goods, especially at the multiple locations required in a border region to make a deacent profit. I've seen people try, and when they gave up and went back to the central hubs, they made a smaller profit per-item, but a higher one overall!
As for people buying up items, in a lot of border regions there simply are not orders for a lot of items. It's not worth buyers time.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Rafein
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Posted - 2005.10.29 16:04:00 -
[29]
Of course, look at it from a market pint of view.
If more people are able to produce less ships, then price will edge upward as demand stretches supply, hence, the same profit would be available with fewer ships needing to be sold.
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Shadrin
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Posted - 2005.10.29 17:31:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Chrimera
When I joined up just after beta it took months and months to get into a battleship, now a day of missions for anyone playing more than a week can afford a battleship.
You must surely be joking. Where are these missions? I know I'm sure not making that kind of money. Unless of course you are talking about some super dork living in Mom's basement playing 12 hours a day, maybe a week is possible. MAYBE. ------------------------------------ -Shadrin
Buying large quantities of minerals and Thoraxes! Message me offers. |
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