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LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Jokers Wild.
36
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Posted - 2013.06.10 16:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Recently several members of my corporation has used the buddy program to get their friends into the game. Great thing is with all the ship balancing is their is option with every hull and every race to have them in a relevant ship type for any fleet comp. They are always heading to low sec and losing ships, but now getting some kills, which is good fun for them.
My fear is very simple, Missions suck. When I was 90 days old or less I used an armor cane to run lvl4's. I had to continuously warp in and out and it may take me the whole time of the bonus pay to finish the mission. I also had to switch out to a bs to finish the site. But it was possible for me as a new player to develop a way for me to do lvl4's. I used the cane to pop frigates and then some cruisers, even pulling agro carefully. Maybe only killing one or two ships at first until I drop enough dps to make it work. Finishing the mission with a BS to take out all the large bs after most frigates were off field. I lost a lot of ships doing this, but i had fun.
The new AI is here to stay and is better than the old completely boring system. But the payouts on lvl4's is so low even with super shiny ships the pay is low. The payout on lvl1's through lvl3's is very low as well. My concern is it is hard to mission for a few hours as a new player and then be able to afford both new skills books and losing a ship in low sec by ship I mean a frigate.
Too much isk being in eve is not the issue of a new player, CCP broke eve with incursions, then FW, and True sec and capital nerf's allowed super power blocks to develop in null sec.
Much ship balancing has been done but was needed very badly, since I joined people have been demanding ship balancing, and we got station walking instead. CCP has refocused on the game and making it better, but one change I believe has hurt eve a lot. I play eve and stayed for two reasons, my first war decks were fun and overpowering, I decided I wanted to get revenge. But the other pragmatical concern is isk and how to make it. Old bitter vets could help me in lvl4's which i had the standings for but could not do or solo, taught to to read eve survival and how to kill spawns tags last. Since then CCP has nerf'd missions a lot, even changed how standings work, mission quality and so on. All steps have decreased what all players can make in missions.
Also another concern is faction standings restricting corporation standings with npc's. CCP has promoted Faction Warfare a great deal but for a completely new player FW is not the best option. They get bad standings in empires and have no isk, and need help to fix their faction standings back to zero, but even if they have Caldari Navy standings at or above 2,3,5 they are unable to get any other missions than a lvl1. CCP has allowed people to fix standings with security tags, why not let a negative faction standing toon running missions for a corporation within that faction to fix that standing.
I believe CCP will address this issue but too late to save the new players of today, making it harder to get more new players of tomorrow to join eve. My concern is that if these are not addressed or even address in a DEV blog that some may leave eve finding nothing to do or finding it too difficult to over come some of their new player mistakes. Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have.-á |
Gaston Juli
Maximus Virtus
0
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Posted - 2013.06.10 16:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
I see that your problem is isk.
CCP has not touched missions in quite a while now, apart from the new AI. I agree with you that a bit of love is needed but missioning is not the only way for isk.
You say incursions broke eve. How so? It added new content and there are sites u can do in frigates and cruisers.
I understand your argument, and sorry if the response seems short, but remember, EVE is hard by default and patience is the greatest virtue to have. |
Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
993
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Posted - 2013.06.10 17:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Getting bored of high sec mission running? Try something more rewarding and exciting. Oh god. |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8010
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Posted - 2013.06.10 18:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mission rewards need to be buffed in order to help offset all the nerfs to loot drops.
First it was a reduction of wrecks holding loot, then it was a reduction of salvage from wrecks. Then Metal scraps replaced loot drops. Then stock modules were removed along with Drone loot. Then wrecks holding loot was once again reduced and the cycle continued.
NPC bounty also needs to be raised as well. Rogue Drones eventually got a bounty placed on them after the removal of their loot drops, however they still need to drop some loot to bring them in par with the other NPC's.
The main reason for this is due to Soundwave & Company's obsession to eliminate Gun Mining in order to encourage regular Mining of Asteroid belts/Grav sites which in turn creates more viable (easy) PvP targets for gankers. Of course that's a topic for another thread.
DMC
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Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
996
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Posted - 2013.06.10 18:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Or maybe it's to get people out of high sec. Oh god. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
102
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Posted - 2013.06.10 18:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
L4 mission rewards are just fine. With max skills, salvaging mission wrecks, and buying the right LP items and reselling; nets players a tidy profit. If you can't make at least 50mil + per hour, you are doing it wrong. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
475
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Posted - 2013.06.10 19:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:L4 mission rewards are just fine. With max skills, salvaging mission wrecks, and buying the right LP items and reselling; nets players a tidy profit. If you can't make at least 50mil + per hour, you are doing it wrong. I kind of agree. While there are things that can be seen as issues, profitability isn't one of them. For relatively safe, relaxed and reliable source of income, L4 missions net a good profit. |
LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Jokers Wild.
37
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Posted - 2013.06.10 22:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:L4 mission rewards are just fine. With max skills, salvaging mission wrecks, and buying the right LP items and reselling; nets players a tidy profit. If you can't make at least 50mil + per hour, you are doing it wrong.
So you kinda missed completely what I am saying. I am saying is one of the first things I did in eve for isk was missions and I hauled for miners, we split the ore. Mining barges can haul on their own now. CCP fixed how easy it was to gank barges and gave miners options that did not break the game. But most pvp'ers started out in missions or both missions and mining. You described max skills and a combination of techniques. For those players who decide mining is great and stay in game, they can make some great income. But for those who would prefer to not train any industry skills missions are now not a viable option. I believe this is short sighted.
Also I joined FW as a brand new player too until I learn, I was completely dumb and needed to return to my old corp. My pvp skills or knowledge was zero. These people should have an option of running lvl4's in say Caldari space for a Mini corp and fix their standings or any other Race. CCP already has these options in all empires but now if you are negative or shoot on site in one empire you can not run any other mission than lvl1's.
I want to help new players and keep these people in my corporation, but to be fair many times their options is low. I am sure I am not the only person who thought mining was boring but stayed because a Bitter Vet showed them how to make isk in missions and help grind standings and shared loot with them. Before the Noctis one option was offer services as a salvager. I did this in my dessie.
New players have options in ship classes and viable tech one combat. Support frigates, and cruisers are great for what they are, and likewise all Cruisers and ship classes have uses so new players can pvp. But CCP has left out how they can afford their pvp and skill books.
I am writting this because I want to address what I see as an issue for new players. Not to make me more isk or make it easier for max skilled pilots. Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have.-á |
LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Jokers Wild.
37
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Posted - 2013.06.10 22:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Barrogh Habalu wrote:Estella Osoka wrote:L4 mission rewards are just fine. With max skills, salvaging mission wrecks, and buying the right LP items and reselling; nets players a tidy profit. If you can't make at least 50mil + per hour, you are doing it wrong. I kind of agree. While there are things that can be seen as issues, profitability isn't one of them. For relatively safe, relaxed and reliable source of income, L4 missions net a good profit.
Maybe one option is more flexable missions for example a mas skilled pilot gets a more difficult missions while a newer player gets a slightly relaxed mission. I fly incursions and do other thing than missions for my isk. I only run missions to help new players along and into the game. Or to grind standings for my refining alt, and trade alts. Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have.-á |
LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Jokers Wild.
37
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Posted - 2013.06.10 22:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Getting bored of high sec mission running? Try something more rewarding and exciting.
I don't disagree with you, but you going to take a 2mil sp toon into null sec. This is short sighted and harmful to retaining new players in my opinion. Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have.-á |
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Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
1011
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Posted - 2013.06.10 22:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
Not at all. I made an alt 6 weeks ago for some reason idk why but with 6 weeks of training, she has Caldari Frigate V, Railgun Spec 4, Blaster Spec 4 and all gunnery support skills to 4 along with a few basic fitting skills. She can rat belts just fine in a T1 Merlin. It's a little slow, but for a new player, the income is just fine. 4 decent belts is 20m isk, not including loot or salvage, for a total of about 1 hour of work. That's not bad for a new player at all, plus you can get a little excitement instead of running boring, unrewarding missions all day. Oh god. |
LeMorted'Authur
Federation of Free Miners Jokers Wild.
37
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Posted - 2013.06.10 22:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
But you are a vet, and your skills are very focused and you know what you need to train and how to fly your ship already, before using that toon. This is the issue I want addressed, being new a player is not even going to understand why they need to be that focused.
Where is their viable option if they are bored to death of mining and will leave eve otherwise. Flying it like you stole it, because half of the others in eve have.-á |
Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
1011
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Posted - 2013.06.10 22:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
But you're his friend. You can take him into hostile space and help him rat belts and teach him all the skills he needs to survive. I mean, you do know how to do that stuff, right? Oh god. |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1138
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Posted - 2013.06.11 00:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:Or maybe it's to get people out of high sec.
They should keep us posted on how that's working out for them... Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
Aquila Sagitta
Risk-Averse PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS
41
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Posted - 2013.06.11 02:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
It's simple. If ISK is what you seek... leave highsec. You don't need to be a vet to make isk in non-highsec! |
Dilligafmofo
The Generic Pirate Corporation Fusion.
196
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Posted - 2013.06.11 08:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Take a frigate to low sec. I dropped 5 transporter tags in under an hour yesterday, netting the best part of 600m.
How do you like them apples? |
imbaRabbit
Suddenly rabbit
6
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Posted - 2013.06.11 09:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Mission rewards are OK. You can earn for a PLEX within a day. Of course, I'm talking about having proper skills and knowledge. In case you enjoy slow missions and just poke the NPCs out because you're doing something on a side, you can earn enough ISK for the PLEX within few days of casual playing. Rewards are just fine.
Now, if you have problems with new players as you say you do, then you're doing it wrong. I had few players 'under' me, and I've told them exactly what they should skill-up and exactly what they can do. If you're not doing that, that may be the reason why you can't do various things with them.
Your viable options
1. LOW-sec belt farming.
Take a bunch of destroyers\frigates and go in LOW-sec. Farm the belts and look at the wallet getting pumped by selling clone soldier tags. I would not tell you to take them in NULL-sec since you can earn a lot more from the clone tags at the current time. The market is still not flooded with tags. If you need some guides about LOW-sec ratting, here's a post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3183650#post3183650. It's very profitable, and very easy. Especially in masses.
2. HIGH-sec level IV missions.
Since you're their mentor, you should know how do they feel. Do they want to farm missions? Is there someone who wants to salvage? Can you fit up few salvage destroyers so the functions are split amongst mission runners? What races are they flying? What weapon system do they have? Do they like missiles? You have to ask them all about their wishes and desires. Once when you know what they want to do you can compose fleets. There's no excuse of being low SP. I've been flying support ship (Shield Remote Repairer) and my 'starter' friends had only cruisers. And it was a 'success'. Of course, it's not the most optimal way to finish missions but still. If you want stand behind them, then just stand behind them as a real friend or a mentor.
Luckily I had two Caldari pilots and one Gallente pilot. We've been using combinations of Drakes or Caracals (one member really likes the Caracal) and the Brutix. Everyone was shield tanked and everyone was kiting. Brutix had rails and others had the Heavy missiles. I was flying the Osprey. As I've said, it's not the optimal (the most ISK efficient) way to farm them, but they can do them in that order. It was engaging and fun. We've finished even the 'hardest' missions in Serpentis area: Blockade, Assault. They're hard because of sensor dampening.
3. Exploration (LOW-sec & NULL-sec).
You can fit up the basic frigate fit for exploration and go for it. Teach them what clone jumps are, how they can get it etc. With empty pod and few cheap frigates, you can go in NULL-sec and earn serious ISK. Even if you die, and lose everything it's still going to be an experience but honestly, you should not die if you know what you're doing.
AND YES, MISSIONS HAVE TO CHANGE
But not the rewards or anything else. They have to refresh that content. But still, they should not change them in a way where a casual guy comes from the hard work and has to PvP for the rewards. They have to stay as they are (the concept). Some loot tables have to change (drones) because they suck.
I would go in a direction to create two types of 'security mission':
- The missions which you're familiar with as they are now. But CCP should maybe create the new missions, or do something about their content.
- The PvP missions.
PvP missions would be more engaging. Lesser NPCs, but they will warp-off when they're damaged and similar. It would be a great way to star the PvP lessons. Maybe even put a battleship inside and if you don't kill it within some time limit, he sends a distress call and then his 'buddies' show up to help him out. And because of that, the PvP missions should give you more income than the normal ones, but the loot\bounty tables should not change in normal ones.
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Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
475
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:20:00 -
[18] - Quote
Dilligafmofo wrote:Take a frigate to low sec. I dropped 5 transporter tags in under an hour yesterday, netting the best part of 600m.
How do you like them apples? Bake them while they're fresh. Can't confirm the numbers, but the gist of it seems right.
On a side note, OP, stop using that armor cane for L4s if you still do it. Slow completion times contribute heavily to the issue of low income.
Speaking of different missions for differently skilled and equipped people, you've got L3/L4 missions and then there are incursions, for example.
Or indeed, move to WH/null/whatever. |
Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 11:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
Quote:My fear is very simple, Missions suck. When I was 90 days old or less I used an armor cane to run lvl4's. I had to continuously warp in and out and it may take me the whole time of the bonus pay to finish the mission. I also had to switch out to a bs to finish the site. But it was possible for me as a new player to develop a way for me to do lvl4's.
I'd say the problem was more that you jumped into soloing level 4's wayyyyyy too early. For starters, even with great skills, a T1 BC will have a hard time with the vast majority of level 4's. Your BS of choice should be able to keep range on or web cruisers, and have a full flight of lights to take care of frigates, and I'm surprised that having to constantly warp out, and swap ships, and take longer than bonus to complete missions didn't raise some sort of red flag that made you think "maybe I'm not ready for this". Level 4's are not meant to be done by "new" players, there's just so much more going on in them than level 3's; the most notable things being the need for much higher dps and tank, many more web/scram frigates, and more trigger ships that either cause new spawns or room aggro.
Although I don't go throwing away frigates on a daily basis, for all the long time that I stuck to level 3's, I never had problems buying anything I actually needed, and could get most of anything that I wanted for just playing around with.
As far as the standings thing goes, all that the agent cares about is your highest standing towards that agent. My Minmatar standing is -0.8 after diplomacy (-3.0 before it), and I am able to do level 4 missions with any agent from the corp that I've farmed standing towards. (word of advice: raising your Connections skill to 3 is easy and quick and lets you jump right into level 2 missions with any corp you meet) |
probag Bear
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.06.12 20:04:00 -
[20] - Quote
The problem is not that missions are broken. The problem is that you don't know how to play the game. I am currently running 600-800mil/hr (depending on how many blitzable missions I get; if I could get nothing but Dread Pirate Scarlet, I'd be at well over 1bil) out of L4s. The only extra time I put into this is ~30 minutes of 0.01isking at peak time about every day, and a run around the major trade hubs twice week. Hell, I could just buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders, and I'd still easily have 300mil/hr. |
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
491
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Posted - 2013.06.12 20:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Riot Girl wrote:Or maybe it's to get people out of high sec. They should keep us posted on how that's working out for them...
CCP WHATEVER wrote: It's not working. It seems many player are not interested in going there for some reason.
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Robert Saint
Playright
59
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Posted - 2013.06.13 06:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Estella Osoka wrote:L4 mission rewards are just fine. With max skills, salvaging mission wrecks, and buying the right LP items and reselling; nets players a tidy profit. If you can't make at least 50mil + per hour, you are doing it wrong.
This...
I mission all the time as my primary fun in this game (High sec) and it's easy to make 50m ISK an hour. Most of the time I multi box two accounts and it's much better since it's done in less than half the time per mission and both accounts pull over 100m ISK per hour with salvaging.
I think the problem most new players have is they try to do missions that are just too hard for their skill level at the time.
Here are some time completion guidelines I have found to be realistic.
Level 3 missions = 10 minutes Level 4 missions = Less than one hour with one toon, less than 20 minutes with two toons.
The deal is the toon has to be skilled or it's a bust.
And learn Missiles |
Kara Vix
Sanford and Son Salvage
171
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Posted - 2013.06.13 10:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
probag Bear wrote:The problem is not that missions are broken. The problem is that you don't know how to play the game. I am currently running 600-800mil/hr (depending on how many blitzable missions I get; if I could get nothing but Dread Pirate Scarlet, I'd be at well over 1bil/hr) out of L4s. The only extra time I put into this is ~30 minutes of 0.01isking at peak time about every day, and a run around the major trade hubs twice a week. Hell, I could just buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders, and I'd still easily have 300mil/hr.
This I would love to see! Me thinks you are adding too many zero's. |
imbaRabbit
Suddenly rabbit
25
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Posted - 2013.06.13 13:06:00 -
[24] - Quote
: D, people like to create their own LP:ISK ratios.
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probag Bear
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.06.13 14:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kara Vix wrote:probag Bear wrote:The problem is not that missions are broken. The problem is that you don't know how to play the game. I am currently running 600-800mil/hr (depending on how many blitzable missions I get; if I could get nothing but Dread Pirate Scarlet, I'd be at well over 1bil/hr) out of L4s. The only extra time I put into this is ~30 minutes of 0.01isking at peak time about every day, and a run around the major trade hubs twice a week. Hell, I could just buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders, and I'd still easily have 300mil/hr. This I would love to see! Me thinks you are adding too many zero's.
If you saw, you'd copy, and my LP ratio would plummet.
And to note, those figures aren't for high-sec L4s. Still Empire-faction L4s, naturally. |
Bryla Jax
AeD Corp
7
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Posted - 2013.06.13 14:40:00 -
[26] - Quote
probag Bear wrote:Kara Vix wrote:probag Bear wrote:The problem is not that missions are broken. The problem is that you don't know how to play the game. I am currently running 600-800mil/hr (depending on how many blitzable missions I get; if I could get nothing but Dread Pirate Scarlet, I'd be at well over 1bil/hr) out of L4s. The only extra time I put into this is ~30 minutes of 0.01isking at peak time about every day, and a run around the major trade hubs twice a week. Hell, I could just buy from sell orders and sell to buy orders, and I'd still easily have 300mil/hr. This I would love to see! Me thinks you are adding too many zero's. If you saw, you'd copy, and my LP ratio would plummet. And to note, those figures aren't for high-sec L4s. Still Empire-faction L4s, naturally.
Naturally |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
105
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Posted - 2013.06.14 00:20:00 -
[27] - Quote
Train for a Maelstrom. Train MJD. Train Projectile weapons. Equip a Mael to snipe targets at over 100km. Make sure it has an AB. Warp to L4 mission, align away from rats, activate MJD, keep rats at 100km, shoot till all dead. You can setup a Raven similarly with cruise missiles. You do not need advanced skills, you will only need to farm the standings until you can run those missions. L4s are easy for sniping BS. |
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2013.06.14 11:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
LeMorted'Authur wrote:My fear is very simple, Missions suck. +1
CCP made every agent "quality 20" a couple of years ago and promised to iterate. Guess what they didn't do?
LP stores also need looking at, some are really good, some are really bad, and there is nothing in between. There is precious little that differentiates the LP stores of one NPC corp versus another. Each faction has the "good" LP stores and the "bad" LP stores with no other granulatrity, desireability or anything else for that matter to set them apart from each other.
I rarely run missions anymore. They get old after a while. But if there was a bigger difference in what the different LP stores offered - in terms of BPCs mainly - at least choosing your agents would add a little wrinkle to the standard PVE grind. |
Estella Osoka
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Villore Accords
105
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Posted - 2013.06.14 19:43:00 -
[29] - Quote
Swidgen wrote:LeMorted'Authur wrote:My fear is very simple, Missions suck. +1 CCP made every agent "quality 20" a couple of years ago and promised to iterate. Guess what they didn't do? LP stores also need looking at, some are really good, some are really bad, and there is nothing in between. There is precious little that differentiates the LP stores of one NPC corp versus another. Each faction has the "good" LP stores and the "bad" LP stores with no other granulatrity, desireability or anything else for that matter to set them apart from each other. I rarely run missions anymore. They get old after a while. But if there was a bigger difference in what the different LP stores offered - in terms of BPCs mainly - at least choosing your agents would add a little wrinkle to the standard PVE grind.
If all you are reselling is the BPCs, then you are doing it wrong. |
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