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Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 09:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
At the moment I'm sitting in my Absolution, with Command Ships at 5, and 18m total skillpoints (although inflated by the BC/destroyer skill split, so it's closer to about 10m combat related skill points), and T2 of both medium lasers. It would take about a month and a half to get all my subsystems up to 5 and to start flying around in the Legion. At the moment with my Absolution, one of the biggest issues I have with it is its range and speed for level 4's. My Abso fit is generally: High- 6x Heavy Pulse II's 1x Nosferatu Medium- 10mn AB II Medium Cap Booster II (with 800's) Tracking Computer II (optimal script) Low- 2x Imp Navy Heat Sink II 1x Imp Navy EANM 1x Centum C-type MAR 2x mission specific hardener II's 1x DCU II Rigs- nano pump I nano pump I
For my skills, this puts it at 520 dps multifreq, 480 scorch @ 25km optimal, 670 conflag, and 350-600 mission specific tank, and 400 m/s. On harder missions where I'll need the extra burst tank, I'll usually drop the DCU for an MAR II (giving 600-900 tank), or on easier missions I'll drop the DCU for another heat sink (590 multifreq dps).
Going with pretty much the same fitting pricetag (as I already own the modules), the Legion is showing 400-800 mission specific tank not reliant on cap booster, 640 m/s, and with two tracking computers and two heat sinks, 470 multifreq dps @14km, 600 dps conflag, and 430 scorch dps @ 42km.
The Legion definitely wins at mobility and range, which are the two things bothering me most right now. But are those two really worth the paper dps loss, the increased cost (which could be spent on extra pimp for the Abso), and the training time (which again could be spent on support skills to make my Abso even better). |
John Ratcliffe
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
172
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why aren't you using a BS for Lvl 4s? I suppose you could use a Command Ship to do them, but they aren't exactly optimal... Plus +ša change, plus c'est la m+Žme chose |
Battle BV Master
Executor BV Sovereign Infinity
15
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Either case the rats will die laughing well before you can shoot them. Both ships are horrible choices for lvl 4s |
Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Let's go with.... umm... RP reasons for why I can't use a battleship |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
89
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
A legion will be quicker, even a Zealot is. The extra range lets you apply damage a lot quicker and with the extra speed 50km optimal range is hardly a issue. However if you tank it as hard as this absolution, you will a lot of performance, 2-3 slot tank is generally enough on the Legion if you watch range and transversal. If you are unsure, get a Zealot and try that out. The legion is basically just a Zealot with a bit more dps and tank. Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:50:00 -
[6] - Quote
The Zealot would take even more training time than the legion (31days just to hop into the hull, compared to 23 days for legion), and I can't imagine it coming anywhere close to the same amount of (cap stable) tank. |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
61
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:55:00 -
[7] - Quote
If you insist on going with the Absolution, beams will be vastly superior in the majority of missions, for range reasons. For a few missions, like Damsel in Distress where the rats like to hug you a pulse Absolution will be brutally efficient tho.
But the real answer to Amarr missioning is the Apocalypse/Paladin to be honest. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1186
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Posted - 2013.06.11 10:58:00 -
[8] - Quote
i didn't check the numbers but my gut feeling is that an arty sleipnir would do a better job than an absolution.
and just to drive the point home, pretty much any battleship would do even better (except maybe the scorpion).
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
231
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Posted - 2013.06.11 11:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
^As Caius said, range is one of the biggest problems in missioning with an Absolution, you should use beams unless the mission is short ranged like Damsel.
Also more tank isn't whats holding you back, the main reason to get into a Legion/Zealot is the sweet sweet optimal range bonus. Even then a simple T2 Apocalypse will be outperform all these ships, because it can project it's dps to farther range. If you're going to do missions as a source of income seriously, you should really look into T2 Large Lasers and Amarr BS line. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
89
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Posted - 2013.06.11 11:14:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aplier Shivra wrote:The Zealot would take even more training time than the legion (31days just to hop into the hull, compared to 23 days for legion), and I can't imagine it coming anywhere close to the same amount of (cap stable) tank.
You don't fit it cap stable, you don't really tank it, similar as with the Legion you main tank is range(out ranging NPCs or get close where they can't track you), the small sig and the high speed.
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
324
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Posted - 2013.06.11 11:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
HAM legion unless you're purely missioning in amarr space. |
Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 11:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:HAM legion unless you're purely missioning in amarr space.
Or unless you have zero missile skills |
Corporal Cina
Human Experiments
0
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Posted - 2013.06.11 12:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:i didn't check the numbers but my gut feeling is that an arty sleipnir would do a better job than an absolution.
and just to drive the point home, pretty much any battleship would do even better (except maybe the scorpion).
I second the arty Sleipnir. Choosable damage, fairly good projection. It's not the most efficient boat out there but it does hold its own.
Yes, you can mission in the Legion (laser or HAM) but it won't be very efficient and you will spend most of your time burning towards your targets to get in range. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
142
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
If I calculate correctly, most of your skill points are spent just being able to sit in an Absolution. I doubt you have a lot of support skills, let alone drone or gunnery skills.
The Legions mobility and range make it a better mission boat than the Absolution. I'm guessing here that you don't have drone skills so you won't miss them on the Legion anyways. You can't pimp the Abso much more to speed up your mission running except equipping a third heat sink. The big dps loss from switching to a Legion is partially due to your support skills since most of your dps comes from your CS skill.
I think switching to a Legion is the better choice but you'll need to train some support skills, especially gunnery skills. Also, Amarr offensive subsystem V is a must and a 4 day train.
I'ld also recommend some dps implants, they're cheap for lasers.
Finally, I think a meta tachyon fitted BS will be MUCH better and cheaper, after you train some support skills: capacitor, drones and gunnery. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3738
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:HAM legion unless you're purely missioning in amarr space.
I don't remember the HAM legion having decent DPS or range. Someone refresh my memory - what kind of DPS and range can you expect out of a HAM legion?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Riot Girl
Thundercats The Initiative.
1028
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:18:00 -
[16] - Quote
750 DPS and15-30 km.
Oh god. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3738
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:22:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ah, yeah... a bit higher than I remember on DPS, but still pretty low. Thanks for the refresher.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:If I calculate correctly, most of your skill points are spent just being able to sit in an Absolution. I doubt you have a lot of support skills, let alone drone or gunnery skills.
The Legions mobility and range make it a better mission boat than the Absolution. I'm guessing here that you don't have drone skills so you won't miss them on the Legion anyways. You can't pimp the Abso much more to speed up your mission running except equipping a third heat sink. The big dps loss from switching to a Legion is partially due to your support skills since most of your dps comes from your CS skill.
I think switching to a Legion is the better choice but you'll need to train some support skills, especially gunnery skills. Also, Amarr offensive subsystem V is a must and a 4 day train.
I'ld also recommend some dps implants, they're cheap for lasers.
Finally, I think a meta tachyon fitted BS will be MUCH better and cheaper, after you train some support skills: capacitor, drones and gunnery.
I am sitting on 800k drone sp, enough to use T2 lights effectively (T2 hobgobs giving another 77 dps on top of my previous numbers). Cap skills are maxed and armor are high enough for T2 tank. Gunnery I have all skills at 4 or 5 already, although maxing all dps related skills and upgrading both implants to 5% would add another 75 dps to the Abso's 520, but the proportional difference would be the same for both boats.
I also wouldn't dream of hopping into the Legion's until I had all its subsystems at 5, too expensive of a hull for me to not fly it at its best. |
Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
And as the general consensus seems to be to just use a BS, I guess I can entertain the thought. With large energy turret and Amarr BS skills both at 4, would the Abbadon or Apocalypse be better and why? |
Tsukino Stareine
EVE University Ivy League
328
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Apoc, better projection and application beats more dps for pve and tank is almost always not an issue. Requires t2 pulses to work at its best though |
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Aplier Shivra
1
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Would it still be better even without the T2 pulse? |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3738
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
I would have argued that better damage is preferred over better application - afterall 100% of 500 DPS is less than 70% of 800 DPS. Maybe the best way to say it is that applied damage trumps all, given you have enough tank. And you usually do. :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
142
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Posted - 2013.06.11 20:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Aplier Shivra wrote:Would it still be better even without the T2 pulse? Yes, use tachyons. |
The Djego
Hellequin Inc. Mean Coalition
93
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Posted - 2013.06.12 10:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I would have argued that better damage is preferred over better application - afterall 100% of 500 DPS is less than 70% of 800 DPS. Maybe the best way to say it is that applied damage trumps all, given you have enough tank. And you usually do. :)
-Liang
Well before the patch Abaddon >>> Apocalypse in my opinion. However with the changes to the speed and tracking, I get fairly competitive L4 times with the navy apoc even for stuff where the Abaddon shines, because the higher tracking and range equalize the dps against sub BS targets(not to 100% but it is fairly equal if you look at the volley count) more or less and it mostly only comes down to 1-2 more volleys for the BS. The high speed actually make it a lot better in a many situations the npc groups are not packed in front of you.
Overall the apoc tanks better in a high dps fitting(lower sig, better cap, higher speed), reaches out further and can deal with small stuff quicker. The Abaddon on the other hand is still king when it comes down to situations where you can fully utilize DPS on the target(5-40km with tons of BS\BC stuff), however this situations are in the minority in amarr L4 and Abaddon is a bit to slow to adjust ranges like the Apoc can now(and even on the move with a mwd the tracking bonus helps immensely to keep the dps up).
I would say Apoc and Abaddon are fairly equal now, while the navy apoc with the extra speed, lock speed, extra low + sentry(another 90 DPS) pulls slightly ahead in overall performance and is more enjoyable to fly.
Amarr BS are fully flyable without scorch, I would even say the conflagration option is more important. I very rarely use scorch on the navy Apoc(with 91+16km), it is very handy on the Abaddon(66+16km) but you have to think twice if it is worth the extra cap on the Abaddon compared to standard within 50km(44+16km range).
The new apoc is the better option if you start out with Amarr BS, the cap is better, you got the extra range, speed and tracking really helps. Abaddon is harder to play, quite a bit more flimsy with the resist nerf and can only utilize her full potential with T2 guns(mostly looking at conflag and 4HS to whip the floor with short range themed missions).
Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
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Kara Vix
Sanford and Son Salvage
134
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Posted - 2013.06.12 10:59:00 -
[25] - Quote
I have maxed skills for 3/4 factions command ships-weapon systems and must say the absolution is horrible for missioning, just horrible. As someone previously mentioned, the sleipner will out perform it in all regards. My preferred ship however is the Nighthawk but since I fly with my husband in a Vargur, the symmetry of two ships is terrific. If you are heavily vested in Amarr ships do train for the Paladin but in the meantime that pretty absolution (yes its a beautiful ship) is better off spinning in a hanger. But who knows, when they rework the command ships that may all change. |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
41
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:17:00 -
[26] - Quote
If you are bound and determined to stay sub bs and lasers you might consider the oracle. It is VERY far from ideal. But will give you the good mobility of the Lego with the DPS of a bs to get the gank to tank ratio where L4 is viable.
As said in a number of ways. Amarr ships are beautiful. But they don't perform well in standard missions or many pave situations (outside blood space). You are likely better off blitzing L3 than struggling with L4 while training up for either sentries or macherial. |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
235
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:40:00 -
[27] - Quote
I don't think an Orcale can do L4s unless you snipe and because you can't use an MJD you have to burn to sniper range which can cause trouble if you get webbed/are taking too much damage. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1194
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:I don't think an Orcale can do L4s unless you snipe and because you can't use an MJD you have to burn to sniper range which can cause trouble if you get webbed/are taking too much damage. a tach oracle will work in any mission without webbing frigates right on top of you. if you put an MWD on it, you can kite and snipe almost anything in amarr space. ofc if you DO get webbed (for example in silence the informant or damsel), you will die in a glorious fire.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
235
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Posted - 2013.06.12 12:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:I don't think an Orcale can do L4s unless you snipe and because you can't use an MJD you have to burn to sniper range which can cause trouble if you get webbed/are taking too much damage. a tach oracle will work in any mission without webbing frigates right on top of you, if you put an MWD on it, you can kite and snipe almost anything in amarr space. ofc if you DO get webbed (for example in silence the informant or damsel), you will die in a glorious fire.
Yeah sounds doable, personally never tried it though, you'd have to be pretty ballsy =P |
Froggy Storm
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
41
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Posted - 2013.06.12 12:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:I don't think an Orcale can do L4s unless you snipe and because you can't use an MJD you have to burn to sniper range which can cause trouble if you get webbed/are taking too much damage. a tach oracle will work in any mission without webbing frigates right on top of you, if you put an MWD on it, you can kite and snipe almost anything in amarr space. ofc if you DO get webbed (for example in silence the informant or damsel), you will die in a glorious fire. Yeah sounds doable, personally never tried it though, you'd have to be pretty ballsy =P
Like I said its possible but really it won't be worth more than the thrill. The Lego is really susceptible to the same issues as well. Particularly to spider drones. Once it gets webbed and scrammed its a really expensive coffin most of the time. And for my money, running L3s in an AF is way more fun. And who doesn't think the ret and veng are sexy internet spaceships. |
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