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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14684
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Posted - 2013.06.09 00:29:00 -
[121] - Quote
Sassums wrote:Or CCP could spend some money and assign a server more capable or running a higher population cap. Why should they waste money on such a short-sighted and limited solution? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Haulie Berry
993
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 00:45:00 -
[122] - Quote
Sassums wrote:People have better things to do than to play jump games hoping they will be allowed into the system next.
Obviously they don't.
Again, the root problem here is that idiots think they "need" to go to Jita, and are willing to queue up to do it. |
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
238
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 00:45:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tippia wrote:AtomYcX wrote:Forgive me if I've missed something but why can't you just throw a bit more hardware at the Jita node? Surely if it's hitting the limit the sensible option would be to beef up the hardware behind that particular node until you can handle the required load? Or is it actually the case that you've hit a limitation in the code that handles ships in space, and it's not a hardware issue? I think it's more that history has shown that it's not a sustainable solution. Throw more hardware at it and people fill it up again, so you have to throw more hardware at it, so people fill it upGǪ GǪand soon, you have an EVE cluster where 90% of the investment is in the Jita node and everything else is languishing. Instead, they seem to be focusing on solutions that help all systems, and Jita in particular, by improving the performance of the kind of work that slows that node down. Do you want to throw increasingly large amounts of money at the diminishing returns that more hardware offer, just to solve this unsolvable problem for one system, or do you learn from that one system and improve your code in a way that benefits the entire cluster? The whole Gǣbrain in a boxGǥ solution should help any part of the game where there's a lot of pilot set-ups going on (e.g. large fleet jumps/warp-ins and systems with lots of undocking and jumpingGǪ such as Jita), and while the work done for that certainly costs as well, it is a more long-term solution that affects much more than just a single solar system.
The issue isn't hardware in itself, but as long as the game mechanics don't change, the only solution is to keep adding hardware.
Just like rubbernecking at wrecks slows traffic, no matter how police trying to move people along, folks will still want to gravitate to the site to have a look.
It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.
Other games don't limit sales to local zones and this Jita problem is the reason. If WoW had what EvE has, the crush of players selling/buying in only faction capital cities would crash the realms daily. Blizzard even diversified the capital cities to the extent of killing off dungeons in MoP (instead of standing in Stormwind and queuing up for them all day) to get players back into the world. It takes such drastic measures to get folks out of a "comfort zone", because they won't change on their own...the PEZ is too good to resist.
Each region has it's own trade "capital", there's really no excuse to not diversify players out of Jita, unless -- again -- it's a hardware/tech issue and one CCP would rather control in one area, instead of letting it creep to different zones. As it will creep, as the mechanics in the game help cause it.
Real solutions aren't going to come without "comfort zone" changes and without changing the trade mechanics so this doesn't keep happening. "In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." ~George Orwell
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
14684
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Posted - 2013.06.09 00:51:00 -
[124] - Quote
Ace Uoweme wrote:The issue isn't hardware in itself, but as long as the game mechanics don't change, the only solution is to keep adding hardware. Eh, no. As already mentioned by the devs, there are other, far better solutions. Redesigning the software to work around its current limitations is far more likely to yield far greater, far more long-lasting, and far more wide-reaching benefits.
In fact, hardware is probably the least useful (and least possible) of all solutions.
Quote:Other games don't limit sales to local zones GǪand neither does EVE. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Haulie Berry
993
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 00:57:00 -
[125] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Quote:Other games don't limit sales to local zones GǪand neither does EVE.
You're apparently not familiar with this one. He's a themeparker with a preternatural inability to "get" Eve, and is probably hoping the Jita "problem" will be "fixed" by allowing him to purchase anything from anywhere via a universal market and have it delivered to his hangar.
Quote:It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.
As previously mentioned, the people who are just parked aren't actually the problem. Markets, chat, etc. aren't actually on the same node, and an object merely existing in Jita doesn't actually consume all that many clock cycles. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
485
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 03:17:00 -
[126] - Quote
Psychoactive Stimulant wrote:Even making Jita a 0.8 system would give another like 5 or so seconds to a gank right? Even that would help the game a lot. Eve needs more ganks, not fewer. More ganks mean higher prices for everyone (good thing) and fewer idiots mining jita belts (i've seen em, you have too).
Also, maybe removing the clone facilities from the system would help too (i didn't read all the posts, this may have been suggested already).
You really think combat takes less CPU cycle to handle than a ship just passing by? |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
435
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 03:29:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Asptar Monastair wrote:Oxide Ammar wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. Half of jita residents are spamming bots, they are useless and killing the fun for the rest of us. you need to introduce something to keep the traffic flowing. Idea: first ~30 min docked in Jita is free, next the clock will be ticking and Concord will charge you ISK for staying more. Make the parking fee for someone staying like 6 hrs idle is big to teach people value of time. Seeing as how markets and contracts and everything is handled on a different node, and chat is on a completely different service altogether, I would say the most work being done by the node would be on the ships in space. So reducing spammers and other docked activities probably wouldn't make much difference. I could be totally wrong though. You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out. I think you might need to overclock some nodes I Endorse this Product and/or Service EVE Online Battle Recorder When I press F1 I get ISK |
JamnOne
Jammin Corp
5
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Posted - 2013.06.09 03:59:00 -
[128] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:CONCORD should blow up anyone loitering at the gate.
Obviously they're up to no good.
Nah - Concord should hire a bunch of players to clear off the gate and keep the traffic moving smoothly. They can earn positive security status as they would be performing a community service. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
525
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 04:08:00 -
[129] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. Maybe you should do something about spam bots rather than punish people actually trying to play the game.
THIS.. half of jita residents are just scam / spam bots. im not against scamming, but in Jita it means a serious problem if there is a limit of players. Those bots just occupy free slots from this limit and they actually dont play a game. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Jack Tronic
borkedLabs
99
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Posted - 2013.06.09 04:34:00 -
[130] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.
You mean spamming.
Absolutely no chat happens in Jita local.
You know why?
Because its all bots spamming ads and scams.
Chribba has gathered evidence for a long time with his public chat logger for Jita local and nothing has been done.
It's extremely obvious as heck when the same character spams the same message for > 12 hours its a bot.
I'm not even saying its contributing to any server load, I'm just stating that Jita local is useless and may as well be removed due to the fact the number of bots in the channel list compete with the number of bots in certain corps in null.
Edit:
Lets bring out some statistics you cannot deny. Collected by Chribba.
http://themittani.com/features/chribbas-jita-spam-bot-research
http://eve-files.com/chribba/jita2012/ (actual data)
Quote:The top poster said something 58,724 times and 99.93% of it was repetition, only 40 different unique posts. This single character accounted for 1.83% of EVERYTHING said in Jita local over the span of six months
Quote:Not to mention the fact that CSM candidate(s) were using these obvious bots. |
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AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
57
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Posted - 2013.06.09 04:36:00 -
[131] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Noddy Comet wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system. Yet they add to the total population limit, correct? There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.
So instead of the useful population of Jita being what the face value is by banning Y amount of spambots, it remains at facevalue - y and CCP is content with this status? James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Guards
330
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Posted - 2013.06.09 04:48:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. I don't really care one way or the other as I don't use Jita, but what about upping the hardware? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8 |
TharOkha
0asis Group
525
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 05:21:00 -
[133] - Quote
Jack Tronic wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system. You mean spamming. Absolutely no chat happens in Jita local. You know why? Because its all bots spamming ads and scams. Chribba has gathered evidence for a long time with his public chat logger for Jita local and nothing has been done. It's extremely obvious as heck when the same character spams the same message for > 12 hours its a bot. I'm not even saying its contributing to any server load, I'm just stating that Jita local is useless and may as well be removed due to the fact the number of bots in the channel list compete with the number of bots in certain corps in null. Edit:Lets bring out some statistics you cannot deny. Collected by Chribba. http://themittani.com/features/chribbas-jita-spam-bot-researchhttp://eve-files.com/chribba/jita2012/ (actual data) Quote:The top poster said something 58,724 times and 99.93% of it was repetition, only 40 different unique posts. This single character accounted for 1.83% of EVERYTHING said in Jita local over the span of six months Quote:Not to mention the fact that CSM candidate(s) were using these obvious bots.
I sense conspiracy . Jita has become spam/scam-bot paradise, Chribba has provided obvious proof long ago, CCP ignores it in a long run.
They set up the limit for whole Jita instead, because punish players that actually PLAY is much easier than solve the problem with Jita bots once and for all. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
rswfire
Firesworn Firesworn Nation
110
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Posted - 2013.06.09 05:38:00 -
[134] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.
I don't know if it's just me, but it seems like this problem is actually getting worse in the past few weeks. Whenever I log in a character that's stationed in Jita, the log in system tries to get me to move to another system. I won't. I hit ESC and continue to spam until I get in, just like the people do at the gates. I assume this spamming adds some measure of traffic to your nodes also?
The explanation you give is logical and truthful, but it's also only logical and truthful because you don't have the hardware and/or software and/or optimization to make it better. Why don't you address the underlying issue instead so that TiDi does not occur for 2000 pilots? This not only serves Jita but those massive engagements in 0.0, etc.
Just. Fix this. Please. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYAz0aWEzpw http://www.firesworn.com/index.php?/topic/69-about-firesworn-nation/
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Valen Drax
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2013.06.09 06:38:00 -
[135] - Quote
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. I don't really care one way or the other as I don't use Jita, but what about upping the hardware?
Throwing more hardware at it is not the solution. As it has been said right now the server side is not multithreaded. So that 8 core super chip is only offering one core to Jita...period. You could toss all the chips as you want at Jita, it would not make a difference. They could of course instance Jita...but that would offer way more issues.
More than that, each time someone enters, exits, docks or undocks in the system the system has to recalculate everything that is moderated by skills. This adds even more load that is only going through a single core.
To really make changes they need to have a fully functioning multithread and separate the character calculations from the ship activities. Additionally people need an incentive to spread out a little. Logic would dictate that if Jita is full...maybe people would spread to other hubs. But as it is they stubbornly sit out site wasting time and processor cycles.
So may be Jita needs a hefty entry toll. May be taxes need to be increased to make it less profitable. I do not know this one, but whatever the case, players need to spread out from Jita and move to other hubs to spread the load. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
435
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 06:44:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:People sitting in station chatting contribute practically zero load to the machine running the solar system.
Oh well, no problem, they are just innocent spambots then, and you've included them into your calculations :
CCP Explorer wrote:There are X pilots causing load and Y spambots. The cap is at X+Y.
What about still removing them, you know, because botting is a bannable offense ?
G££ <= Me |
Joan Greywind
I Moan ALOT We Moan ALOT
6
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Posted - 2013.06.09 06:46:00 -
[137] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Delen Ormand wrote:I can't find the link now, but apparently ships that are on autopilot have priority in the queue.
Oh, and the higher the value of your cargo the better, too.. Agreed. Frieghters with higher value cargo and are on autopilot have priority. They should always be primary(ied).
confirmed I read this somewhere, but for the life of me cant find it |
Oxide Ammar
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 06:47:00 -
[138] - Quote
I don't mind if all the cap used by people that actually using Jita hub, that's good ...why ? because I know they are there to place buy orders or hauling their products to sell they are leaving as soon as they finish what they are doing unlike spamming bots. |
Patrakele
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
109
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Posted - 2013.06.09 08:08:00 -
[139] - Quote
Some can't take a hint that they are not wlecome in Jita. |
Oxide Ammar
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 08:32:00 -
[140] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Tippia wrote:Quote:Other games don't limit sales to local zones GǪand neither does EVE. You're apparently not familiar with this one. He's a themeparker with a preternatural inability to "get" Eve, and is probably hoping the Jita "problem" will be "fixed" by allowing him to purchase anything from anywhere via a universal market and have it delivered to his hangar. Quote:It's both a mechanics issue (trade alts of various stripes and skills parked in one area for convenience in selling), and human nature in a social game.
As previously mentioned, the people who are just parked aren't actually the problem. Markets, chat, etc. aren't actually on the same node, and an object merely existing in Jita doesn't actually consume all that many clock cycles.
What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that. |
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Sipphakta en Gravonere
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
146
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Posted - 2013.06.09 09:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
Oxide Ammar wrote:What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that.
You should try understanding what the Devs said, the population cap s already calculated with the chatters/botters in mind:
Now:
Space for real players: 1600
500 "Botters" (Just to demonstrate, number mustn't be true) 1600 Real players 2100 Population Cap
CCP removes the "Botters":
Space for real players is still 1600
1600 Real Players 1600 Population Cap
Nothing would change for people trying to get in. I wish I were a cat. That way, I could kill things and people would applaud - instead of screaming out "OH GOD NO, NOT MY DAUGHTER!" |
Robus Muvila
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
423
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 09:08:00 -
[142] - Quote
Seriously if I was a game dev it's the threads like this that would make me want to shave my head and take to the rooftops. Here are the cliffnotes for the traders that have worked themselves into a frenzy
- Jita is a near permanently reinforced that is already stretched to capacity.
- Spambots are not contributing to the problem
- Spambots are not interfering with the population cap
- The only things doing this is the intensely heavy traffic of ships in flight in space
Is it really so bad to finally admit that the heart of the economy of a whole galaxy has outgrown one starsystem? Surely that is a positive reflection on the sheer juggernaut capitalism that you traders and industrialists drive. TMC Senior Developer http://themittani.com - Because EvE has needed a proper news site for ages |
Oxide Ammar
Aurora Security Transstellar Operations
5
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Posted - 2013.06.09 09:51:00 -
[143] - Quote
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:Oxide Ammar wrote:What part of this thread you didn't understand ? no one is complaining that spamming bots are causing lags. What are we saying these spamming bots are occupying slots of the Jita cap population. Since they are useless to the rest of EVE community they should deal with that. You should try understanding what the Devs said, the population cap s already calculated with the chatters/botters in mind: Now: Space for real players: 1600 500 "Botters" (Just to demonstrate, number mustn't be true) 1600 Real players 2100 Population Cap CCP removes the "Botters": Space for real players is still 1600 1600 Real Players 1600 Population Cap Nothing would change for people trying to get in.
OK so the cap is variable value based on the Botters in Jita, how is the system differentiate between real players and Botters ?
- everyone posting in local chat, system is considering them as Botters. - anyone is posting in local chat with constant time intervals between his posts. - anyone is docked up considered as Botter. - anyone who is afk and docked at Jita is considered as Botter.
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Djana Libra
The Black Ops S2N Citizens
238
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 12:30:00 -
[144] - Quote
Wes Vyvorant wrote: Ffs ccp just fix jita already. I am not paying to sit at a gate spamming buttons. And While your at it remove local chat cause its unusable anyway.
Well go sell and buy somewhere else, its not that hard.
And please CCP just remove the cap, let them deal with extreme tidi maybe then people will use other systems to trade, sell etc. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1949
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 14:44:00 -
[145] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Asptar Monastair wrote:Oxide Ammar wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. Half of jita residents are spamming bots, they are useless and killing the fun for the rest of us. you need to introduce something to keep the traffic flowing. Idea: first ~30 min docked in Jita is free, next the clock will be ticking and Concord will charge you ISK for staying more. Make the parking fee for someone staying like 6 hrs idle is big to teach people value of time. Seeing as how markets and contracts and everything is handled on a different node, and chat is on a completely different service altogether, I would say the most work being done by the node would be on the ships in space. So reducing spammers and other docked activities probably wouldn't make much difference. I could be totally wrong though. You would be absolutely right. Market, contracts and chat are on other nodes. The load in Jita is primarily traffic related, pilots docking/undocking/jumping-in/jumping-out. Then why is the cap on total players? It should always allow me to log in if Im already docked, and just block undocking. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Demolishar
United Aggression
887
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 14:46:00 -
[146] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote: Then why is the cap on total players? It should always allow me to log in if Im already docked, and just block undocking.
:effort: |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Aegis Solaris
1949
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 14:48:00 -
[147] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. Maybe you should do something about spam bots rather than punish people actually trying to play the game. See my reply above, they don't contribute that much to load. So not the point. ANY load from a EULA violator is unacceptable. Get rid of them. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Algurmane
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 15:44:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour.
Here is a thought, buy a bigger better game server. Don't tell us you can't afford it. This "Time Diliation" should be a great big hint your equipment is a little out dated. |
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
2303
|
Posted - 2013.06.09 15:48:00 -
[149] - Quote
Algurmane wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. Here is a thought, buy a bigger better game server. Don't tell us you can't afford it. This "Time Diliation" should be a great big hint your equipment is a little out dated.
It's not the hardware, it's the software, Jita is on the biggest thing the software can presently exploit.
Shouldn't you be defending Fountain instead of worrying about Jita?
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |
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CCP Explorer
C C P C C P Alliance
1551
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Posted - 2013.06.09 15:53:00 -
[150] - Quote
TharOkha wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:CCP Explorer wrote:Tippia wrote:Nah. It's a good mix of performance and accessibility as it is. This. If we up the limit then Time Dilation starts to kick in more aggressively than it does now. It will with the current limit drop to 80% approx. every 15 minutes on average during peak hour. Maybe you should do something about spam bots rather than punish people actually trying to play the game. THIS.. half of jita residents are just scam / spam bots. im not against scamming, but in Jita it means a serious problem if there is a limit of players. Those bots just occupy free slots from this limit and they actually dont play a game. Already replied to this in the thread. Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Software Director | EVE Universe, EVE Online // CCP Games | @erlendur |
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