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Andrea Griffin
474
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:22:00 -
[91] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Debora Tsung wrote:Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:There was a time, between freighter introduction and cyno-bridges (way before jumpfreighters), when 0.0 ppl hauled stuff in with large freighter convoys. I still have fraps footage of epic convois. That sounds awesome tbh. That's exactly what I imagined what our duties as alliance members would be when our corp first joined an alliance. Instead we got Structure bashing and cta's when yet another group of roamers got to close to us. We left a few months later. it wasn't awesome. it was a friggin' nerve trainwreck. Maybe a better solution would have been wormholes, having more miners / production types in your alliance, and changes to make nullsec more capable of independence.
The ease of logistics makes nullsec production rather meaningless. It's infinitely easier to mine, produce, and jump from highsec than it is to do anything in null. It's also incredibly safe if you're not a raging idiot. Null sec with good intel channels is in many ways safer than highsec, and definitely safer than low.
Anyway; imagine if cynos were removed. This would cause:
1. Nullsec systems that border empire space to be valuable, since they are the entry points. 2. The ability to exert some control over local markets, since moving goods in is more difficult. 3. Industrialists to have real importance to nullsec alliances. 4. Convoys to need escorts, which increases player-to-player interaction. 5. Alliances on the outer edges of null to look towards the gate keepers for non-aggression / protection agreements.
As far as gameplay experiences goes, I don't really see much of a downside. I can understand wanting to keep cynos though, since it makes things everything so darn easy and safe - but Eve isn't about easy or safe.
Besides: If the wormhole guys can figure out logistics, the great, powerful, all knowing nullsec alliances can manage somehow I'm sure. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
94
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:23:00 -
[92] - Quote
While an increase in conflict drivers is good, you have to look at the entire picture. Null sec has some issues already which need to be addressed. Too many of the conflict drivers mentioned would do more damage than than help. |
Othran
Route One
506
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:25:00 -
[93] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
Let me use a clichee: "the one who dosn't know the past is bound to repeat....." fill in the rest for yourself..
Ta for the advice. My Eve history started in May 2003. I know the past. You on the other hand live there. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14389
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:28:00 -
[94] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:So you are supplieing a region/alliance/market/corp with only 4 ppl and minimal risk right? Nope. Actually, yes, the risk is minimal since it's 7 jumps through highsec and the chances of a gank are zero due to the massive nerfs that ganking have received over the years. Still, the reason it's minimal risk is because we minimise it by the way we fly through those systems.
Quote:But in no way shape or form do i think this is GOOD for 0.0 logistics. What YOU can do every 0.0 big alliance can do, creating big problems and making 0.0 industry worthless. No. The worthlessness of null industry has nothing to do with the ease of logistics. In fact, if logistics were that easy, the null industry would be much more worth-while.
The problem of nullsec industry is that it is inherently worthless, and semi-easy logistics only makes ever so slightly less worthless. The solution is still to make null industry worth-while, at which point the ease of logistics becomes a non-issue anyway GÇö either way, going after the logistics is pointless or even harmful.
Quote:the solution is in my posting. you may not like it, but it worked BEFORE. It didn't particularly work, which is why we are where we are today, and it only GÇ£workedGÇ¥ to any extent at all because of the much smaller scale ofGǪ everything. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
baltec1
Bat Country
6693
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:28:00 -
[95] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
but it worked BEFORE.
We used carriers to jump in supplies. Convoys were only used by the big block players who could protect them.
How exactly do you think you can stop the PL super fleet? Or a goon suicide dread force? The game is not as it once was, when we did see convoys there were fewer carriers in the entire game than are currently in some corps. |
Andrea Griffin
474
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:36:00 -
[96] - Quote
Onomerous wrote:While an increase in conflict drivers is good, you have to look at the entire picture. Null sec has some issues already which need to be addressed. Too many of the conflict drivers mentioned would do more damage than than help. They are in the process of being addressed by your friendly CSM representatives. We have a really good CSM this year; I'm sure they will encourage changes that will make everyone happy and hopefully make the game as a whole a healthier, more interesting place. CCP Sreegs is my favorite developer. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9630
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:37:00 -
[97] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:
As far as gameplay experiences goes, I don't really see much of a downside. I can understand wanting to keep cynos though, since it makes things everything so darn easy and safe -
yeah cynos never get used to make things unsafe or uneasy
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9630
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:37:00 -
[98] - Quote
Andrea Griffin wrote:Onomerous wrote:While an increase in conflict drivers is good, you have to look at the entire picture. Null sec has some issues already which need to be addressed. Too many of the conflict drivers mentioned would do more damage than than help. They are in the process of being addressed by your friendly CSM representatives. We have a really good CSM this year; I'm sure they will encourage changes that will make everyone happy and hopefully make the game as a whole a healthier, more interesting place.
I can absolutely promise that the changes won't make everyone happy.
1 Kings 12:11
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Gwenywell Shumuku
45
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:38:00 -
[99] - Quote
@baltec1
you talked about living behind enemy lines and not beeing able to without JFs (or carriers before). Now, i told you that smaller entities lived near highsec BECAUSE of that problem. See the solution right there?
If you really think you live behind enemy lines because you have a JF or 2, think again. The enemy lets you live there, he can stomp you any day. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
9632
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:41:00 -
[100] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:@Tippia
But in no way shape or form do i think this is GOOD for 0.0 logistics. What YOU can do every 0.0 big alliance can do, creating big problems and making 0.0 industry worthless.
You've already been told that the problem is the massive imbalance between hisec and 0.0 industry, not the easy logistics that exposed that imbalance.
You've already had your absurd assertion that removing logistics would magically make 0.0 industry worthwhile taken apart. It won't. Logistics aren't the problem. You're like the guy who when he hears about a natural disaster on TV, "solves" the problem by switching the TV off.
1 Kings 12:11
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baltec1
Bat Country
6693
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:45:00 -
[101] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:@baltec1
you talked about living behind enemy lines and not beeing able to without JFs (or carriers before). Now, i told you that smaller entities lived near highsec BECAUSE of that problem. See the solution right there?
If you really think you live behind enemy lines because you have a JF or 2, think again. The enemy lets you live there, he can stomp you any day.
I lived in venal before JF came about for years. Deep in the middle of NC space. They tried to get rid of us many times and we fought them off. They sure as hell didn't want us living there.
You seem to not know the history of 0.0. |
Gwenywell Shumuku
45
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
@Malcanis
Living in your dreamworld yes? Stop trolling on important subjects maybe and i will take you seriously.
It has become MORE then clear in this thread that its a COMBINATION of factors influencing industry in 0.0. Your attempts to make your points (half of them trolled) look more valid is not really working.
Of course 0.0 stations have to be upped, and they are right now (not enough, but its a start). Logistics will be something to be reivsed too, as easy as that.
But hey, go on living in your black/white world, good luck with that. Poor CSM though, if you argue like you do here during CSM sessions....but maybe in person you wouldnt troll that much hm?
baltec1 wrote: I lived in venal before JF came about for years. Deep in the middle of NC space. They tried to get rid of us many times and we fought them off. They sure as hell didn't want us living there.
You seem to not know the history of 0.0.
Really beeing patient here, but what makes you think that this discussion revolves around your personal EGO of living in Venal? I don't really care. I don't even care if you think i know or don't anything about EvE, if i would have wanted to i would have posted with my MAIN no?
Its not about EGOs....try looking past that and coming back to interesting disussions. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
1920
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:49:00 -
[103] - Quote
Lots of "putting the cart before the horse here". Logistics is easier than it probably should be, but this is a balance with other factors of the game. Changes those factors to make "cutting supply lines" a viable part of the game without addressing the other factors and you get a dead(er) null sec. Change all the factors of the game to accommodate vulnerable supply lines and the gameplay that goes with it, you bascally rewrite the game and end up with massive unintended consequences.
Not that some change can't happen, but the idea that you can make 2013 EVE (with 400k characters on Tranqulity) magically look like 2003 EVE by getting rid of jump freighters and cynos etc etc is beyond crazy. Some things exist as they are because they have to, mess with that and you create more problems than you solved.
This is just like every "get rid of local" discussion I've ever seen, as if getting rid of one thing (local) in a complex interconnected system is the answer to everything and no bad consequences will ensue lol. Local (like EVE's current jumping and logistics mechanics) can be called overpowered, but at this point it's also a necessary evil because doing away with it (without fixing the myriad in-game factors that make it necessary) would be worse than having local. |
Othran
Route One
506
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:58:00 -
[104] - Quote
Stop feeding the troll peeps |
Gwenywell Shumuku
45
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Posted - 2013.05.29 14:58:00 -
[105] - Quote
@Jenn
You are smarter then this, you already have proven that in your posts. Nobody, really nobody is advocating for a "sudden change".
But yea, lets look at that "get rid of local" problem. How long have wie cried about that? Now, are we not EVER closer to that reality because the goal of getting rid of local (see past fanfests on how ccp agrees that this has to happen someday) was recognized and worked on? Todays scanning mechanics (changes in Ody.) indicate that we are getting there.
The same will happen with 0.0 industry/logistics, agreeing that its too easy right now is a start. I'm fighting the ones who think its not, as i don't agree with them. I have seen otherwise, i liked it more. |
baltec1
Bat Country
6693
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:02:00 -
[106] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:Really beeing patient here, but what makes you think that this discussion revolves around your personal EGO of living in Venal? I don't really care. I don't even care if you think i know or don't anything about EvE, if i would have wanted to i would have posted with my MAIN no? Its not about EGOs....try looking past that and coming back to interesting disussions.
Try listening to people WHO LIVED IN THE TIMES YOU SPEAK OF AND KNOW WHAT HAPPENED.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14389
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:03:00 -
[107] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:The same will happen with 0.0 industry/logistics, agreeing that its too easy right now is a start. GǪand the question is why anyone should (or would) agree with it when it's not really a problem to begin with, and that the issue at play here is one of industrial imbalance.
Solve that problem and the supposed ease of JF logistics becomes irrelevant.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
94
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:12:00 -
[108] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:as if getting rid of one thing in a complex interconnected system is the answer to everything and no bad consequences will ensue lol.
This a million times over. Any idea with simple, quick or easy in it is already a failure. It's the primary reason I believe in a 'leave it the frack alone' position normally.
(original post edited to remove a single idea but the main concept remains intact) |
Gwenywell Shumuku
45
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:16:00 -
[109] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:The same will happen with 0.0 industry/logistics, agreeing that its too easy right now is a start. GǪand the question is why anyone should (or would) agree with it when it's not really a problem to begin with, and that the issue at play here is one of industrial imbalance. Solve that problem and the supposed ease of JF logistics becomes irrelevant.
Thats where i think you are too focused on one aspect or got too late into this discussion (= read tread)
I see logistics as PvP opportunity, too. Logistics IN SPACE is (or should, in my opinion) be a central part of living in 0.0 just like other activities that take place (ratting, mining, anos, whatever). Thats where this discussion comes from, look at the title and page 1 of this tread, yes?
@baltec1
really dude calm down now, always remember: "you don't know who you are talking to on a forum...". Don't throw around accusations. |
Tarsas Phage
Freight Club Whores in space
202
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:16:00 -
[110] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:@Malcanis
Living in your dreamworld yes? Stop trolling on important subjects maybe and i will take you seriously.
It has become MORE then clear in this thread that its a COMBINATION of factors influencing industry in 0.0. Your attempts to make your points (half of them trolled) look more valid is not really working.
Of course 0.0 stations have to be upped, and they are right now (not enough, but its a start). Logistics will be something to be reivsed too, as easy as that.
But hey, go on living in your black/white world, good luck with that. Poor CSM though, if you argue like you do here during CSM sessions....but maybe in person you wouldnt troll that much hm?
I wouldn't look at the whole subject of "0.0 Logistics" as narrowly as you are.
Logistics to anywhere encompasses so many reasons, from the mundane as personal to the alliance or coalition levels.
Malcanis isn't trolling, although I think he might be a bit exasperated. He's right, however, that in the past including right now 0.0 industry is just not provisioned to support the requirements of the larger corps and entities which live there. You can have all the toons mining all the minerals you could ever need locally, however you will still be bottlenecked in your product output by a very finite number of slots. It's enough of a bottleneck to dissuade serious use of these slots. The only other way around this is to sink more towers with assembly arrays, and with that comes a real, recurring monetary cost. It is indeed cheaper at that point to freight your needs in. So, yes, he is indeed correct when he points out that the proliferation of JF use is the symptom of a deeper problem, and not the cause of it.
In the end, however, it comes down to cost. Maybe it turns more manufacturing slots wouldn't be the answer everyone seeks. Even if I had all the slots in the world available to me, there's still a cost with getting the minerals needed to plug into them... it just might be the case that it would still be cheaper, in terms of both time and ISK, to continue to buy these items on the market in empire and ship them out. Time is too important to overlook here, and there are tangible costs of sorts associated with it, in RL and in-game.
I can say, as a person who has cracked open the hulls of many 0.0 alliance members' JFs and freighters, that for the most part they are hauling on the personal or corp level. Some bloke shipping his week's worth of anomaly loot to Jita, or shipping out a few doctrine ships+fittings so he can have something for the next fleet ping. Now and then we'll peg someone hauling what seems to be his own stuff mixed with a few courier contracts from corpmates destined for Jita 4-4. Whatever the case, major hauling for the alliance level is generally done by a dedicated few groups and in en-masse, bursty sessions.
As an aside, remember one instance where we intercepted a freighter completely packed (and I mean level 5 freighter skills packed) with 425mm railguns. He jumped it from highsec to lowsec in order to get it to a station where he could then divvy it up amongst some JFs and jump it all out to 0.0. Best 28B I ever made, and this was before the drone poo nerf. I kinda get misty-eyed when I think about how much that drop would be worth today. So yeah, there's one good reason for me to keep minerals flowing in the direction of 0.0 from empire ;) |
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March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
697
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:18:00 -
[111] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec? YOU are CSM member. YOU say us: why YOU ask CCP to buff industry in 0.0 if there is no reward of doing industry there.
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baltec1
Bat Country
6693
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:20:00 -
[112] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:
@baltec1
really dude calm down now, always remember: "you don't know who you are talking to on a forum...". Don't throw around accusations.
I do know who I am talking to.
I am talking to someone who has no idea about the games history and thinks screwing over small alliances is a good thing. |
Alphea Abbra
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
240
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:25:00 -
[113] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:Malcanis wrote:What's the reward for manufacturing in 0.0 instead of hisec? YOU are CSM member. YOU say us: why YOU ask CCP to buff industry in 0.0 if there is no reward of doing industry there. You just answered that yourself. The buff is needed because there are no rewards for 0.0 industry. Then maybe, if the combined effect of making 0.0 industry viable and/or either adding costs or effort to HS industry, 0.0 industry becomes a thing. In such a case, HS imported goods would no longer be an issue - because 0.0 would be able to supply itself. |
Haulie Berry
804
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:29:00 -
[114] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Malcanis wrote:Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?
The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form. http://eve-kill.net/?a=home&scl_id=600There sure are a lot of "completely immune to attack in any meaningful form" ships dying out there. Yeah because titans are supply ships.
Confuseddoglook.jpg |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14390
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:29:00 -
[115] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:Thats where i think you are too focused on one aspect or got too late into this discussion (= read tread) Maybe if you read the thread, you'd understand why this isn't the case.
Making logistics harder reduces the number of PvP opportunities as the only result will be a further consolidation of industry to highsec. Making nullsec industry better increases the number of PvP opportunities since there will be more obvious and free targets to attack.
Either way, the ease of logistics is not the problem. Actually, let's specify that a bit. nullsec logistics is not the problem GÇö highsec logistics, on the other handGǪ
Quote:Thats where this discussion comes from GǪand why it's deeply misinformed: because it mistakes symptom for cause; because it doesn't look at the big picture; because it ignores history and a decade worth of experience. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
Gwenywell Shumuku
45
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:32:00 -
[116] - Quote
@Tarsas
I agree with you an the problems of 0.0 industry, of course, why on earth would we ship all the stuff in freighter convois previously no? ;) It always was a problem, but it generated NEW content at least, convoys to attack. Thats basically gone.
The thing is, if thats how it is (and it always was), at least we had a chance to disrupt that practice before everything "jump" became way to common, more common then EVER intended by CCP (you know, when they thought Titans would stay rare?).
I think JFs are a solution for a percieved problem back when Titans got used for bridging convoys. Only a few big blocks had Titans back then, so the necessity arose to make it easier for everyone else as there was a REAL fear that one entity could dominate through "capital ship superiority".
Now, we know how that turned out, everything "jump" is just common and no problem anymore. Maybe its time to revisit the solution to a problem that no longer exists? (see tread title).
P.S. i disagree on mal. trolling however, just look at page 1 of the tread, the first 2 of his 3 responses where trolls. I know its best practise on a forum, but i played nice for long enough, the moment he tries to put words in my mouth i didnt say its time to ignore him. |
iskflakes
481
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:43:00 -
[117] - Quote
The problem lies in 0.0 industry lacking in low end minerals, build slots and mining safety. At least two of those are being addressed in odyssey and the mining safety issue isn't an issue in some cases. Increasing fuel prices will make jump freighters more costly to use, so more work will be done locally (which is good).
Logistics is, even with jump freighters, a massive pain in the ass. I say this as somebody who's done 0.0 industry, including jump freighting raw materials around. Moving freighters is an even bigger problem -- it's incredibly time consuming and risky. I don't see anything in 0.0 that justifies that level of effort. If you make logistics harder, rather than creating logistics convoys to attack you're just going to depopulate the less profitable regions, which is most of them.
Regarding the claim that jump freighters are "unkillable", they're not. Many of them die. You can disrupt their activity by camping the station undock with bumping ships or bubbles if in nullsec. If they're jumping to towers you can camp local, they won't be able to do anything. - |
Gwenywell Shumuku
46
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:44:00 -
[118] - Quote
@Tippia
then we will have to agree to disagree.
You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production.
Now, you can rewrite the system to make 0.0 production way better then highsec production to compensate for the risk of storing material, bpo/bpcs and stuff in 0.0, OR/AND you can add cost to logistics again so that highsec prices for goods get additional logistics costs to compete with 0.0 production.
But hey, i'm not here to convert you, but as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits).
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Arcelian
House of Praetor R O G U E
16
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Posted - 2013.05.29 15:47:00 -
[119] - Quote
If about 11% of eve players live in null, and can only reasonably produce about 5% of what they need... Did CCP expect less people to live in null?
When did having to import from high-sec, become a "problem"?
Seems to me like it at least, was, working as intended. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14390
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 15:51:00 -
[120] - Quote
Gwenywell Shumuku wrote:You can improve 0.0 industry, sure, and its the right thing to do. But if logistics come with basically 0 cost 0.0 will still have to compete with highsec production. The only place where logistics come with zero costs is in highsec, which is part of the massive industry imbalance that means null industry can't ever compete.
In highsec, jump capable ships are not an issue and you can attack those supply lines.
Quote:as you notice i see easy logistics differently then you, for me it is a vailabe factor (and it would have PvP benefits). GǪand any solution to the actual problem with GÇ£solveGÇ¥ the supposed problem of easy logistics as a side-effect. So going after the rather irrelevant symptom rather than the cause is downright wasteful and would only serve to make everyone's lives more miserable. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.-á |
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